Full, All out, NO HOLDS BARRED... Eternal Security Discussion!

[Trish 1947]

I've said often enough that I think scripture has many examples which contradict the idea of eternal security.

However, in a logical sense, this issue hangs on the question of predestination. More specifically, do you believe that God has predestined people to go to hell? or not? Does God create people for no other purpose than to condemn them?

The reason I say this is because eternal security always rests on the argument that God alone saves, and we play no part in our own salvation. Therefore nothing we can do can lose our salvation, because we did nothing to gain it in the first place.

The logical and necessary conclusion of this argument, however, is that those who are not saved are not saved because God did not save them. If your salvation is completely a matter of God's will in which you played no part, then their damnation is also necessarily completely a matter of God's will.

In other words, if you reduce salvation to depending ONLY on God, then damnation, ultimately, also depends only on God.

If human will plays no part in determining who is saved, then human will also plays no part in determining who is condemned.

Some people believe that, I don't. However, a lot of people try to have it both ways and that simply doesn't work, either biblically, or logically.

As far as predestination, that God saves some and others He "chooses" not to save. How about God already knowing in advance those that would be repelled by the very thought of predestination, and loss of choice and control, and those that will be, and are, very thankful for predestinations existance? Just a thought...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I've said often enough that I think scripture has many examples which contradict the idea of eternal security.

However, in a logical sense, this issue hangs on the question of predestination. More specifically, do you believe that God has predestined people to go to hell? or not? Does God create people for no other purpose than to condemn them?

The reason I say this is because eternal security always rests on the argument that God alone saves, and we play no part in our own salvation. Therefore nothing we can do can lose our salvation, because we did nothing to gain it in the first place.

The logical and necessary conclusion of this argument, however, is that those who are not saved are not saved because God did not save them. If your salvation is completely a matter of God's will in which you played no part, then their damnation is also necessarily completely a matter of God's will.

In other words, if you reduce salvation to depending ONLY on God, then damnation, ultimately, also depends only on God.

If human will plays no part in determining who is saved, then human will also plays no part in determining who is condemned.

Some people believe that, I don't. However, a lot of people try to have it both ways and that simply doesn't work, either biblically, or logically.

I don't think people have any say once they have accepted God's offer of eternal life. They are now new creations. But if you reject all the scripture that says rewards have an intricate place in our part of salvation then how can you possibly understand the end results?

Salvation as a calling is a calling for everyone b/c God would have all mankind saved but that doesn't preclude a chose. Maybe His forming us in the womb to damnation just by placing us in the most unfavorable positions possible to recieve salvation might play a part and yet it hasn't stopped many while the most favorable positions has caused great harm.

 

[dmhforJesus]

I'm not understanding your point. I was raised a Baptist, that believes OSAS, and I knew no one that said it was ok to continue to sin. Thats a fallacy.

Its what I have viewed as the "accepted" thing nowadays........alot of the OSAS young people are saying.............oh its okay, you are going to sin everyday, you can't help it you are human.

And I say this is a load of hogwash. Christ died to give us victory over sin in a very literal sense.

NEVER one time did he deliver someone and say "Go and sin some more" but just the opposite he said "Go and sin no MORE!!!"

 

[Trish 1947]

Its what I have viewed as the "accepted" thing nowadays........alot of the OSAS young people are saying.............oh its okay, you are going to sin everyday, you can't help it you are human.

And I say this is a load of hogwash. Christ died to give us victory over sin in a very literal sense.

NEVER one time did he deliver someone and say "Go and sin some more" but just the opposite he said "Go and sin no MORE!!!"

I have never heard this. But if you say you have, then we both know it's not the Gospel.

 

[PETE_]

Its what I have viewed as the "accepted" thing nowadays........alot of the OSAS young people are saying.............oh its okay, you are going to sin everyday, you can't help it you are human.

And I say this is a load of hogwash. Christ died to give us victory over sin in a very literal sense.

NEVER one time did he deliver someone and say "Go and sin some more" but just the opposite he said "Go and sin no MORE!!!"

Interesting topic here. I agree that too many are quick to set a low standard. I had a pastor early in my life who use this example and it has stuck with me.

Ask most people if they can go 5 minutes without sin and you will get an easy "yes"

If that is the case why not 10...or an hour...or even a day.

As we mature and stay connected to the Spirit in us, we should push those time periods longer and longer

To use a sports example: Teams enter the season knowing that they will not win every game, but they approach each game knowing they can win that one. If they entered the game thinking they were sure to lose, they are defeated already.

If you set your expectations low enough, you will always meet them

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Ain't that what they always say when one of such "spiritual" stature falls. Six months prior you couldn't have ever convinced a one of 'em that he would have ever done such a thing.

Same stuff was going on in John's day:
1 John 2
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20: But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Its what I have viewed as the "accepted" thing nowadays........alot of the OSAS young people are saying.............oh its okay, you are going to sin everyday, you can't help it you are human.

And I say this is a load of hogwash. Christ died to give us victory over sin in a very literal sense.

NEVER one time did he deliver someone and say "Go and sin some more" but just the opposite he said "Go and sin no MORE!!!"

Interesting.
I have never heard anyone say it was ok to sin and that it does not matter. It surely does matter. Sin is terrible as displayed by the terrible price He had to pay to save us.
Lord forgive us for taking that sacrifice lightly and sinning.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Years ago, when I was 16, I was saved in a Southern Baptist revival meeting. I genuinely wanted to follow Christ and for six sweet months became an active church member. I was told I would never go to hell now that I was saved, I was eternally secure.

During my time in that church, one of the most active members of long-standing, a married deacon, had an affair with a woman at work and left his wife and kids, the church, his stellar reputation, everything, to be with the woman. Soon, reports filtered back that he was living a profligate life, getting drunk, doing drugs, getting arrested, cursing his church and former friends, et. al.

My family, being AOG, said that the man had obviously backslid and become reprobate concerning the faith and “lost” his salvation. But I remembered what my Baptist pastor had said about being eternally secure, so I went to him with questions. What about this deacon? Obviously, he was no longer a Christian.

“Oh,” said the pastor, dismissing me, “apparently the man was never saved.” So, I wondered how secure the man was. He thought he was saved, I thought he was saved, the pastor and church thought he was saved. But he wasn’t.

So much for security.

~Jim

You can do a wrong thing long enough that it looks right.​

Ain't that what they always say when one of such "spiritual" stature falls. Six months prior you couldn't have ever convinced a one of 'em that he would have ever done such a thing.

Same stuff was going on in John's day:
1 John 2
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20: But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Then you would have to include Paul. Peter and any othr person who sinned. Peter's repentances weren't all recorded and I'm sure there were many he wasn't even aware of.

People view success as applause and gratifications in terms of worldly accomplishments and when they skew up and loose those the tendency is to fall to the bottom until success with humans isn't the barometor. Sometimes God will raise those to the top of the human totempole again and sometimes He leaves them at the bottom for others to wipe their feet on. But that doesn't prove anything according to God's standards as being the judge of people's hearts, which is the barometor of character destination imho.

 

[dmhforJesus]

I have never heard this. But if you say you have, then we both know it's not the Gospel.

I am glad you haven't - that gives me hope that maybe its not as far reaching as I thought. You really don't have to be all smart alecky about it I was simply sharing what I have viewed - which causes me to fear for some of my fellow man that are being led to believe this way.

I am not trying to push my belief on anyone - simply sharing what it is that I believe. I am concerned for some of the things I see going on nowadays thats all.

 

[dmhforJesus]

Interesting.
I have never heard anyone say it was ok to sin and that it does not matter. It surely does matter. Sin is terrible as displayed by the terrible price He had to pay to save us.
Lord forgive us for taking that sacrifice lightly and sinning.

Again I am glad that this is not a far reaching as I feared. Maybe it is just within the group that I am associated with. I CAN say this the 2nd church that I have friends at that believe this way was SPAWNED from the 1st church that I have friends at that believe this way.

 

[dmhforJesus]

Then you would have to include Paul. Peter and any othr person who sinned. Peter's repentances weren't all recorded and I'm sure there were many he wasn't even aware of.

People view success as applause and gratifications in terms of worldly accomplishments and when they skew up and loose those the tendency is to fall to the bottom until success with humans isn't the barometor. Sometimes God will raise those to the top of the human totempole again and sometimes He leaves them at the bottom for others to wipe their feet on. But that doesn't prove anything according to God's standards as being the judge of people's hearts, which is the barometor of character destination imho.

Can you back this up with scripture - I dont believe I have ever heard of God leaving people to be used as human doormats for others to wipe their feet on.

 

[Trish 1947]

I am glad you haven't - that gives me hope that maybe its not as far reaching as I thought. You really don't have to be all smart alecky about it I was simply sharing what I have viewed - which causes me to fear for some of my fellow man that are being led to believe this way.

I am not trying to push my belief on anyone - simply sharing what it is that I believe. I am concerned for some of the things I see going on nowadays thats all.

I don't know what I said to offend you. But if I have, I will be the first to say that I'm sorry, it was not my intent at all. My discussion wasn't about sin, but our spirits made new. Perhaps you misunderstood my posts.

 

[dmhforJesus]

I have never heard this. But if you say you have, then we both know it's not the Gospel.

This, althought VERY TRUE INDEED, my word is no where near the gospel, was in mho an unnecessary comment to make. However, I do respect your freedom of speach and apologize for having let it rub me the wrong way even for a minute.

 

[dmhforJesus]

I am headed home from work - hope to see some of you guys later !!
God Bless.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Blessings... be safe!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Can you back this up with scripture - I dont believe I have ever heard of God leaving people to be used as human doormats for others to wipe their feet on.

"Jesus was bruised for our transgressions"

ok so it's my own analogy but that doesn't mean there aren't beggers sitting on the streetcorners that get spit on everyday that don't have every right to the same things everyone else does.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Again I am glad that this is not a far reaching as I feared. Maybe it is just within the group that I am associated with. I CAN say this the 2nd church that I have friends at that believe this way was SPAWNED from the 1st church that I have friends at that believe this way.

I think the style of preaching is changing dramatically and people are no longer choosing to be "willfully ignorant"

 

[dmhforJesus]

"Jesus was bruised for our transgressions"

ok so it's my own analogy but that doesn't mean there aren't beggers sitting on the streetcorners that get spit on everyday that don't have every right to the same things everyone else does.

Yes I agree that these situations exist. I apologize that I did not see that as being what you meant in your original post.

 

[dmhforJesus]

I think the style of preaching is changing dramatically and people are no longer choosing to be "willfully ignorant"

I hope it is not changing to a style that is accepting of willful continued sinning - which is what I am viewing here with these 2 groups (which btw are not just little churches - one averages about 750 every service and the other about 300 plus they both have bible colleges and Christian Schools k-12)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I hope it is not changing to a style that is accepting of willful continued sinning - which is what I am viewing here with these 2 groups (which btw are not just little churches - one averages about 750 every service and the other about 300 plus they both have bible colleges and Christian Schools k-12)

What I think is happening is that they are no longer willfully ignoring scripture which tends to make them re-evaluate traditional thinking. That's my limited view of where I see the change occuring, but the little I have seen of it is dramatic. Hopefully it will be an honest endevour and not an appeasment to popular vote.