Fulfilled vs. Abolished

[BenAdam]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Heck NO!

 

[Andy S. Wright]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

Over in one

*golf clap*

 

[pinetree]

If the laws were not abolished,there could not ba a new man,as per Ephesians.


Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Definition.:Katargeo 2673(abolishing)
1 to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed
from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one

Strongs…
Result of search for "2673":
2673. katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

 

[ydouxist]

My car is paid off. It still requires preventive maintenance to keep it running.
Sometimes it quits and I have to replace parts.
This is still less expensive than new car payments.

One way or the other you will continue to pay.

 

[BenAdam]

My car is paid off. It still requires preventive maintenance to keep it running.
Sometimes it quits and I have to replace parts.
This is still less expensive than new car payments.

One way or the other you will continue to pay.

Yes, but your obligation to the bank is fulfilled. Now it's time to pay the piper for buying american.

 

[childofmercy]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

Depends on if you take out an equity loan. Seen more than a few do that and end up owing more than the car was worth.

 

[zaksmummy]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have completely misunderstood what this means.

"To fulfil" in the 2nd temple period meant to point towards, or correctly apply Torah. "To abolish" meant to steer away or wrongly interpret and apply Torah.

So when Jesus said he had come to fulfil Torah he meant that his application of Torah was the correct one, hence "I am the way, the truth and the life"

 

[BenAdam]

right because those translators had no idea what fulfilled means

 

[cyberlizard]

i think this is a case of interpreting a verse devoid of its social and religious understanding and meaning when it was first heard.

zaksmummy is correct as to the verses meaning within a second temple period usage. Anything else is imposing a non second temple period usage onto the text... this is not exegesis but eisegesis.


Steve

 

[Torah]

Here are some examples where Rabbis make commentaries using the word FULFIL and it does not mean abolish.
Halachah: When a Jew goes up to read the Law, he is not permitted to commence reading it before he has recited the blessings. First he must recite the blessings and then he reads. And thus Moses, when he had the privilege of receiving the Torah, first recited a blessing, and then he read it. R. Eleazar asked: What was the blessing which Moses recited before reading it? [It was], Blessed art Thou, O Lord, King of the Universe, who hast chosen this law and sanctified it and hast found pleasure in them who fulfil it. He did not say, ' in them that labour at it,' nor, ' in them who meditate in it,' but, ' in them that fulfil it,' that is to say, in them who carry out the words of the Torah.
Deuteronomy Rabbah 11:6


R. Hoshaya said: Anyone who has knowledge but lacks the fear of sin, really has nothing, just as a carpenter who has no tools with him is not a real carpenter; because the bolts which guard learning are the fear of sin, as it says, And the fear of the Lord is its treasure-house (Isa. XXXIII, 6). R. Johanan said: If one knows the Torah but does not fulfil it, it were better for him that he had not been born,
Exodus Rabbah 40:1


TO OBSERVE TO DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS (XXVIII, 1). R. Simeon b. Halafta said: If one learns the words of the Torah and does not fulfil them, his punishment is more severe than that of him who has not learnt at all.
Deuteronomy Rabbah 7:4


I am perplexed how you can say that Yeshua ‘FULFILLED’= (finished) the Torah, When right before he used the word FULFIL,

he said “I am not come to destroy / abolish” the word “destroy means: 1 : to ruin the structure, or condition of <destroyed the files>; also : to ruin as if by tearing to shreds <their reputation was destroyed> 2 a : to put out of existence :
Or “Abolish”. 1 : to end the observance or effect of : ANNUL <abolish a law>
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy,/ abolish but to fulfil. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of

How is it That Yeshua said he did NOT come to {finish, 1 a : to come to an end : TERMINATE b : END 1b to end the observance, abolish a law,to put out of existence.
BUT TO FULFILL (fulfilled).1 archaic : to make full : FILL <her subtle, warm, and golden breath...fulfills him with beatitude -- Alfred Tennyson>
2 a : to put into effect : b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) c : to bring to an end d : to measure up to :

Fulfil in this passage can not mean to bring an end to, because he just said he did not come to bring an end to the Torah. Yeshua come to meet the Requirements to be the Messiah . [as commentaries from the rabbi show]
This in no way Finishes the Law as you try to claim here. And in fact you have twist the words of Yeshua to say what he said he did not come to do.

Well said zaksmummy & cyberlizard

 

[pinetree]

Hate to break it to you guys..

But if they are not abolished,then the emnity would still exist...

Peter knew that...

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, &#8220;You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.I posted the Greek menaing already...

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

 

[jeolmstead]

actually, I didn't pay off the car...Jesus did 100%, he also bought the extended waranty and provided me unlimited gas.

John O.

 

[ContentInHim]

Hate to break it to you guys..

But if they are not abolished,then the emnity would still exist...

Peter knew that...

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how

unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.I posted the Greek menaing already...

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

But that was not in the Mosaic Law - it was acquired through additions of the Pharisees, not God!

 

[pinetree]

But that was not in the Mosaic Law - it was acquired through additions of the Pharisees, not God!

It is all right in my post above..

Peter said it in acts,and it was Levitical law..Moses..

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, &#8220;You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

Those were the Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.Moses..said it..

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life



Also we have this...


Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

 

[NaLuvena]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

My brother... big mistake in your analogy.

If you pay off your debt, your debt is fulfilled. You still have the car....

Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law. The Law required death for sin, Jesus did that. The Law, however is still there.

Colossians 2

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Jesus did not lie when He said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matt 5:17)

He meant what he said.
Doesn't get any simpler.

 

[charityagape]

I really didn't know there were so many people who wanted to place themselves in bondage.

 

[NaLuvena]

I really didn't know there were so many people who wanted to place themselves in bondage.

Even when we want to become Christ's slaves?

 

[cyberlizard]

Hate to break it to you guys..

But if they are not abolished,then the emnity would still exist...

Peter knew that...

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that separated the two,Jew and Gentile.

highlighted the word 'unlawful' for you there Pinetree...

not that this word does not mean something in contradiction to the Torah as you seem to imply...

you're reading your theology through a translation again.... unlawful would be 'anomos'.... 'nomos' = law, with the 'a' to negate its meaning.

but that word is not used here... instead, 'athemitos', which is 'themitos' which means custom with the 'a' to negate its meaning...

so the verse should be rendered 'you yourselves know how against custom it is for a Jew to associate....

Secondly, the Jewish ceremonial laws did not seperate Jew and Gentile as the Torah explicitly says that the same Torah is for both Jew and Gentile that join the national life of Israel.

Steve

p.s. I corrected some of your spelling errors for you (but removed them from the overall quotation).

 

[cyberlizard]

i once fulfilled the legal requirements to drive a car... does this give me the freedom to drive as I choose afterwards?


Steve

p.s. I do not like to really use analogies as I think they let us down on the whole.