Full believers vs partial believers - Can the "Saved" be saved?

[zeland2236]

It says "We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. "

So, it says nothing here in this verse(s) about private interpretations all of course cannot help but do as soon as they hear or read, but instead that the scripture is from God, not men.

The origin of scripture is not of private interpretations of events by the men called prophets...but instead scripture is from God Himself, through agency of the Spirit.

Dear Halbhh.

I think you missed the point. We are not talking about the origin of scripture, but the individual protestant private interpretation of scripture. Also you still did not answer my question about 2 Peter 3:16-18 - The two verses go together. I will put the question another way. Who is the official interpreter of scripture? Also, please don't forget to answer the question about 2 Peter 3:16-18.

Thanks

zeland

 

[Major1]

All of what you said (your conclusions) is just your private interpretation of scripture, which scripture condemns 2 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:16-18. as for works, by works is a man justified, and not by faith alone - James 2:24 (14-26)

I can not agree with you my friend.

The Scriptures you used u=in John and Mathew certainly do not support the RCC practice of penance.

RCC doctrine of “penance,” or their “sacramental” system is not Biblical. Penance is one of their “seven sacraments” – baptism, confirmation, penance, the Eucharist (communion), extreme unction (last rites), holy orders, and marriage.

All seven of these so-called sacraments are unscriptural. The RCC teaches that these sacraments are essential for salvation, though there is no such thing as assurance of salvation in the RCC.

The Bible does not contradict itself. You also used the text of Matthew 28:18-20. There is no mention there of confessing sins to a priest. Our Lord said His disciples were to “teach all nations” (“so send I you” – John 20:21) and then they were to baptize their converts.

The text is similar to Mark 16:15, 16. Christians are to go into all the world preaching the Gospel. There is no mention here of confessing sins to a priest. In fact, there are no priests in the NT at all!!!!!

The NT church has two offices – that of the bishop (pastor or elder) and deacon (I Tim. 3).

In Luke 24:47, our Lord mentions “repentance and remission of sins.” But repentance is not the same as penance.

Repentance means a change of mind. This leads to a change in direction. The sinner was against God – at enmity with God – the wrath of God was abiding on him. But now he has repented! Now he has changed sides. Now he loves God and hates sin. Now he agrees with God.

 

[Major1]

What is the "clear meaning" you refer to? Peter says no private interpretation. What about 2 Peter 3:16-18 - is it meaningless?

the implication is that we should not use an obscure or difficult passage to contradict the clear teaching of other Scriptures. Reasonable and honest Christians may disagree quite strongly over the meaning of some things in the Bible. However, we cross a dangerous line when we distort the meaning of any passage to try to support our position on some theological argument.
What does 2 Peter 3:16 mean?

 

[zeland2236]

I can not agree with you my friend.

The Scriptures you used u=in John and Mathew certainly do not support the RCC practice of penance.

RCC doctrine of “penance,” or their “sacramental” system is not Biblical. Penance is one of their “seven sacraments” – baptism, confirmation, penance, the Eucharist (communion), extreme unction (last rites), holy orders, and marriage.

All seven of these so-called sacraments are unscriptural. The RCC teaches that these sacraments are essential for salvation, though there is no such thing as assurance of salvation in the RCC.

The Bible does not contradict itself. You also used the text of Matthew 28:18-20. There is no mention there of confessing sins to a priest. Our Lord said His disciples were to “teach all nations” (“so send I you” – John 20:21) and then they were to baptize their converts.

The text is similar to Mark 16:15, 16. Christians are to go into all the world preaching the Gospel. There is no mention here of confessing sins to a priest. In fact, there are no priests in the NT at all!!!!!

The NT church has two offices – that of the bishop (pastor or elder) and deacon (I Tim. 3).

In Luke 24:47, our Lord mentions “repentance and remission of sins.” But repentance is not the same as penance.

Repentance means a change of mind. This leads to a change in direction. The sinner was against God – at enmity with God – the wrath of God was abiding on him. But now he has repented! Now he has changed sides. Now he loves God and hates sin. Now he agrees with God.

Dear Major,

Thanks for your reply. All the sacraments are biblical. Below are the main passages where our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Confession. Also read Chapters 4 & 5 of Leviticus, where there are numerous examples of confessing sins to the human priest, and the priest makes intersession for the sinner to be forgiven.


1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. John is telling the people to confess their sins, and it seems as if the people responded. See the next verse below.

Acts 19:17-19 “And this became known to all the Jews and the Gentiles that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18: And many of them that believed, came confessing and declaring their deeds. 19 And many of them who had followed curious arts, brought together their books, and burnt them before all…”

Matthew 9:5-8: “For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He said to the sick man, Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thy house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they were filled with fear, and glorified God, who had given such power unto men”.

Jesus here tells us that He has authority on earth to forgive sins, and proves it with miraculous healings, and then Scripture notes this same authority was given to “men” (plural). Here Matthew prefigures Christ’s intention to give such authority to men (the apostles and their successors). John clearly shows that this is Christ’s intention in chapter 20 of his gospel. See the next paragraph below.

John 20:19-23 “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20: And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21: He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22: When he had said this, He breathed on them; and he said to them: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit. 23: whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”.

“He breathed on them” – Only in two places in scripture does God breath on man – to indicate the importance of the action that is to follow.

“As the Father hath sent me, I also send you” - in other words, continue the mission that I have started here on earth. Do everything that I have done, including forgiving sins in My name. This was the Apostle’s commission to begin the ministry of reconciliation. So Christ has delegated, to the Apostles, and their successors, the power (authority) to forgive sins in His name. Christ re-confirms this commission in Matthew 28:19-20, when He gives the apostles a general commission to teach all nations everything he taught them. Everything includes the forgiving of sins.


John 20:19-23 is where Christ establishes the “ministry of reconciliation” that St. Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 – “But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19: For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing to them their sins; and He hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20: For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God”.

“exhorting by us” - Christ is working through the Apostles to bring His forgiveness to men by establishing a “Ministry of reconciliation”. So Paul clearly indicates that the Apostles are to be involved in a ministry of bringing God’s forgiveness to men. Also consider the following.

There are also many other scripture passages that refer to the sacrament of confession, but the above ones will do to start with.

zeland

PS, You might find the following book helpful.

 

[Major1]

Dear Major,

Thanks for your reply. All the sacraments are biblical. Below are the main passages where our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Confession. Also read Chapters 4 & 5 of Leviticus, where there are numerous examples of confessing sins to the human priest, and the priest makes intersession for the sinner to be forgiven.


1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. John is telling the people to confess their sins, and it seems as if the people responded. See the next verse below.

Acts 19:17-19 “And this became known to all the Jews and the Gentiles that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18: And many of them that believed, came confessing and declaring their deeds. 19 And many of them who had followed curious arts, brought together their books, and burnt them before all…”

Matthew 9:5-8: “For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He said to the sick man, Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thy house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they were filled with fear, and glorified God, who had given such power unto men”.

Jesus here tells us that He has authority on earth to forgive sins, and proves it with miraculous healings, and then Scripture notes this same authority was given to “men” (plural). Here Matthew prefigures Christ’s intention to give such authority to men (the apostles and their successors). John clearly shows that this is Christ’s intention in chapter 20 of his gospel. See the next paragraph below.

John 20:19-23 “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20: And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21: He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22: When he had said this, He breathed on them; and he said to them: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit. 23: whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”.

“He breathed on them” – Only in two places in scripture does God breath on man – to indicate the importance of the action that is to follow.

“As the Father hath sent me, I also send you” - in other words, continue the mission that I have started here on earth. Do everything that I have done, including forgiving sins in My name. This was the Apostle’s commission to begin the ministry of reconciliation. So Christ has delegated, to the Apostles, and their successors, the power (authority) to forgive sins in His name. Christ re-confirms this commission in Matthew 28:19-20, when He gives the apostles a general commission to teach all nations everything he taught them. Everything includes the forgiving of sins.


John 20:19-23 is where Christ establishes the “ministry of reconciliation” that St. Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 – “But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19: For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing to them their sins; and He hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20: For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God”.

“exhorting by us” - Christ is working through the Apostles to bring His forgiveness to men by establishing a “Ministry of reconciliation”. So Paul clearly indicates that the Apostles are to be involved in a ministry of bringing God’s forgiveness to men. Also consider the following.

There are also many other scripture passages that refer to the sacrament of confession, but the above ones will do to start with.

zeland

PS, You might find the following book helpful.


View attachment 230074

I appreciate your zeal for your RCC religion and you are to be commended for your faith to it.

However, I must once again say to you that I can not agree with you as the Catholic Sacraments are NOT BIBLICAL. Please investigate and understand this fact...…..Protestant churches such as the Lutherans and Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists, only have two Sacraments; namely,
1). Holy Communion
2). Water Baptism.
Neither the terms “sacrament” nor “holy communion” are found anywhere in the Bible.

The Church of Rome proclaims her seven sacraments as necessary for salvation and that justification before God is given through the sacrament of Baptism. Thus she officially teaches...………
“Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.”

Now YOU have learned that teaching very well but that teaching IS NOT Biblical. IT is the teaching of the Catholic church but it is not the Teaching of the Creator.

To understand therefore, what the Lord says about justification in His Word, is of uttermost importance. It is necessary to see if it is by Baptism that someone is born again, or if it is simply a question of believing on the Lord Christ Jesus by grace through faith. It is necessary therefore to define justification biblically, and to determine its location.

In spite of clear Biblical teaching, the Catholic Church claims that the actions and rituals of men are the effective means of grace. The sacraments are declared to be necessary for salvation and the means of grace. This teaching is so emphatic that Sacramental grace through their physical sacraments is declared to be the grace of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Church of Rome officially teaches...………….

“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ‘Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament.”

“The whole liturgical life of the [Roman Catholic] Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments. There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.”

In Scripture, however, “the God of all grace” by means of His Word directly and personally, seeks, finds, and saves His people. Salvation is God’s gift to the believer. It is credited to him based on Christ’s finished work on the cross...….
“Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
Salvation and the Sacraments | Berean Beacon

God’s direct action shows His Graciousness to us, so that our eyes of faith are fixed on Him...……
“For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Looking to physical signs to give “sacramental grace” and calling that “the grace of the Holy Spirit” is literally a blasphemy against the all Holy God. It not only denigrates the Person and work of the Holy Spirit, but it presupposes that His power can be controlled and confined within in the Church of Rome’s seven sacraments.

Now Mr. Zeland, you are free to believe whatever you choose to believe. However, you cannot do that and claim the Bible says that it is acceptable when in fact it is the RCC and not the Scriptures.

 

[zeland2236]

I appreciate your zeal for your RCC religion and you are to be commended for your faith to it.

However, I must once again say to you that I can not agree with you as the Catholic Sacraments are NOT BIBLICAL. Please investigate and understand this fact...…..Protestant churches such as the Lutherans and Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists, only have two Sacraments; namely,
1). Holy Communion
2). Water Baptism.
Neither the terms “sacrament” nor “holy communion” are found anywhere in the Bible.

The Church of Rome proclaims her seven sacraments as necessary for salvation and that justification before God is given through the sacrament of Baptism. Thus she officially teaches...………
“Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.”

Now YOU have learned that teaching very well but that teaching IS NOT Biblical. IT is the teaching of the Catholic church but it is not the Teaching of the Creator.

To understand therefore, what the Lord says about justification in His Word, is of uttermost importance. It is necessary to see if it is by Baptism that someone is born again, or if it is simply a question of believing on the Lord Christ Jesus by grace through faith. It is necessary therefore to define justification biblically, and to determine its location.

In spite of clear Biblical teaching, the Catholic Church claims that the actions and rituals of men are the effective means of grace. The sacraments are declared to be necessary for salvation and the means of grace. This teaching is so emphatic that Sacramental grace through their physical sacraments is declared to be the grace of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Church of Rome officially teaches...………….

“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ‘Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament.”

“The whole liturgical life of the [Roman Catholic] Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments. There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.”

In Scripture, however, “the God of all grace” by means of His Word directly and personally, seeks, finds, and saves His people. Salvation is God’s gift to the believer. It is credited to him based on Christ’s finished work on the cross...….
“Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
Salvation and the Sacraments | Berean Beacon

God’s direct action shows His Graciousness to us, so that our eyes of faith are fixed on Him...……
“For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Looking to physical signs to give “sacramental grace” and calling that “the grace of the Holy Spirit” is literally a blasphemy against the all Holy God. It not only denigrates the Person and work of the Holy Spirit, but it presupposes that His power can be controlled and confined within in the Church of Rome’s seven sacraments.

Now Mr. Zeland, you are free to believe whatever you choose to believe. However, you cannot do that and claim the Bible says that it is acceptable when in fact it is the RCC and not the Scriptures.

Dear Major,

Tell me what the following scriptures mean and refer to. Be as specific as possible.

1 John 1:9
Acts 19:17-19
Matthew 9:5-8:
John 20:19-23
2 Corinthians 5:18-20

Thanks,

zeland

 

[Major1]

Dear Major,

Tell me what the following scriptures mean and refer to. Be as specific as possible.

1 John 1:9
Acts 19:17-19
Matthew 9:5-8:
John 20:19-23
2 Corinthians 5:18-20

Thanks,

zeland

It would be my honor to correctly explain those verses for you. Instead of doing one long response for you, I am instead going to do them one verse at a time.

1 John 1:9.....….
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Now if you will read carefully that verse you will not see the words.....
"Priest, or sacraments, or penance".

If and when a believer confesses his/her sin to GOD, God will forgive and pardon.
It doesn't mean that you must go to a Roman Catholic priest on Sunday mass and give him a list of the week's specific sins, so that he can grant you remittance for them on God's behalf. That is because Jesus paid the price and God has pardoned them.

It also doesn't mean the typical protest-ant reform-ed alternative to the Roman Catholic Church, where you must go to a priest-substitute-person (like a Christian brother) and confess some specific sins to him, so that God will remit them. That is because Jesus paid the price and God has pardoned them.

It doesn't even mean that every time you "fail" you must perform some ritual verbal confession to man or God, on a case by case basis, not missing any "fault," lest you be condemned. That is because Jesus paid the price and God has pardoned them.

It also does NOT SAY that we have to do ANYTHING in order to be forgiven of our sins.
The point is just that we must say the "same thing" that God does about sins: We did commit them, they are unacceptable, and Jesus paid the price to pardon them.

 

[Major1]

Dear Major,

Tell me what the following scriptures mean and refer to. Be as specific as possible.

1 John 1:9
Acts 19:17-19
Matthew 9:5-8:
John 20:19-23
2 Corinthians 5:18-20

Thanks,

zeland

Following up on your request for the correct exegesis of Scriptures, I know address Acts 19:17-19 as per your request.

Acts 19:17-19…………...
"When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the LORD Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas."

Again, on the actual reading of those verses, once again we do not see that the people confessed to a priest or an apostle. It is just the opposite my dear friend...……
Notice verse 19 again...……….
"now came and openly confessed what they had done. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly".

FAITH ALONE saves us and justifies us in the sight of God my dear friend.

"WORKS" only justify us in the sight of men!!!!!!!!

In the Book of James chapter 2:20-26 he says...……..
'But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

It is clearly stated that while works have nothing to do with redemption, "WORKS ONLY PROVE THAT WE ARE REDEMED IN THE SIGHT OF MEN."

 

[Major1]

Dear Major,

Tell me what the following scriptures mean and refer to. Be as specific as possible.

1 John 1:9
Acts 19:17-19
Matthew 9:5-8:
John 20:19-23
2 Corinthians 5:18-20

Thanks,

zeland

Continuing with the exegesis Matthew 9:5-8 that you requested...……….

Matthew 9:5-8...………
"For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men."

Again, there is NO mention of a Priest being confessed to or any works needed to be forgiven.

I do not know what the concern here is for you. Jesus not only appealed to people with His words, but He pointed out His power to perform a miracle so as to establish the truth of His Word.

Jesus as God in the flesh had the absolute power to forgive sins. He was the God-Man and could do what ever He wanted to do.

The Jews He was speaking to thought of the forgiveness of sins as being performed ONLY BY Almighty God in heaven above. But Jesus showed them that the Son Of God had the authority to do the same right here on the earth to forgive sins.

John 5:26-27..………
"For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself, and hath given Him AUTHORITY to execute judgment also, BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF MAN".

 

[Major1]

Ooops.

 

[Major1]

Double post.

 

[Major1]

Continueing with your request, I now come to John 20:19-23...……
"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the LORD. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

The context of John 20:23 is that Jesus was speaking to the disciples (v. 19). He breathed on them to receive the Holy Spirit (v. 22). There is nothing in here about priests having the authority to forgive sins. There is nothing here, or anywhere else in the New Testament about apostolic succession that says priests have the authority to forgive sins and that it is passed down. The Bible does mention appointing elders (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5), and that the disciples of Jesus had special authority (Matt. 16:18).

It speaks of the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:19) as well as ordaining men to the ministry (1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6; Titus 1:5). At best, the laying on of hands deals with ordination--not apostolic authority being passed down. After all, they were ordaining elders and not apostles; and it was the apostles who were given the authority by Christ to do miracles and write scripture. Nothing is said here about apostolic authority being passed down.

 

[Major1]

Ooops…….again.

 

[Major1]

Dear Major,

Tell me what the following scriptures mean and refer to. Be as specific as possible.

1 John 1:9
Acts 19:17-19
Matthew 9:5-8:
John 20:19-23
2 Corinthians 5:18-20

Thanks,

zeland

Now for your last Scripture...……..
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

Clearly my friend you wanting to accept the RCC doctrines that came through Oral Traditions of men instead instead of the Word of God.
That is of course you choice and I would not argue that with you.
All I can do is give you the Word of God as it is found in the Bible.

Reconciliation/Salvation/redemption/ forgiveness of sins is God's work of love which was carried out by the Lord Jesus Christ. He came to reveal the nature of God and allow all men the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins.

I know what you have been taught by the RCC. But what you have to understand is that there are NO/NONE/NADA Scriptures which say that a man can forgive sins.

I know that you are taught that the Pope and his priests are the successors of Jesus and His apostles but no where in the Scriptures is there any words which say that there is an "Apostolic Succession".

Now then......Yes, God has us as believers the grand and glorious privilege to make known to all men the nature and character of God and HIS plan of salvation. We are called by God to make known the glorious truth. We are to preach the gospel message to all men urging them to accept God's love and HIs plan of redemption.

However...….that is ALL we can do. We as human beings/believers can not forgive anyones sin. ONLY Jesus Christ can do that as He is the only one who died for their sins of all people.

It should be clear that only God forgives sins; and Christians, as representatives of Christ, pronounce to people what has already been forgiven them by God.

So, 2 Corth. 5:18-20, and neither is any other Bible verse saying that Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins. It is saying that Christian disciples have the authority to pronounce what sins "have been forgiven."

 

[zeland2236]

Dear Major,

With all due respect sir, you are exhibiting a case of extreme narrow mindedness. The words "Priest, sacraments, or penance" do not need to be specifically mentioned, the
But the meaning of these terms is clear. It seems as if you are purposely avoiding the real issue, by your insistence that certain words must be in the scriptures. The word Purgatory in not in the Bible, but the existence of such a state is clearly noted in both the Old, and New Testament. Do you say you believe in the Bible? If you do you believe in a non-existing book, because the word "Bible" in not in the scripture book (here I am purposely avoiding the word "Bible").

Lets go back to John 20:19-23. Our lord gave someone permission to forgive sins in his name: If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. Who was our lord talking to? The moon, the mouse under the table? NO, he was talking to the apostles, who were the first 12 Bishops of the Church. Whatever name you wish to call them, he gave those men authority to forgive sins in his name. Are you deliberately avoiding the issue by your insistence that certain names must be used?

Also, in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Please define the term "ministry of reconciliation".

In regards to your difficulty with some words, see James 5:14–16. “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. Also look in the book of Leviticus, Ch. 4 and 5, and you will see the word "Priest" used over and over again in regards to the forgiveness of sins.

Leviticus 4 King James Version (KJV) starting in verse 3.

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the Lord for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the Lord.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the veil of the sanctuary.

7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the Lord, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And he shall take off from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,

9 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away,

10 As it was taken off from the bullock of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall burn them upon the altar of the burnt offering ...


zeland

PS Why don't you do yourself a favor and read what the early Church taught. If you do you will see that the teachings of Protestantism are nowhere to be found in the early Church.

 

[Major1]

Dear Major,

With all due respect sir, you are exhibiting a case of extreme narrow mindedness. The words "Priest, sacraments, or penance" do not need to be specifically mentioned, the
But the meaning of these terms is clear. It seems as if you are purposely avoiding the real issue, by your insistence that certain words must be in the scriptures. The word Purgatory in not in the Bible, but the existence of such a state is clearly noted in both the Old, and New Testament. Do you say you believe in the Bible? If you do you believe in a non-existing book, because the word "Bible" in not in the scripture book (here I am purposely avoiding the word "Bible").

Lets go back to John 20:19-23. Our lord gave someone permission to forgive sins in his name: If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. Who was our lord talking to? The moon, the mouse under the table? NO, he was talking to the apostles, who were the first 12 Bishops of the Church. Whatever name you wish to call them, he gave those men authority to forgive sins in his name. Are you deliberately avoiding the issue by your insistence that certain names must be used?

Also, in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Please define the term "ministry of reconciliation".

In regards to your difficulty with some words, see James 5:14–16. “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. Also look in the book of Leviticus, Ch. 4 and 5, and you will see the word "Priest" used over and over again in regards to the forgiveness of sins.

Leviticus 4 King James Version (KJV) starting in verse 3.

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the Lord for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the Lord.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the veil of the sanctuary.

7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the Lord, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And he shall take off from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,

9 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away,

10 As it was taken off from the bullock of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall burn them upon the altar of the burnt offering ...


zeland

PS Why don't you do yourself a favor and read what the early Church taught. If you do you will see that the teachings of Protestantism are nowhere to be found in the early Church.

View attachment 230211

I disagree with your comment. I am exhibiting what the Bible says my friend and not what men have told you in the RCC.

Again.....there is NO state of Purgatory either mentioned or stated outright in and Scriptures.

You seem to be deliberately ignoreing the correct exegesis of John 20:23.

The words "have been forgiven" is the single Greek word aphiami. It is the perfect passive. The perfect tense is "I have been." The pluperfect is "I had been." The perfect tense designates an action that occurs in the past and continues into the present, i.e., "I have been eating."

So the correct and proper understanding of the APOSTLES being given the authority to forgive sins is that the disciples were not doing the forgiving but pronouncing the sins that "have been" forgiven by God.

We find that the Psalmist says in Psalms 79:9...…
"Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Your name; and deliver us, and forgive our sins, for Your name’s sake,".

You did not post it and I do not know what Bible translation you are using, but I would think that it is the CATHOLIC translation of the Doury-Rheims for James 5:14, but I will post for you all those that I have a copy of and NONE of them use the word YOU posted of PRIEST.

New International Version
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.

New Living Translation
Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

English Standard Version
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Berean Literal Bible
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call near the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, having anointed him with oil in the name of the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

King James Bible
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Christian Standard Bible
Is anyone among you sick? He should call for the elders of the church, and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Contemporary English Version
If you are sick, ask the church leaders to come and pray for you. Ask them to put olive oil on you in the name of the Lord.

Good News Translation
Are any among you sick? They should send for the church elders, who will pray for them and rub olive oil on them in the name of the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Is anyone among you sick? He should call for the elders of the church, and they should pray over him after anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord.

International Standard Version
Is anyone among you sick? He should call for the elders of the church, and they should pray for him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.

NET Bible
Is anyone among you ill? He should summon the elders of the church, and they should pray for him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.

New Heart English Bible
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And if one is ill, let him call The Elders of the church, and let them pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If you are sick, call for the church leaders. Have them pray for you and anoint you with olive oil in the name of the Lord.

New American Standard 1977
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

Jubilee Bible 2000
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones}; and let them pray for him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

King James 2000 Bible
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

American King James Version
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

American Standard Version
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
Is any sick among you? let him call to [him] the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of [the] Lord;

English Revised Version
Is any among you sick? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Webster's Bible Translation
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Weymouth New Testament
Is any one ill? Let him send for the Elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, after anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

World English Bible
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord,

Young's Literal Translation
is any infirm among you? let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, having anointed him with oil, in the name of the Lord.

Of course all the references you posted showing the word PRIEST were from the Old Test. economy which does not apply to our conversation.

 

[zeland2236]

Dear Mr. Major,

Thank you for your reply, but it is incomplete. You did not answer the following question.

In 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Please define the term "ministry of reconciliation".

Also, you said: "So the correct and proper understanding of the APOSTLES being given the authority to forgive sins is that the disciples were not doing the forgiving but pronouncing the sins that "have been" forgiven by God." -- Question: what are these sins that are being pronounced as "forgiven" by God? Please be specific.

Also, Of course all the references you posted showing the word PRIEST were from the Old Test. economy which does not apply to our conversation. Question -- why does it not apply to our conversation?




Thanks

 

[Major1]

Dear Mr. Major,

Thank you for your reply, but it is incomplete. You did not answer the following question.

In 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Please define the term "ministry of reconciliation".

Also, you said: "So the correct and proper understanding of the APOSTLES being given the authority to forgive sins is that the disciples were not doing the forgiving but pronouncing the sins that "have been" forgiven by God." -- Question: what are these sins that are being pronounced as "forgiven" by God? Please be specific.

Also, Of course all the references you posted showing the word PRIEST were from the Old Test. economy which does not apply to our conversation. Question -- why does it not apply to our conversation?




Thanks

You are very welcome my friend. I am honored to work with you.

However I must disagree with you in that the 2 Corth 5 passage you asked about was not spoken to.

Allow me to repost my response exactly as I posted it...…………

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

Clearly my friend you wanting to accept the RCC doctrines that came through Oral Traditions of men instead instead of the Word of God.
That is of course you choice and I would not argue that with you.
All I can do is give you the Word of God as it is found in the Bible.

Reconciliation/Salvation/redemption/ forgiveness of sins is God's work of love which was carried out by the Lord Jesus Christ. He came to reveal the nature of God and allow all men the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins.

I know what you have been taught by the RCC. But what you have to understand is that there are NO/NONE/NADA Scriptures which say that a man can forgive sins.

I know that you are taught that the Pope and his priests are the successors of Jesus and His apostles but no where in the Scriptures is there any words which say that there is an "Apostolic Succession".

Now then......Yes, God has us as believers the grand and glorious privilege to make known to all men the nature and character of God and HIS plan of salvation. We are called by God to make known the glorious truth. We are to preach the gospel message to all men urging them to accept God's love and HIs plan of redemption.

However...….that is ALL we can do. We as human beings/believers can not forgive anyones sin. ONLY Jesus Christ can do that as He is the only one who died for their sins of all people.

It should be clear that only God forgives sins; and Christians, as representatives of Christ, pronounce to people what has already been forgiven them by God.

So, 2 Corth. 5:18-20, and neither is any other Bible verse saying that Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins. It is saying that Christian disciples have the authority to pronounce what sins "have been forgiven."

I can only say to you that I did in fact make my understanding clearly known to you.

Now you may not like my understanding and you are free to reject them, but they are there none the less.

Nice talking with you and my the Lord bless you!

 

[zeland2236]

You are very welcome my friend. I am honored to work with you.

However I must disagree with you in that the 2 Corth 5 passage you asked about was not spoken to.

Allow me to repost my response exactly as I posted it...…………

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

Clearly my friend you wanting to accept the RCC doctrines that came through Oral Traditions of men instead instead of the Word of God.
That is of course you choice and I would not argue that with you.
All I can do is give you the Word of God as it is found in the Bible.

Reconciliation/Salvation/redemption/ forgiveness of sins is God's work of love which was carried out by the Lord Jesus Christ. He came to reveal the nature of God and allow all men the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins.

I know what you have been taught by the RCC. But what you have to understand is that there are NO/NONE/NADA Scriptures which say that a man can forgive sins.

I know that you are taught that the Pope and his priests are the successors of Jesus and His apostles but no where in the Scriptures is there any words which say that there is an "Apostolic Succession".

Now then......Yes, God has us as believers the grand and glorious privilege to make known to all men the nature and character of God and HIS plan of salvation. We are called by God to make known the glorious truth. We are to preach the gospel message to all men urging them to accept God's love and HIs plan of redemption.

However...….that is ALL we can do. We as human beings/believers can not forgive anyones sin. ONLY Jesus Christ can do that as He is the only one who died for their sins of all people.

It should be clear that only God forgives sins; and Christians, as representatives of Christ, pronounce to people what has already been forgiven them by God.

So, 2 Corth. 5:18-20, and neither is any other Bible verse saying that Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins. It is saying that Christian disciples have the authority to pronounce what sins "have been forgiven."

I can only say to you that I did in fact make my understanding clearly known to you.

Now you may not like my understanding and you are free to reject them, but they are there none the less.

Nice talking with you and my the Lord bless you!

Dear Mr Major,

Thanks for your reply, however you did not answer my one question

you said: "So the correct and proper understanding of the APOSTLES being given the authority to forgive sins is that the disciples were not doing the forgiving but pronouncing the sins that "have been" forgiven by God." -- Question: what are these sins that are being pronounced as "forgiven" by God? Please be specific.

What sins are we talking about here?

Thanks

zeland

 

[Major1]

Dear Mr Major,

Thanks for your reply, however you did not answer my one question

you said: "So the correct and proper understanding of the APOSTLES being given the authority to forgive sins is that the disciples were not doing the forgiving but pronouncing the sins that "have been" forgiven by God." -- Question: what are these sins that are being pronounced as "forgiven" by God? Please be specific.

What sins are we talking about here?

Thanks

zeland

God bless you my friend.

Do you believe that Jesus paid the penalty of ALL SINS for ALL men by His sacrifice?

When the apostles pronounced that "SINS HAVE BEEN " forgiven by God through Jesus Christ, do you think that somehow there was some sins which were not paid for?
That is what your question is implying is it not????

When we are speaking of Christians, we say that Jesus paid for all of their sins; past, present, and future. 1 Peter 2:24 says that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross. Therefore, we have to conclude that Jesus bore all of our sins.

That being the case, then what the apostles confirmed was the forgivness of ALL sin as Christ dies to pay for ALL the sins of humanity. This means that every sin you committed that you are aware of, as well as unaware of, has been paid for by the Lord Jesus.

God, who knows all things (1 John 3:20), knows every sin you have committed and will commit. In order for you and me to be saved, every sin that you will ever be guilty of was paid for by Jesus on the cross.

Allow me to help your understanding of this and hopefully it will clarify it for you.

In the passage we have discussed where Jesus gave the apostles the ability to forgive sins we see that Jesus uses a Greek verb, APHIEMI, for “forgive” two times.
The first time He says “If you forgive” He uses an aorist active subjunctive tense. An aorist tense means an event occurred at some point in time.

It would be like someone saying, “I dropped a coin today.” It is something that just happened. The second time Jesus uses APHIEMI, He changes the verb to a perfect passive indicative tense. This is significant.

A perfect tense means something happened somewhere in past time and the results continue into the present time. It would be like saying, “I dropped a coin a week ago and it is still dropping today.” So we have a situation where a person drops a coin, but the coin has already been dropped and is still dropping.

The perfect tense in combination with the passive means someone did the action on the one forgiven. Who did the forgiving in time past before the apostles did anything? It was God! So in summary, there are two reasons to conclude that the apostles are not doing the forgiving. The sins were already forgiven in the past and they are still forgiven, and they were forgiven by God.

Again......The Apostles did not forgive the sins of man but simply confirmed the fact that God already had.

I hope that helps you to understand this.

A really excellent web site that explains all this in detail is at...…….
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-...at-priests-can-forgive-or-not-forgive-sins-2/