Full believers vs partial believers - Can the "Saved" be saved?

[zeland2236]

Note to moderator. If this post in not in the correct forum, please feel free to move it.

Recently I was having an online discussion with a Protestant about various teachings of Protestantism as compared to the teachings of the Catholic Church. He asked several interesting questions, so I thought I would share with you some points of our conversation. The following are two of his questions.

1 – “What is your attitude towards the body of Christ, that is, the believers in Christ Jesus throughout the world, not just the Catholic body, but His entire body of believers”?

2 – “Because Protestants don't have the "fullness of truth" as the Catholic Church claims to have, and don't believe in "purgatory’, what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

The following was my response to that person.

Dear Sir,

In Mark 16:16, our Lord tells us: “whoever believes, and is baptized, will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned”. There are many other scripture verses that also indicate that if we believe we will be saved (John 3:36; John 5:24; John 8:24; etc.). However, in these statements there is a hidden question – “What exactly are we to believe”? These verses do not say. However, if we go to the end of Matthew’s gospel our Lord is quite specific, and tells us that we are to believe everything - everything He taught the Apostles. “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, even to the end of the world” (Matthew 28:18-20, and Mark 16:15).

Now if the apostles were commanded to teach us everything, then it is reasonable to expect that we are to believe everything they proclaim to us, which means we are to believe everything that Christ taught them. Note, just to emphasize the above, Christ did not say: teach them everything, but then let them pick and choose what they want to accept and believe. No! He commissioned the apostles and his Church to teach everything, and He made it clear that we are to listen to them. Christ said to His apostles, “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you, rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me” (Luke 10:16). Also see Matt. 10:40; John 13:20.

Returning to our Lord’s first statement above: “whoever believes…will be saved. From the foregoing discussion we see that to be saved we must believe everything that Christ taught. Now recall the second half of our lord’s statement above. “…but whoever does not believe will be condemned”.

Now I think it is common knowledge that Protestants do not believe everything the apostles taught.They do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:40-59; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they do not believe in five of the seven sacraments that Christ instituted, including confession (forgiveness) of sins in the manner Christ prescribed (John 20:19-23, and 2 Corinthians 5:18-12). They do not believe in Purgatory, even though Purgatory is well documented in both the Old and New Testament… etc. Many claim to be believers, but are they complete believers, or only partial believers?

In general, Protestantism is based on a numerous violations of scripture. For example, private interpretation of scripture is one of the principle tenets of Protestantism, but the Bible condemns such private interpretation. See: 2 Pet 1:20; 2 Peter 3:15-16. Also see: 2 Thessalonians 2:15; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; Revelation 22:19, and Deuteronomy 4:2, and Proverbs 30:6; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Conclusion – “what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

Objectively speaking, it would seem that these non-believing “believers” will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Notice I said objectively speaking. In the end, only God knows what a person understands. Most Protestants believe what they believe, because this is what they have been told, or taught all their life, and they have never made an in-depth study of scripture to verify the correctness of what they have been taught. They have never compared their beliefs with the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. So they may not be totally responsible for the errors they believe.

The point I am making here is why take a chance on a man-made church, a man-made system of theology that for the last 500 years (from the time of Martin Luther) has produced one error upon another, an accumulation of hundreds of errors that has splintered into thousands of Protestant churches (see attached chart by Time-Life Magazine), teaching ideas that were never taught by the early church, or the apostles (Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

The following link is to an interview with a Dr. David Anders. He was a Presbyterian historian who did his Ph.D. in Reformation history. See:

Please watch this interview, as it will shed much light on the above discussion.

If we are to be saved, we must accept all of Christ’s teachings, not just the ones we like. We cannot be cafeteria Christians – picking and choosing what we will believe or not believe. We cannot be Burger King Christians – having it our way. The last thing we should want to do, is leave this life singing “I Did It My Way”.

 

[Dale]

Note to moderator. If this post in not in the correct forum, please feel free to move it.

Recently I was having an online discussion with a Protestant about various teachings of Protestantism as compared to the teachings of the Catholic Church. He asked several interesting questions, so I thought I would share with you some points of our conversation. The following are two of his questions.

1 – “What is your attitude towards the body of Christ, that is, the believers in Christ Jesus throughout the world, not just the Catholic body, but His entire body of believers”?

2 – “Because Protestants don't have the "fullness of truth" as the Catholic Church claims to have, and don't believe in "purgatory’, what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

The following was my response to that person.

Dear Sir,

In Mark 16:16, our Lord tells us: “whoever believes, and is baptized, will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned”. There are many other scripture verses that also indicate that if we believe we will be saved (John 3:36; John 5:24; John 8:24; etc.). However, in these statements there is a hidden question – “What exactly are we to believe”? These verses do not say. However, if we go to the end of Matthew’s gospel our Lord is quite specific, and tells us that we are to believe everything - everything He taught the Apostles. “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, even to the end of the world” (Matthew 28:18-20, and Mark 16:15).

Now if the apostles were commanded to teach us everything, then it is reasonable to expect that we are to believe everything they proclaim to us, which means we are to believe everything that Christ taught them. Note, just to emphasize the above, Christ did not say: teach them everything, but then let them pick and choose what they want to accept and believe. No! He commissioned the apostles and his Church to teach everything, and He made it clear that we are to listen to them. Christ said to His apostles, “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you, rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me” (Luke 10:16). Also see Matt. 10:40; John 13:20.

Returning to our Lord’s first statement above: “whoever believes…will be saved. From the foregoing discussion we see that to be saved we must believe everything that Christ taught. Now recall the second half of our lord’s statement above. “…but whoever does not believe will be condemned”.

Now I think it is common knowledge that Protestants do not believe everything the apostles taught.They do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:40-59; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they do not believe in five of the seven sacraments that Christ instituted, including confession (forgiveness) of sins in the manner Christ prescribed (John 20:19-23, and 2 Corinthians 5:18-12). They do not believe in Purgatory, even though Purgatory is well documented in both the Old and New Testament… etc. Many claim to be believers, but are they complete believers, or only partial believers?

In general, Protestantism is based on a numerous violations of scripture. For example, private interpretation of scripture is one of the principle tenets of Protestantism, but the Bible condemns such private interpretation. See: 2 Pet 1:20; 2 Peter 3:15-16. Also see: 2 Thessalonians 2:15; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; Revelation 22:19, and Deuteronomy 4:2, and Proverbs 30:6; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Conclusion – “what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

Objectively speaking, it would seem that these non-believing “believers” will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Notice I said objectively speaking. In the end, only God knows what a person understands. Most Protestants believe what they believe, because this is what they have been told, or taught all their life, and they have never made an in-depth study of scripture to verify the correctness of what they have been taught. They have never compared their beliefs with the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. So they may not be totally responsible for the errors they believe.

The point I am making here is why take a chance on a man-made church, a man-made system of theology that for the last 500 years (from the time of Martin Luther) has produced one error upon another, an accumulation of hundreds of errors that has splintered into thousands of Protestant churches (see attached chart by Time-Life Magazine), teaching ideas that were never taught by the early church, or the apostles (Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

The following link is to an interview with a Dr. David Anders. He was a Presbyterian historian who did his Ph.D. in Reformation history. See:

Please watch this interview, as it will shed much light on the above discussion.

If we are to be saved, we must accept all of Christ’s teachings, not just the ones we like. We cannot be cafeteria Christians – picking and choosing what we will believe or not believe. We cannot be Burger King Christians – having it our way. The last thing we should want to do, is leave this life singing “I Did It My Way”.

The simple answer is that Roman Catholic Church has added, and added, and added additional teachings that do not go back to the time of the Apostles.

I'm sure Lutherans will point out that they do believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

On confession, Paul does say to confess your sins one to another. He did not say that you have to confess to an ordained priest, in the confessional, with the priest using complex rules laid down by the Vatican to decide if you can or can't be forgiven.

The barrier in the confessional was invented by St. Robert Bellarmine in 1575. It was unknown before then. This is just an example of how Catholic practice changes with time.

 

[Albion]

Now if the apostles were commanded to teach us everything, then it is reasonable to expect that we are to believe everything they proclaim to us, which means we are to believe everything that Christ taught them....
Now I think it is common knowledge that Protestants do not believe everything the apostles taught.

It may be "common knowledge" among Roman Catholics who aren't aware that there was a Vatican II council, but that is about all.

They do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:40-59; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29)

It is hard to estimate precisely, but it appears that a majority of them do believe in the Real Presence.

For example, private interpretation of scripture is one of the principle tenets of Protestantism, but the Bible condemns such private interpretation.

Not really. ACCESS TO THE BIBLE is a tenet of Protestantism; it is NOT an article of faith that you can believe whatever you want and its all equally good.

There is actually quite a lot that is incorrect in your post. This is only a start.

 

[A_Thinker]

Note to moderator. If this post in not in the correct forum, please feel free to move it.

Recently I was having an online discussion with a Protestant about various teachings of Protestantism as compared to the teachings of the Catholic Church. He asked several interesting questions, so I thought I would share with you some points of our conversation. The following are two of his questions.

1 – “What is your attitude towards the body of Christ, that is, the believers in Christ Jesus throughout the world, not just the Catholic body, but His entire body of believers”?

2 – “Because Protestants don't have the "fullness of truth" as the Catholic Church claims to have, and don't believe in "purgatory’, what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

The following was my response to that person.

Dear Sir,

In Mark 16:16, our Lord tells us: “whoever believes, and is baptized, will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned”. There are many other scripture verses that also indicate that if we believe we will be saved (John 3:36; John 5:24; John 8:24; etc.). However, in these statements there is a hidden question – “What exactly are we to believe”? These verses do not say. However, if we go to the end of Matthew’s gospel our Lord is quite specific, and tells us that we are to believe everything - everything He taught the Apostles. “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, even to the end of the world” (Matthew 28:18-20, and Mark 16:15).

Now if the apostles were commanded to teach us everything, then it is reasonable to expect that we are to believe everything they proclaim to us, which means we are to believe everything that Christ taught them. Note, just to emphasize the above, Christ did not say: teach them everything, but then let them pick and choose what they want to accept and believe. No! He commissioned the apostles and his Church to teach everything, and He made it clear that we are to listen to them. Christ said to His apostles, “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you, rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me” (Luke 10:16). Also see Matt. 10:40; John 13:20.

Returning to our Lord’s first statement above: “whoever believes…will be saved. From the foregoing discussion we see that to be saved we must believe everything that Christ taught. Now recall the second half of our lord’s statement above. “…but whoever does not believe will be condemned”.

Now I think it is common knowledge that Protestants do not believe everything the apostles taught.They do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:40-59; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they do not believe in five of the seven sacraments that Christ instituted, including confession (forgiveness) of sins in the manner Christ prescribed (John 20:19-23, and 2 Corinthians 5:18-12). They do not believe in Purgatory, even though Purgatory is well documented in both the Old and New Testament… etc. Many claim to be believers, but are they complete believers, or only partial believers?

In general, Protestantism is based on a numerous violations of scripture. For example, private interpretation of scripture is one of the principle tenets of Protestantism, but the Bible condemns such private interpretation. See: 2 Pet 1:20; 2 Peter 3:15-16. Also see: 2 Thessalonians 2:15; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; Revelation 22:19, and Deuteronomy 4:2, and Proverbs 30:6; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Conclusion – “what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

Objectively speaking, it would seem that these non-believing “believers” will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Notice I said objectively speaking. In the end, only God knows what a person understands. Most Protestants believe what they believe, because this is what they have been told, or taught all their life, and they have never made an in-depth study of scripture to verify the correctness of what they have been taught. They have never compared their beliefs with the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. So they may not be totally responsible for the errors they believe.

The point I am making here is why take a chance on a man-made church, a man-made system of theology that for the last 500 years (from the time of Martin Luther) has produced one error upon another, an accumulation of hundreds of errors that has splintered into thousands of Protestant churches (see attached chart by Time-Life Magazine), teaching ideas that were never taught by the early church, or the apostles (Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

The following link is to an interview with a Dr. David Anders. He was a Presbyterian historian who did his Ph.D. in Reformation history. See:

Please watch this interview, as it will shed much light on the above discussion.

If we are to be saved, we must accept all of Christ’s teachings, not just the ones we like. We cannot be cafeteria Christians – picking and choosing what we will believe or not believe. We cannot be Burger King Christians – having it our way. The last thing we should want to do, is leave this life singing “I Did It My Way”.

Jesus said that false teachers would indeed come, ... and that we would know them by their fruits ...

Matthew 7:15-20

15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Jesus also said that you could recognize His disciples ... by their love for one another.

John 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you should love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.”

Jesus did not say ... check the lineage of your teachers ... for proof that they are My true disciples.

He said ... look at their fruits. The Catholic church has exhibited many questionable fruits. At points, she has been particularly ravenous. Certainly enough to give me pause ...

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus said that false teachers would indeed come, ... and that we would know them by their fruits ...

Matthew 7:15-20

15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Jesus also said that you could recognize His disciples ... by their love for one another.

John 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you should love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.”

Jesus did not say ... check the lineage of your teachers ... for proof that they are My true disciples.

He said ... look at their fruits. The Catholic church has exhibited many questionable fruits. At points, she has been particularly ravenous. Certainly enough to give me pause ...

Yes, these are good things to consider.

Many "Catholics" will be in heaven, just as many "protestants" will be, because neither grouping even matters at all.

Because salvation is according to the faith of the individual person!

Individuals are individually saved according to their individual faith, and that faith endures if one is doing Christ's commands, doing as He said.

Also it's good to consider though that all believers following Christ accept their brothers and sisters in Christ (as He commanded) -- all fellow believers -- therefore all are 'catholic'!

The word "catholic" meaning universal, and therefore that we accept/welcome our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[zeland2236]

The simple answer is that Roman Catholic Church has added, and added, and added additional teachings that do not go back to the time of the Apostles.


**************************************************************
Dear Dale,

Thank you for your comment. With all due respect, your statements indicate that you have a complete lack of understanding of the scriptural basis for the sacrament of confession. I would ask you to define what you mean by "complex rules laid down by the Vatican".

Below is a summary of the scriptural basis of the sacrament of confession, including the meaning of "confess your sins one to another".



Biblical References to the forgiveness of sins

Question: When man commits a sin against the laws of God, who should determine the manner in which those sins are forgiven: man or God? Well, it is logical to assume that God should decide how we are to be forgiven. After all, God is the one who has been offended by our sins. Some people, however, think that man should determine the method. Some say that they can go direct to God, and while this may work in an emergency if one is near death, and makes a perfect act of contrition, it is not the normal method that Christ established – a method that is very clearly outlined in both the Old and New Testament. See below, the “ministry of reconciliation” that St. Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20.

At this point we should make clear the distinction between serious sins, which kill the soul, and little or less serious sins which do not deprive a person of heaven. Saint Augustine writes: “For as, on the one hand, there are certain venial sins, which do not hinder the righteous man from the attainment of eternal life, and which are unavoidable in this life…while he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins”.

1 John 5:16-17 “If any man sees his brother sin a sin, which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death”.

Luke 12:47-48: "And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more."

Lesser sins can be forgiven by prayer or penance (going direct to God). However, serious sins must be forgiven in the manner prescribed by God. So what is this “manner?

The Old Testament teaches confession of sins to a human Priest. Much of the book of Leviticus deals with duties of the Priest in that regard. Below are a few references concerning confessing and receiving forgiveness through the intercession of the Priest. In all these cases, the Priest is acting as an intercessor between the sinner and God.

Leviticus 4: 20, 26, 31, and 35. “…So the priest shall make atonement for him (the sinner), for his sin, and he shall be forgiven”. Note, that the requirement of going to God’s chosen earthly priest is repeated four times here.

Leviticus 5: 5, 6, 10, 13, 18 1 ”If anyone sins … 5 when they become aware that they are guilty … 6 they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 … and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin…10 The priest shall then make a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven”…. This same idea is repeated five times in Chapter 5.

Leviticus 19: 20-22 20 ”If a man sins … 22 With the ram of the guilt offering, the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and the man’s sin will be forgiven”. Again we see the priest interceding for the sinner, so that his sin may be forgiven.

Numbers 5: 6-7 6 “Say to the Israelites: ‘if any man or woman who wrongs another in any way] and so is unfaithful to the Lord, they must confess the sin they have committed…” Now, if, in the Old Testament, one had to go to a human priest for the forgiveness of their sins, the same is true in the New Testament. The old method of forgiveness prefigured the Sacrament of Confession in the New Testament, as well as the new Priesthood (a more perfect priesthood), which was established, on the apostles at the Last Supper. The old Jewish ritual for the forgiveness of sins has now been elevated to the level of a Sacrament, which makes confession much more effective and beneficial to the sinner.




Pg. 2
New Testament


1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. John is telling the people to confess their sins, and it seems as if the people responded. See the next verse below.

Acts 19:17-19 “And this became known to all the Jews and the Gentiles that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18: And many of them that believed, came confessing and declaring their deeds. 19 And many of them who had followed curious arts, brought together their books, and burnt them before all…”

Matthew 9: 5-8: “For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He said to the sick man, Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thy house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they were filled with fear, and glorified God, who had given such power unto men”.

Jesus here tells us that He has authority on earth to forgive sins, and proves it with miraculous healings, and then Scripture notes this same authority was given to “men” (plural). Here Matthew prefigures Christ’s intention to give such authority to men (the apostles and their successors). John clearly shows that this is Christ’s intention in chapter 20 of his gospel. See the next paragraph below.

John 20: 19 – 23 “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20: And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21: He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22: When he had said this, He breathed on them; and he said to them: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit. 23: whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”.

“He breathed on them” – Only in two places in scripture does God breath on man – to indicate the importance of the action that is to follow.

“As the Father hath sent me, I also send you” - in other words, continue the mission that I have started here on earth. Do everything that I have done, including forgiving sins in My name. This was the Apostle’s commission to begin the ministry of reconciliation. So Christ has delegated, to the Apostles, and their successors, the power (authority) to forgive sins in His name. Christ re-confirms this commission in Matt. 28: 19-20, when He gives the apostles a general commission to teach all nations everything he taught them. Everything includes the forgiving of sins.


John 20: 19 – 23 is where Christ establishes the “ministry of reconciliation” that St. Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 – “But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19: For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing to them their sins; and He hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20: For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God”.

“exhorting by us” - Christ is working through the Apostles to bring His forgiveness to men by establishing a “Ministry of reconciliation”. So Paul clearly indicates that the Apostles are to be involved in a ministry of bringing God’s forgiveness to men. Also consider the following.

Matt 16:19 - first addressed to Peter alone: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." While this passage primarily refers to Peter, and the office of the Pope, being given the authority to make rules and regulations to govern the Church, it secondarily refers to the binding and loosing of sins. The same is true in the verse below where Christ gives to all the Apostles, as a group, a similar authority.

Matt 18:18 Christ addresses all His Apostles: "I tell you truly, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Pg 3

There is one other verse we should look at. James 5:14–16. “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16”Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much”.

Concerning verse 16. Confess, therefore, your sins one to another -There are two possible interpreters given to this text, which refers to sacramental confession. The words one to another, signify that it is not enough to confess to God (going direct to God), but that we must also confess to men, and not to just any man, but to those whom God has appointed, and to whom he hath given the authority of remitting sins in His name. That is, to the apostles and their successors (the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church). The precept here means that we must confess to men whom God hath appointed (just as in the Old Testament), and who, by their ordination and jurisdiction, have received the authority of remitting sins in His name.

Note that the words “one to another” refer to one person confessing to another person. It does not say “one to God” (confessing to God). So again there are two possibilities here. We could confess our sins to just an ordinary person, and there may be some psychological benefits to doing this, even though that person would have no power to forgive our sins. We are all familiar with the old adage “Confession is good for the soul”. From a psychological point of view it is good for us to tell someone else our problems or things we have done. That is why we have psychiatrists who listen to our problems. Anyone who pleads guilty to a crime in court is confessing his or her sins to another person (a judge and/or jury) But if we want our sins forgiven, we must use the method established by Christ, and confess to a priest of the Catholic Church (or the Orthodox Church). The Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) is a great act of mercy on God’s part.

Now if Christ has established such a ministry of reconciliation, then He expects people to use. From the very beginning the Church has taught, and, as we see above, the scriptures support that teaching, that God desires people to confess to him through his ministers (priests and bishops). Consider two other similar situations. When you were baptized, did you go direct to God? Did God pour the water over your head or immerse you in a pool of water? No, a human person, acting in the name of God, baptized you. When you were married, did you go direct to God? Was He at your wedding? Did He perform the ceremony?

Question - Christ already knows our sins, so why does he command us to confess them to the Apostles and their successors? There are several answers to this question. First, we must ask for forgiveness of our sins in humility, and confession is a humbling experience for most people, so confession helps us to learn humility. Recall the account of the two men who went up into the temple to pray (Luke 18: 9-14). It was the humble man who went home justified, but not the other. Secondly, the priest can give us good advice about how to avoid or overcome sins. He can also provide counseling for various areas of moral difficulty that the person may have. And lastly, we receive the grace of the sacrament, which helps us to overcome temptations to sin. It should be noted that, in the sacrament of confession, only imperfect contrition is necessary, not perfect contrition, because the sacrament supplies the rest.

Continued is second reply.

 

[zeland2236]

In the Sacrament of Confession, when the priest (or bishop) absolves a person of his sins, it is Christ that absolves the person. The priest is only acting as an agent of Christ. The priest has no power, of his own, to forgive sins, but does so only in the name of Christ. This idea is clearly illustrated in scripture. When the apostles performed miracles, it was not of their own power that they performed them; they did so only in the name of Christ – acting as an agent for Christ, as in the following example.

“But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk”. (Acts 3:6). When Moses’ parted the Red Sea, did he do so by his own power? No! It was God who performed the miracle. Moses was only the human agent.

When a person insists that they can go direct to God, what are they really saying to Him? They are telling God that they want Him to forgive their sins on their terms? Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which our sins are to be forgiven? Also, when we go “direct to God”, is our contrition really perfect? How do we know that our sins are really forgiven? Can we say for sure that they have not been “retained”? Does God send us an email, or a text message saying: “You are forgiven”? Feelings can be misleading!


Pg. 4

What is the negative side of “Going direct to God”? Have we ever considered this possibly? By refusing to accept Christ’s method of reconciliation, we offend Him, and therefore make ourselves undeserving of forgiveness? This offense could take the form of the sin of presumption, where the sinner hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them”.

See: What is the sin of presumption? | Catholic Answers.

On the other hand, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, it is very comforting and reassuring to hear the words of absolution when the priest says: “I absolve you of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Go in peace, your sins are forgiven”. To my way of thinking, the Sacrament of confession is a great gift of God’s mercy.

In the last verses of Matthew’s Gospel (Matt 28: 18-20), we read: “18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, to the very end of the world.”

Here, Christ reaffirms the absolute authority, which He originally gave to Peter and the apostles in Matt 16:19, and Matt 18:18, an authority to do everything He has commanded them, everything He did when He was on earth - including forgiving sins in His name. Forgiveness of sins is one of the most important functions of the apostles and the Church. It seems a bit strange that some people would say that the apostles have no authority to continue this very important part of Christ’s mission.

In conclusion, let me restate what was said above in regards to serious (mortal) sins. As is stated on page 474 of the Ignatius Study Bible (in reference to CCC 1856-64), “… ordinarily, mortal sins cannot be forgiven apart from the absolution and restorative grace of the Sacrament of Reconciliation”. In other words, going direct to God is OK for little sins, but for serious sins we must do it God’s way, and use the Sacrament of Penance.

In the final analysis, only God can judge what is in a person’s heart, and how they understand things, but wouldn’t it be a safer bet to follow the rules and go “by the book”, so to speak, instead of trying to sneak into heaven on a technicality?

 

[A_Thinker]

In the Sacrament of Confession, when the priest (or bishop) absolves a person of his sins, it is Christ that absolves the person. The priest is only acting as an agent of Christ. The priest has no power, of his own, to forgive sins, but does so only in the name of Christ. This idea is clearly illustrated in scripture. When the apostles performed miracles, it was not of their own power that they performed them; they did so only in the name of Christ – acting as an agent for Christ, as in the following example.

“But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk”. (Acts 3:6). When Moses’ parted the Red Sea, did he do so by his own power? No! It was God who performed the miracle. Moses was only the human agent.

When a person insists that they can go direct to God, what are they really saying to Him? They are telling God that they want Him to forgive their sins on their terms? Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which our sins are to be forgiven? Also, when we go “direct to God”, is our contrition really perfect? How do we know that our sins are really forgiven? Can we say for sure that they have not been “retained”? Does God send us an email, or a text message saying: “You are forgiven”? Feelings can be misleading!


Pg. 4

What is the negative side of “Going direct to God”? Have we ever considered this possibly? By refusing to accept Christ’s method of reconciliation, we offend Him, and therefore make ourselves undeserving of forgiveness? This offense could take the form of the sin of presumption, where the sinner hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them”.

See: What is the sin of presumption? | Catholic Answers.

On the other hand, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, it is very comforting and reassuring to hear the words of absolution when the priest says: “I absolve you of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Go in peace, your sins are forgiven”. To my way of thinking, the Sacrament of confession is a great gift of God’s mercy.

In the last verses of Matthew’s Gospel (Matt 28: 18-20), we read: “18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, to the very end of the world.”

Here, Christ reaffirms the absolute authority, which He originally gave to Peter and the apostles in Matt 16:19, and Matt 18:18, an authority to do everything He has commanded them, everything He did when He was on earth - including forgiving sins in His name. Forgiveness of sins is one of the most important functions of the apostles and the Church. It seems a bit strange that some people would say that the apostles have no authority to continue this very important part of Christ’s mission.

In conclusion, let me restate what was said above in regards to serious (mortal) sins. As is stated on page 474 of the Ignatius Study Bible (in reference to CCC 1856-64), “… ordinarily, mortal sins cannot be forgiven apart from the absolution and restorative grace of the Sacrament of Reconciliation”. In other words, going direct to God is OK for little sins, but for serious sins we must do it God’s way, and use the Sacrament of Penance.

In the final analysis, only God can judge what is in a person’s heart, and how they understand things, but wouldn’t it be a safer bet to follow the rules and go “by the book”, so to speak, instead of trying to sneak into heaven on a technicality?

Hebrews 4

14 Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace boldly, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[Halbhh]

Hebrews 4

14 Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace boldly, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

That's a helpful passage, and also we know that we are specifically instructed by Christ Himself to pray directly to God. (and it's very good to know that Christ also instructed us in several further crucial instructions about prayer (more than 3) which many in churches have not learned all, but which anyone who would listen to Him in the gospels can learn).

Further, we learn we can as individuals directly confess to God.

Christ Himself gave this example to us!

Not some men later in time trying to add restrictions and complications and extra rules as did Pharisees. But, our Teacher, Himself, instructs us, all of us (all, without exceptions) --

Verses 9-14 (which teach us more than one thing we need) --
Luke 18 NIV

 

[Halbhh]

Note to moderator. If this post in not in the correct forum, please feel free to move it.

Recently I was having an online discussion with a Protestant about various teachings of Protestantism as compared to the teachings of the Catholic Church. He asked several interesting questions, so I thought I would share with you some points of our conversation. The following are two of his questions.

1 – “What is your attitude towards the body of Christ, that is, the believers in Christ Jesus throughout the world, not just the Catholic body, but His entire body of believers”?

2 – “Because Protestants don't have the "fullness of truth" as the Catholic Church claims to have, and don't believe in "purgatory’, what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

The following was my response to that person.

Dear Sir,

In Mark 16:16, our Lord tells us: “whoever believes, and is baptized, will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned”. There are many other scripture verses that also indicate that if we believe we will be saved (John 3:36; John 5:24; John 8:24; etc.). However, in these statements there is a hidden question – “What exactly are we to believe”? These verses do not say. However, if we go to the end of Matthew’s gospel our Lord is quite specific, and tells us that we are to believe everything - everything He taught the Apostles. “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, even to the end of the world” (Matthew 28:18-20, and Mark 16:15).

Now if the apostles were commanded to teach us everything, then it is reasonable to expect that we are to believe everything they proclaim to us, which means we are to believe everything that Christ taught them. Note, just to emphasize the above, Christ did not say: teach them everything, but then let them pick and choose what they want to accept and believe. No! He commissioned the apostles and his Church to teach everything, and He made it clear that we are to listen to them. Christ said to His apostles, “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you, rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me” (Luke 10:16). Also see Matt. 10:40; John 13:20.

Returning to our Lord’s first statement above: “whoever believes…will be saved. From the foregoing discussion we see that to be saved we must believe everything that Christ taught. Now recall the second half of our lord’s statement above. “…but whoever does not believe will be condemned”.

Now I think it is common knowledge that Protestants do not believe everything the apostles taught.They do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:40-59; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they do not believe in five of the seven sacraments that Christ instituted, including confession (forgiveness) of sins in the manner Christ prescribed (John 20:19-23, and 2 Corinthians 5:18-12). They do not believe in Purgatory, even though Purgatory is well documented in both the Old and New Testament… etc. Many claim to be believers, but are they complete believers, or only partial believers?

In general, Protestantism is based on a numerous violations of scripture. For example, private interpretation of scripture is one of the principle tenets of Protestantism, but the Bible condemns such private interpretation. See: 2 Pet 1:20; 2 Peter 3:15-16. Also see: 2 Thessalonians 2:15; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; Revelation 22:19, and Deuteronomy 4:2, and Proverbs 30:6; Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Conclusion – “what is their fate or future? Will they not be in heaven with the Lord”?

Objectively speaking, it would seem that these non-believing “believers” will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Notice I said objectively speaking. In the end, only God knows what a person understands. Most Protestants believe what they believe, because this is what they have been told, or taught all their life, and they have never made an in-depth study of scripture to verify the correctness of what they have been taught. They have never compared their beliefs with the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. So they may not be totally responsible for the errors they believe.

The point I am making here is why take a chance on a man-made church, a man-made system of theology that for the last 500 years (from the time of Martin Luther) has produced one error upon another, an accumulation of hundreds of errors that has splintered into thousands of Protestant churches (see attached chart by Time-Life Magazine), teaching ideas that were never taught by the early church, or the apostles (Galatians 1:8-9; 2 John 1:9-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

The following link is to an interview with a Dr. David Anders. He was a Presbyterian historian who did his Ph.D. in Reformation history. See:

Please watch this interview, as it will shed much light on the above discussion.

If we are to be saved, we must accept all of Christ’s teachings, not just the ones we like. We cannot be cafeteria Christians – picking and choosing what we will believe or not believe. We cannot be Burger King Christians – having it our way. The last thing we should want to do, is leave this life singing “I Did It My Way”.

The instruction to you and me from Christ Himself we are to humbly learn from --

Luke 18 NIV
Verses 9-14

 

[A_Thinker]

That's a helpful passage, and also we know that we are specifically instructed by Christ Himself to pray directly to God. (and it's very good to know that Christ also instructed us in several further crucial instructions about prayer (more than 3) which many in churches have not learned all, but which anyone who would listen to Him in the gospels can learn). Further, the New Testament has several instances of individuals directly confessing to God.

Christ Himself gave this example to us!

Not some men later in time trying to add restrictions and complications and extra rules as did Pharisees. But, our Teacher, Himself, instructs us, all of us (all, without exceptions) --

Verses 9-14 (which teach us more than one thing we need) --
Luke 18 NIV

Excellent ...

 

[Major1]

Yes, these are good things to consider.

Many "Catholics" will be in heaven, just as many "protestants" will be, because neither grouping even matters at all.

Because salvation is according to the faith of the individual person!

Individuals are individually saved according to their individual faith, and that faith endures if one is doing Christ's commands, doing as He said.

Also it's good to consider though that all believers following Christ accept their brothers and sisters in Christ (as He commanded) -- all fellow believers -- therefore all are 'catholic'!

The word "catholic" meaning universal, and therefore that we accept/welcome our brothers and sisters in Christ.

You said...……….
"Individuals are individually saved according to their individual faith, and that faith endures if one is doing Christ's commands, doing as He said."

The Bible says something different...…….in Ephesians 2:8-9...……
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast."

Keeping the commands of Christ would be an act of "works".

 

[Major1]

In the Sacrament of Confession, when the priest (or bishop) absolves a person of his sins, it is Christ that absolves the person. The priest is only acting as an agent of Christ. The priest has no power, of his own, to forgive sins, but does so only in the name of Christ. This idea is clearly illustrated in scripture. When the apostles performed miracles, it was not of their own power that they performed them; they did so only in the name of Christ – acting as an agent for Christ, as in the following example.

“But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk”. (Acts 3:6). When Moses’ parted the Red Sea, did he do so by his own power? No! It was God who performed the miracle. Moses was only the human agent.

When a person insists that they can go direct to God, what are they really saying to Him? They are telling God that they want Him to forgive their sins on their terms? Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which our sins are to be forgiven? Also, when we go “direct to God”, is our contrition really perfect? How do we know that our sins are really forgiven? Can we say for sure that they have not been “retained”? Does God send us an email, or a text message saying: “You are forgiven”? Feelings can be misleading!


Pg. 4

What is the negative side of “Going direct to God”? Have we ever considered this possibly? By refusing to accept Christ’s method of reconciliation, we offend Him, and therefore make ourselves undeserving of forgiveness? This offense could take the form of the sin of presumption, where the sinner hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them”.

See: What is the sin of presumption? | Catholic Answers.

On the other hand, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, it is very comforting and reassuring to hear the words of absolution when the priest says: “I absolve you of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Go in peace, your sins are forgiven”. To my way of thinking, the Sacrament of confession is a great gift of God’s mercy.

In the last verses of Matthew’s Gospel (Matt 28: 18-20), we read: “18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, to the very end of the world.”

Here, Christ reaffirms the absolute authority, which He originally gave to Peter and the apostles in Matt 16:19, and Matt 18:18, an authority to do everything He has commanded them, everything He did when He was on earth - including forgiving sins in His name. Forgiveness of sins is one of the most important functions of the apostles and the Church. It seems a bit strange that some people would say that the apostles have no authority to continue this very important part of Christ’s mission.

In conclusion, let me restate what was said above in regards to serious (mortal) sins. As is stated on page 474 of the Ignatius Study Bible (in reference to CCC 1856-64), “… ordinarily, mortal sins cannot be forgiven apart from the absolution and restorative grace of the Sacrament of Reconciliation”. In other words, going direct to God is OK for little sins, but for serious sins we must do it God’s way, and use the Sacrament of Penance.

In the final analysis, only God can judge what is in a person’s heart, and how they understand things, but wouldn’t it be a safer bet to follow the rules and go “by the book”, so to speak, instead of trying to sneak into heaven on a technicality?

this so-called sacrament of reconciliation through "Penance" is a works-based means of gaining forgiveness of sins from God. This is in contradiction to scripture.

A right relationship with God is achieved through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not by our works, or combination of our works and God's grace, because our works are nothing more than filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Rom. 3:24 says...………..
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 4:3 says...………….
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Rom. 4:5...…………………
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness".

Rom. 5:1...………………...
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,".

Rom. 5:9...………………...
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 11:6...………………...
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.".

Eph. 2:8...……………………….
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God;"

I think that it is obviouse that the Bible teaches us that we are made right with God by FAITH AND NOT PENANCE!
The Bible rejects works of any kind as a means of being made right with God.

You'd think that this would be clear to the Roman Catholic Church. But, it isn't. The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says...…………………..

"The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."

What is amazing in this quote is that it is not Christ's sacrifice on the cross that is the focus of atonement for our sins but the works of the individual via penance. This is in blatant contradiction to scripture which says that we are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ--not by our works.
Penance | CARM.org

 

[Major1]

In the Sacrament of Confession, when the priest (or bishop) absolves a person of his sins, it is Christ that absolves the person. The priest is only acting as an agent of Christ. The priest has no power, of his own, to forgive sins, but does so only in the name of Christ. This idea is clearly illustrated in scripture. When the apostles performed miracles, it was not of their own power that they performed them; they did so only in the name of Christ – acting as an agent for Christ, as in the following example.

“But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk”. (Acts 3:6). When Moses’ parted the Red Sea, did he do so by his own power? No! It was God who performed the miracle. Moses was only the human agent.

When a person insists that they can go direct to God, what are they really saying to Him? They are telling God that they want Him to forgive their sins on their terms? Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which our sins are to be forgiven? Also, when we go “direct to God”, is our contrition really perfect? How do we know that our sins are really forgiven? Can we say for sure that they have not been “retained”? Does God send us an email, or a text message saying: “You are forgiven”? Feelings can be misleading!


Pg. 4

What is the negative side of “Going direct to God”? Have we ever considered this possibly? By refusing to accept Christ’s method of reconciliation, we offend Him, and therefore make ourselves undeserving of forgiveness? This offense could take the form of the sin of presumption, where the sinner hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them”.

See: What is the sin of presumption? | Catholic Answers.

On the other hand, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, it is very comforting and reassuring to hear the words of absolution when the priest says: “I absolve you of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Go in peace, your sins are forgiven”. To my way of thinking, the Sacrament of confession is a great gift of God’s mercy.

In the last verses of Matthew’s Gospel (Matt 28: 18-20), we read: “18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, to the very end of the world.”

Here, Christ reaffirms the absolute authority, which He originally gave to Peter and the apostles in Matt 16:19, and Matt 18:18, an authority to do everything He has commanded them, everything He did when He was on earth - including forgiving sins in His name. Forgiveness of sins is one of the most important functions of the apostles and the Church. It seems a bit strange that some people would say that the apostles have no authority to continue this very important part of Christ’s mission.

In conclusion, let me restate what was said above in regards to serious (mortal) sins. As is stated on page 474 of the Ignatius Study Bible (in reference to CCC 1856-64), “… ordinarily, mortal sins cannot be forgiven apart from the absolution and restorative grace of the Sacrament of Reconciliation”. In other words, going direct to God is OK for little sins, but for serious sins we must do it God’s way, and use the Sacrament of Penance.

In the final analysis, only God can judge what is in a person’s heart, and how they understand things, but wouldn’t it be a safer bet to follow the rules and go “by the book”, so to speak, instead of trying to sneak into heaven on a technicality?

Where in the Bible is the Catholic doctrine of Penance found?

 

[Halbhh]

You said...……….
"Individuals are individually saved according to their individual faith, and that faith endures if one is doing Christ's commands, doing as He said."

The Bible says something different...…….in Ephesians 2:8-9...……
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast."

Keeping the commands of Christ would be an act of "works".

You, me, all, will also want the very next verse.

After you read that very next verse, the continuation, then you may be like me wondering just how the words are to be put into practice, and the best answer is John chapter 15, verses 1-17.

Once you have that Ephesians 2 v 10 and also the John 15, then what Christ told us in Matthew 7, verses 21-27 will be confirming. Or one could start at the Matthew 7:21-27 and then go to Ephesians 2:10 and then John 15. The main thing is just to be humble and listen, because He said John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

 

[zeland2236]

this so-called sacrament of reconciliation through "Penance" is a works-based means of gaining forgiveness of sins from God. This is in contradiction to scripture.

A right relationship with God is achieved through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not by our works, or combination of our works and God's grace, because our works are nothing more than filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Rom. 3:24 says...………..
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 4:3 says...………….
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Rom. 4:5...…………………
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness".

Rom. 5:1...………………...
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,".

Rom. 5:9...………………...
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 11:6...………………...
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.".

Eph. 2:8...……………………….
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God;"

I think that it is obviouse that the Bible teaches us that we are made right with God by FAITH AND NOT PENANCE!
The Bible rejects works of any kind as a means of being made right with God.

You'd think that this would be clear to the Roman Catholic Church. But, it isn't. The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says...…………………..

"The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."

What is amazing in this quote is that it is not Christ's sacrifice on the cross that is the focus of atonement for our sins but the works of the individual via penance. This is in blatant contradiction to scripture which says that we are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ--not by our works.
Penance | CARM.org

All of what you said (your conclusions) is just your private interpretation of scripture, which scripture condemns 2 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:16-18. as for works, by works is a man justified, and not by faith alone - James 2:24 (14-26)

 

[Halbhh]

All of what you said (your conclusions) is just your private interpretation of scripture, which scripture condemns 2 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:16-18. as for works, by works is a man justified, and not by faith alone - James 2:24 (14-26)

Look closer at that 2 Peter verse --

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. "

See? With context you can read and understand the plain, clear meaning.

 

[zeland2236]

Where in the Bible is the Catholic doctrine of Penance found?

Above, I have listed all the scriptural references to the sacrament of penance, but here again are the main ones.

John 20: 19 – 23 “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20: And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21: He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22: When he had said this, He breathed on them; and he said to them: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit. 23: whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”.

“He breathed on them” – Only in two places in scripture does God breath on man – to indicate the importance of the action that is to follow.

“As the Father hath sent me, I also send you” - in other words, continue the mission that I have started here on earth. Do everything that I have done, including forgiving sins in My name. This was the Apostle’s commission to begin the ministry of reconciliation. So Christ has delegated, to the Apostles, and their successors, the power (authority) to forgive sins in His name. Christ re-confirms this commission in Matt. 28: 19-20, when He gives the apostles a general commission to teach all nations everything he taught them. Everything includes the forgiving of sins.


John 20: 19 – 23 is where Christ establishes the “ministry of reconciliation” that St. Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 – “But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19: For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing to them their sins; and He hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20: For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God”.

“exhorting by us” - Christ is working through the Apostles to bring His forgiveness to men by establishing a “Ministry of reconciliation”. So Paul clearly indicates that the Apostles are to be involved in a ministry of bringing God’s forgiveness to men. Also consider the following.

Also see:
Matthew 9: 5-8: “For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He said to the sick man, Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thy house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they were filled with fear, and glorified God, who had given such power unto men”.

Jesus here tells us that He has authority on earth to forgive sins, and proves it with miraculous healings, and then Scripture notes this same authority was given to “men” (plural). Here Matthew prefigures Christ’s intention to give such authority to men (the apostles and their successors). John clearly shows that this is Christ’s intention in chapter 20 of his gospel.

 

[zeland2236]

Look closer at that 2 Peter verse --

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. "

See? With context you can read and understand the plain, clear meaning.

What is the "clear meaning" you refer to? Peter says no private interpretation. What about 2 Peter 3:16-18 - is it meaningless?

 

[Halbhh]

What is the "clear meaning" you refer to? Peter says no private interpretation. What about 2 Peter 3:16-18 - is it meaningless?

It says "We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. "

So, it says nothing here in this verse(s) about private interpretations all of course cannot help but do as soon as they hear or read, but instead that the scripture is from God, not men.

The origin of scripture is not of private interpretations of events by the men called prophets...but instead scripture is from God Himself, through agency of the Spirit.