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Full Grown Tree, Can God create ?

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DiscipleDave

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Can God create a rock, that in every way appears to be millions of years old ?

another Question:

Can God create a full grown tree??

These are simple questions, and remember He is God and can do anything, by merely speaking it.

Let us examine this Tree. pooooof God creates the full grown tree, now scientists come along 5 minutes later and see this tree, they cut it in half, and look at the rings, and determine, by the rings, that the tree is 300 years old, they print newspapers about it, they spread this information all over the world, they have it now taught in schools. Now here is the Truth regardless what the scientist believe, when they cut the tree down, it was only 5 minutes old.

Now you see to me this is a brillant plan of God, knowing that the evolution and creation thing in the last days was going to be very controversial. He created rocks that in all reality appeared in every way to be a billion years old, like when He created that full grown tree above, the tree itself said it was 300 years old based on scientific facts how to tell the age of a tree. So God created the entire world with billion year old rocks, he even set the stars and galaxies and everything else to make it appear to be billions of years old. Now God is quite clear how He created the EArth and everything in it, and He makes sure that, that story survives for 6,000 years to the present day where we are at, and lo and behold Everyone knows how the Bible says God created the Earth, and in how many days He said He created it in.

where getting to the brilliant part, Now God has devised a way ( and done this at creation, He is so brilliant ) so that He can weed out those who believe the Bible through faith or or those who believe what they see with their eyes. Isn't that Brilliant. You see everyone who believes in evolution have alltogether lost faith in what the Words of God clearly say, they have lost Faith because of what the scientists have told them. and you know something here is what is ironic, you can't blame the scientists, when they date these rocks, they in every way appear to be a million years old, that is what the data shows. the problem is man who are suppose to believe the Bible by and through FAITH only, have taken these facts that these scientists have come up with, and have gone about to change Scriptures to fit into what the facts show. and this is wrong.

Let us look at the Tree again, God created that tree full grown, He can do that you know, He's God. and He writes down in the Words of God that He created that Tree full grown, then one hour later some scientist say they have discovered the Tree that the Words of God was talking about. on this planet, there was only this tree and no other, so all the people of this planet, having the Words of God for years see this tree, now according to the Words of God that they were reading, God created that tree in one hour. EVery single person believed that it was created by God in one hour, except for one person, a scientist that did not believe in a God and he was going to prove that it was not True. So this one scientist cuts into the tree, takes samples, prods and pokes, does all kinds of tests. then he goes to all the people and says, this tree is not an hour old, it is three hundred years old and i can prove it, i have the facts right here that prove it is over 300 years old, so he shows them, and yes all the facts point to what he was saying is true. many lost their faith in the Bible when it was proven that it was not an hour old like the Bible said, but was 300 years old like the scientist said. so now you have a division those who believed the tree was 300 years old based on the facts that they see, and those who believed it was an hour old because that is what the Words of God said it was, and they believed it.
Then something else happens, many who had lost faith in the Bible, started thinking how can we still be religious and believe the facts as we see them, they would alter the Words of God to try to fit the facts, and that is what they did, and there was many different ways they tried to do it, they would say maybe an hour with God is 300 years to us, and if that is the case, then the Bible doesn't really mean one hour old, but it really means it is 300 years old. So now we can believe the Bible again and still believe the tree is 300 years old based on the facts that we are told. and even some of the things that they said to the others caused even those who had faith to believe in what they were saying. When God comes down to visit these people, and take those who have faith in Him and His words, who do you think He is going to take, those who change His Words to fit what they believe, or those who merely believe, because that is what the Words of God say and teach. surely i don't have to answer that one.

Truth is, the Bible say God created the earth in 6 days, those who are of the Faith, believe exactly what it says, and they are justified by their faith. Those who think things differently then what the Bible teaches, are those who have lost thier faith because of all the fact humans say is FACTS.

Here is the Truth, if God can create a full grown tree, with rings and all in less than a second by merely saying "TREE" that in all reality APPEARS to be hundreds of years old ( by the rings you can age a tree ), then evolution can be thrown out the window

Here is yet another Truth, God created the Earth and everything in it to appear to us in every way to be millions of years old based on our crude instraments and theories, and wrote in His Words exactly how He did it, the Truth, to see who would believe through Faith what the Words of God say and teach or believe what they see and hear from what scientists says is fact.

Here is another Truth, the God i worship and serve could have created the entire Earth in a matter of a few seconds full grown trees and all, full grown animals and all, but chose to do it, in a week to set a standard of a week for us. On the first day He did this, and the second day He did that, showing that even in His creation of the earth, that there was order to it. also He worked six days and rested on the seventh, He did this also as an example for us, that we should work six days and rest on the seventh, and God Himself did this, showing us the importance of doing this also. You see weeks are on earth, just as there are weeks in Heaven, although a week in Heaven is 7,000 years compared to 7 days here on earth, and even in Heaven they observe the sabbath, this is evident because God Himself said He rested on the Sabbath day, not to mention the 1000 years at the end of the week, is also that sabbath day in Heaven.

You believe what the Bible says, that God created the earth and everything in it in 6 days, you do well
You believe what scientists tell you and go about to change what Genesis clearly says and teaches, into something other then what it says, you have lost your Faith in His Words.

Woe to those who change the Bible to fit their belief, instead of changing their belief to fit the Bible.

If the Bible says God created the Earth in six days, and a person does not believe that, in my opinion that person is anti-christ, because they do not believe what the Words of God teach, and the Words of God are from God, and they are His Words, and they are True.

If the Genesis account is not True, well shoot, lets also say the Matthew account isn't true either. aaaaahhh why stop there i didn't like what JOB went through and scientist say that it isn't possible to go through that and live, so lets throw out the book of JOB. funny thing, scientist say it is impossible for a dead man in the grave to come back to life, we should throw out all the books that refer to Jesus bringing people back to life, thats just not possible. Oh let us throw out any book which talks about the flood, scientists have proven that could not have had happened. So Genesis, Joshua, Psalms, Matthew, Luke, 2 Peter, and Revelations, all these Books need to be removed, because they speak of an event that never happened according to scientists.

This is nonsence, there are three types of people in this world 1) those who believe what the Word of God says 2) those who don't believe what the Word of God says 3) Those who don't believe what the Word of God says, but changed it in such a way so they can say they do believe what it says ( an example of this is when a person says they believe in the Words of God, yet they believe in Evolution, and when you ask them if they believe in the Bible yet they believe in evolution, how can they believe in Genesis and evolution, and they will say, oh i believe in Genesis, it is alogory, or mystical, or symbolic, or whatever else they come up with these days as to not believe what it says. i have had people who believed in evolution tell me they believe Every verse in the Bible, when i asked them about Genesis, they said " Oh thats a poem " lol a poem is what they believed, you see if it is a poem, then it is OK not to believe it word for word, therefore they can say the believe all the verses in the Bible because the verses they don't believe in, are poems, or alogory, or symbolic, or whatever other fancy word they call it, as to not believe what it says. they are decieved and know not the Truth. They have been led astray by their earthly eyes and ears, and refuse to believe with their hearts.

Heres another tidbit of information concerning carbon dating, which is how they tell how old something is. and this is a FACT, if you are carbon date something you will not get the same reading no matter how many times you carbon date the same object. also another FACT, which they have proven. you can take a human bone, that is 80 years old, carbon date it, and it will read any where from 200 years to 1,000 years old, go figure, the bone is 80 years old, but carbon dating says it is a thousand years old. lol this method is used to this day to determine the age of things, and they know full well, and even admitted, that it is not accurate. lol
i am so done talking about this nonsence, turning page now.

^i^
 
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The Lady Kate

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DiscipleDave said:
Can God create a rock, that in every way appears to be millions of years old ?

Sure. Why would He?



another Question:

Can God create a full grown tree??

These are simple questions, and remember He is God and can do anything, by merely speaking it.

Except lie.

So the question is... not could, but would God create a full grown tree, complete with rings that tell a past that never happened?




Which means God put some effort into deceiving us.



Yep... He tricked us real good, then.


But... having established that God's actions are deceptive, what are His words now worth?



Not really... God lies to humanity, and damns those who fall for it. Pretty sick, actually.


The data which God falsely planted.

the problem is man who are suppose to believe the Bible by and through FAITH only, have taken these facts that these scientists have come up with, and have gone about to change Scriptures to fit into what the facts show. and this is wrong.

So God commits another wrongness to solve it?





Any notion that God is trustworthy can also be thrown out the window.




So God has set a trap... making us curious and inquisitive, and condemning those who actually act on it.

i am so done talking about this nonsence, turning page now.

^i^

As you can plainly see... I was done reading this nonsense quite some time ago.
 
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Dannager

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I knew where the OP was going by the beginning of the second paragraph. Your argument is not new. It is not creative. It is not terribly insightful. It does not exhibit exceptional grammar, spelling, capitalization or punctuation. It has been torn apart countless times on this board. The Bible is not a completely literal set of texts. Also, your facts are wrong. But you're done talking about this so I won't bother to actually point out the inconcistencies. I'm not a big fan of hit-n-run threads.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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If the world is only 6000 years old, and is expected to last only a few thousand years to begin with - then how would it even be possible to have a rock that could look millions of years old. It makes as much sense as having a computer or a car that looks millions of years old. If something is not ment to exist that long, how could it look as though it had?
 
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rmwilliamsll

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does anyone have a good FAQ on the omphalos problem? we need to put this issue into the PRATT list, we've had perhaps 3 good threads on the issue in just the last few weeks.
http://www.christianforums.com/t2643527-apparent-age-theory.html


http://www.geocities.com/darrickdean/age.html

is certainly a good start. i like the fact that he has the idea of receipts in the section on the water into wine, something we just talked about in terms of labels accompanying the wine.

however he does not go into the problem of last thursdayism nor into the philosophic issue of "the brains in the vat" nor Descartes demon or even Morton's demon. all crucial areas of the omphalos question.

however the obvious joy that the OP author feels at discovering this issue is nice and refreshing, even if he is wrong, he is at least thinking. *grin* and thinking passionately. which despite everything else said here, is a good and rather rare combination.

it would be nice if some of the threads here attempted to pull together references and ideas into FAQ type of written. even links list would be a start. it doesnt seem like we get much useful work done here. rats.
 
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DiscipleDave

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Wow, look at the LOVE in these POSTS, all i did in my statment above is voice my opinion on what i believed, and did not attack any person here, why then the attack on me ? Does God give me the right to believe whatever we want? Yes, if then you do not believe what i believe, fine, show me Scriptures that disprove it. So far after reading all these posts concerning what i have said, i was belitttled, more or less called stupid because i didn't address other issues, my grammer was made fun of, and these are supposedly Christians. What did i do to you personally ? NOthing. i did not say anything to anyone in here. what i did do is voice my opinion on what i believed, if you don't agree then move one, better to say nothing, then to cause strife, or cause someone to be offended. Now if you don't agree, reply why you do not agree. you don't have to critize me, call me names, or make fun of my grammer in order to Christian like discuss why you don't agree.

In the above post there is a statement over and over again, that God tricked us, AS IF THAT IS WHAT I HAVE SAID, Never did though. Here is a FACT and is undisputable because they are what the Words of God say:

Genesis 1:11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.


Now the Bible, the Words of God say that God created plants and trees and grass and herb on the third day. That is what the Words of God say and teach, What are your words oh man, Do you also say what the Words of God teach that God created Trees on the third day, or do you teach something different then the Words of God ? Now i am this day critized because i believe the Bible which says God created the trees on the third day, He did not trick us, because He wrote in HIs Words that He created the Trees on the Third day, it is only a trick that you believe man over what the Words of God say.

The only reason i brought up the topic about a Tree, is because the Bible is quite clear He created the trees on the 3rd day. That is why i asked, can God create a tree fully grown ? Yes He can, you ask WHY WOULD HE, Well He did because that is what He said He did, He clearly said on the third day HE created the trees and plants and such, Hello. HE DID MAKE FULL GROWN TREES BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE SAID HE DID. It is not my fault you deny what He said He did on the third day, matters of fact you deny Everything He said according to His creation given to us in a Record called Genesis. If then you believe in what the scientists say INSTEAD of what God clearly says in Genesis, who is the one being tricked and decieved.

Genesis 2:1: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3: And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


OK i believe what it says here, i believe because they are the Words of God, God rested on the seventh DAY, is it my fault you don't believe it was a DAY, No, that is your fault you don't believe the Words of God and what they say, because you choose to listen to the Words of men and what they say.

Genesis is quite clear How God created the Heavens and the Earth, and frankly i am appauled that anyone would ever question how God said He did it, This is where i have said God's people, those who are True Christians believe through FAITH, ( by the way FAITH being a requirement for SALVATION ) while others lose their Faith because of the evidence.
This is why i brought up can God make a tree full Grown, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE DID ON THE THIRD DAY AS SCRIPTURES TEACH. What gets me, people will say Yeah, He can but why would He ? Hello He did because that is what He said He did, Did He not say on the Third DAy He created the trees and plants and herbs and such
You know i guess all the Christians before this evil and perverted generation, died believing a lie, because i will tell you the Truth all the Christians in the past, even the Disicples of Jesus Christ all died believing full well what the Old Testament taught about the creation of the Earth, they all believed it through FAITH and they are justified. This generation though somehow thinks they have some kind of devine knowledge that proves the Genesis creation story is a lie. based solely on the evidence presented unto them, instead of believing by Faith that God created it the way God says He did.

Funny thing here. These same people will believe in Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because the Words of God says He is, yet they will not believe other parts of the Bible, because of their doubts and lack of Faith. What then, these people can pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe in. they know not the Truth. The Words of God are that, they are the Words of the Almighty God, and these people question it. WOW, hello all you are doing is asking for it.

Here is the Truth, and let me die a horrible miserable long death if it is not the Truth.
If what you believe, contradicts even one verse in the Bible, then what you believe is WRONG.

God says He created the trees in a day, if your belief is something other then that, i assure you, YOU ARE WRONG, not because i, DiscipleDave thinks your wrong, but because the Bible clearly says your wrong, if you believe something that is contrary to the Bible.

i have warned you, you will have no excuse come judgement Day, when God asks you " Why did you not believe MY WORDS " and you will have to say " Because Lord, the evidence given to me by man, shows that your words can't be right " There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

it is written :

Mk:10:15: Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Have you recieved the Genesis account of creation as a little child ??? or do you think you know more then God because you have the evidence that Genesis account could not have happened the way God said it did.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Rom:16:17: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Doctrine says God created the Earth in 7 days, those who teach things different then this are in fact causing divisions, and we should avoid them.

1Tm:6:3: If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Do you consent that Genesis happened exactly as Genesis says God created the Earth, or do you consent to men and what they say is the evidence?
4: He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,


You see, everyone in the past, believed The Bible which said God created the Earth in 7 days, they all believed it without ever questioning it. ( thats FAITH ) but this generation dotes about guestions because of evidence that has arisen, they strife over words, such as What is a DAY ? then they come up with evil surmisings believing things which are CONTRARY to the Words of God and think they are righteous in doing so, and then they critisize those who merely believe what the Words of God say, needing no evidence, because somehow they think they have this devine knowledge that it didn't happen the way the Bible says it did. Then they go about teaching their doctrines to try to get other persuaded to believe as they do.
i will choose to believe God not what they say, i will choose to believe the Words of God over what man says is evidence.

God says in Genesis, that He created the Earth in six days, WOE to them who are calling Him a llar because they don't believe He did. Woe unto them indeed

Do i say all this to upset anyone, God forbid, i love you all, and truly desire for you to come back to the Faith, that is to merely believe the Words of God by FAITH, and not what you see with your earthly eyes or hear with your earthly ears. i truly want you to come back to the Faith, choose God over what man says, i would like you to stop teaching things contrary to what the Words of God say. i have written all that i have written to you because i love you and desire to see you in Heaven.

And to the one who made a comment about my grammer, i do appoligize that i am not near as smart as you are, but i don't think Jesus will love me any less because my grammer is not good.

5: Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

im sorry but anyone who claims something is Truth, which is contrary to sound doctrine is destitute of the Truth. therefore from such i will do as instructed by God and will withdraw myself.

i love you all, and pray you will come back to the Truth, which is what the Words of God teach us, and not the words of men, nor the evidence.

^i^
 
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rmwilliamsll

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when i read postings like these all i can think of is the passion and how useful it can be when coupled to careful hermeneutics and exegesis.

it's like all the little kids at church running around. i really want to stop them and tell each of the little dynamos to save some of that energy, for they will need it when they are 50+.

perhaps it is just part of getting old (note, not older but old), i just don't have the time or energy to go through these and analyze what is going on.

the OP
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22639293&postcount=1
is 2000 words long
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22650527&postcount=10
is 1846 words long

fundamentally the problem with creation with apparent age or omphalos coupled with a composition error that salvation is tied to a particular view (YECist) of Genesis 1-5 and doesn't make sense decoupled from it.


the passion is misplaced, everyone on this forum claims to be a Christian. you are preaching to the choir. for unbelievers to preach to (or at) try:
http://www.christianforums.com/f70-creation-evolution.html
or GA. but be aware, they are not nearly as nice as we are here *grin broadly*
 
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muaxiong

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The Lady Kate said:
Hope my CF character doesn't cause blindness...

It really slows down my connection speed having all that needless graphic enhancements.

Not according to the OP.... WE didn't put 300 rings on that tree...

I agree, but we do interpret that the number of tree rings will give us a good indication of how old it is. But that was not what I was after at all, what I was after is that as human beings it is in our nature to invent truths apart from the Word of God, it is then that we often deceive ourselves. God may often test us but he does not deceive us.
 
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The Lady Kate

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All we did was show you the theological problems with your position... which would go a long way to show why it gets little support.

what i did do is voice my opinion on what i believed, if you don't agree then move one, better to say nothing, then to cause strife, or cause someone to be offended.

Perhaps a debate forum is not the place for you...


Now if you don't agree, reply why you do not agree. you don't have to critize me, call me names, or make fun of my grammer in order to Christian like discuss why you don't agree.

I for one already covered the reasons for my disagreement.

In the above post there is a statement over and over again, that God tricked us, AS IF THAT IS WHAT I HAVE SAID, Never did though.

Did you not say that God made a tree that looks 300 years old, rings and all, but actually is not?




God wrote the Bible Himself?

That is why i asked, can God create a tree fully grown ? Yes He can, you ask WHY WOULD HE, Well He did because that is what He said He did, He clearly said on the third day HE created the trees and plants and such, Hello.

So Why would God create a tree on the third day and make it look like it had been created long before that?



Did the possibility that you're reading Genesis as literal history, but that it is not literal history, occur to you?

Genesis is quite clear How God created the Heavens and the Earth, and frankly i am appauled that anyone would ever question how God said He did it,

Again, perhaps then a debate forum is not the place for you... too many questions here.

This is where i have said God's people, those who are True Christians believe through FAITH, ( by the way FAITH being a requirement for SALVATION ) while others lose their Faith because of the evidence.

Faith and literalism are not the same things.


And made them look fully grown, with a past and a history that never happened?




Here is the Truth, and let me die a horrible miserable long death if it is not the Truth.

Well, this is the first time I ever saw a fundamentalist condemn himself.


If what you believe, contradicts even one verse in the Bible, then what you believe is WRONG.

And what does the Bible mean? (Not what does it say, but what does it mean?)



Ah, here are the usual threats of Hell and damnation we're accustomed too.

Isn't it possible you're misreading the Bible? Calling something literal when it is actually allegorical?


And to the one who made a comment about my grammer, i do appoligize that i am not near as smart as you are, but i don't think Jesus will love me any less because my grammer is not good.

And yet you believe Jesus will love us less (in fact, not love us at all) because we think his writing is more poetic than you do.

Please pick a standard and stay with it.

And while we're at it, lowering your font size would also help. Large letters don't sound any more correct than smaller ones.
 
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The Lady Kate

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We know for a fact that trees grow new rings every year...We also know why trees grow new rings every year. nobody invented that, it's a part of the natural process which God set into motion.


So if we cut down a tree and count 300 rings on it, what reason could we possibly have not to say that the tree is 300 years old?
 
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muaxiong

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The Lady Kate said:
We know for a fact that trees grow new rings every year...

Do we reall? Be careful what you call fact vs what is interpreted. Some trees in fact like the Carribian pine can put on 4 to 5 rings a year due to wet spells. Some trees like bristle cone pines will even go a year without growing a ring. So much for estimating an exact age of a tree based on the number of rings. The only sure way of knowing a trees age is to know when it was planted!

We also know why trees grow new rings every year. nobody invented that, it's a part of the natural process which God set into motion.

With a full grown tree first I hope? Factually what we do know is that trees can grow a few rings a year due to wet spells or not grow a year when there is a dryspell.

So if we cut down a tree and count 300 rings on it, what reason could we possibly have not to say that the tree is 300 years old?

Actually what we can accurately say is that it has exactly 300 rings, and that pretty much is all that can be said to be a fact, the age part comes by through interpretation.
 
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Mallon

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DiscipleDave, if you can't take criticism, then please don't post here, for this is the forum where Creationists and TE's comment on and criticize each other's ideas. If you want to be told how great your idea is and not have to listen to refutation, then please post in the Creationism subforum.
That said, I would like to respond to a few points in your speech, if you will allow me.
matters of fact you deny Everything He said according to His creation given to us in a Record called Genesis.
There's another record we have to deal with: God's Creation, through which He states in the Scriptures we can learn about Him.
This is where i have said God's people, those who are True Christians believe through FAITH
Let's get one thing straight: We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour and nothing else. I resent your implying that us TEs are not "True Christians" because we don't necessarily interpret the entire book of Genesis literally.
Do i say all this to upset anyone, God forbid, i love you all
I'm sorry, but while I don't doubt your intentions, your holier-than-thou attitude doesn't convey such a feeling of love.
i do appoligize that i am not near as smart as you are, but i don't think Jesus will love me any less because my grammer is not good.
No, but it would certainly help us all to understand you better. Using a smaller font couldn't hurt either.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Ah... learning something new every day. So the rings on a tree tell us how many wet spells it's gone through... in many parts of the world, that amounts to one rainy season per year... but there are exceptions.

But the idea of 300 rings = 300 wet spells = + or - 300 years is not so farfetched. If those wet spells never happened, there's be no reason to have rings, agreed?


Actually what we can accurately say is that it has exactly 300 rings, and that pretty much is all that can be said to be a fact, the age part comes by through interpretation.

A lot comes by through interpretation... including everything we know from the Bible.

Faith and reason, working together, seldom disappoint.
 
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muaxiong

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The Lady Kate said:
But the idea of 300 rings = 300 wet spells = + or - 300 years is not so farfetched. If those wet spells never happened, there's be no reason to have rings, agreed?

Tree rings for all practical purposes simply represent growth, to conclude that it can be an accurate measurement of a trees age is pushing it a bit.

A lot comes by through interpretation... including everything we know from the Bible.

Agreed, however it it must be noted that there is a difference between interpreting the world through scripture and interpreting scripture through the world - the former would be my conviction.

Faith and reason, working together, seldom disappoint.

I would agree, however faith should always lead reason and not the other way around - after all who can say that it is by reason first that they have come to believe in Christ?
 
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