Fudging the Ball

[cygnusx1]

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say faith is a gift. It says salvation is a gift. And salvation is by grace through faith. Our faith is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. Romans 5:2. God says "here I am, here I am, and we respond to the revealing grace of God, either by turning and trusting fully, or by holding back or by rejection. But if we believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, we will be saved.

what possible objection can you have to faith being a gift ........ if salvation is by Grace then why baulk at the gift of faith ?

faith is given as the instrument of our salvation not it's cause...... it is caused by God's Grace .

an illustration of faith as a ticket....

''well folks I will let you into this great place for free , you just need a ticket .''

''but where do we get a ticket from?''

''search me , i don't give out any tickets , but as soon as you find one I will let you in .''

''but you said it was free , where do we get a ticket from? ''

''it is free , but sorry no ticket no entrance.''

''but we haven't got a ticket !!! ''

''tell you what , make yourself one and I will let you in!''

-------------------------


scripture is clear we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God .......

so faith itself is a gift of Grace , otherwise we are saved by a faith that is of ourselves and therefore saved not as a gift but as a trade off!

 

[Van]

I posted a thread starter on this topic, yet I am asked what possible objection could I have. How about it is a mistaken view of scripture? I have addressed that "faith" is a gift of God, just not the "gift" as concocted by Calvinism. To repeat, Romans 5:2 says our faith is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. That is why Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith. In the fatalistic view of Calvinism, no one is able to believe and therefore only those preselected before time began as foreseen individuals are enabled to believe by having their core character altered supernatually before they believe. This whole house of cards is built not on what scripture says, but on what scripture does not say. Jesus says your faith has saved you. But rather than accept the plainly stated truth of scripture, Calvinism says Jesus did not mean what He said, what He meant was the faith I gave you because you were unable to believe saved you.

 

[cygnusx1]

some men believe even when you lose your faith , even if you change your mind about God and choose to reject Him ... you are still going to heaven ......... welcome to hyper fatalism folks!


Faith is a Divine gift , those who say it is a work (and an unregenerate work at that!) teach salvation by works .

 

[Van]

Folks, Calvinists slander opponents by claiming they believe in "Easy Believism." Pay no attention to these ad homenims. Our perserverance through adversity provides assurance of salvation, and anyone who does not love Jesus more than anything was never saved. God keeps His promises, if you deny Christ, God will be faithful and deny you just as He promised. However, anyone who has be spiritually baptized into Christ will never deny Christ because his or her faith is protected by God Almighty. No one can snatch you out of His hand.

 

[cygnusx1]

Folks, Calvinists slander opponents by claiming they believe in "Easy Believism." Pay no attention to these ad homenims. Our perserverance through adversity provides assurance of salvation, and anyone who does not love Jesus more than anything was never saved. God keeps His promises, if you deny Christ, God will be faithful and deny you just as He promised. However, anyone who has be spiritually baptized into Christ will never deny Christ because his or her faith is protected by God Almighty. No one can snatch you out of His hand.

anyone for fudge ........... there's loads here

 

[Van]

I stand with all of John Calvin's arguments on this subject. To assert otherwise is to cover the truth in fudge. Perserverance means what it says, and those who do not face Matthew chapter 7.

 

[cygnusx1]

Folks, Calvinists slander opponents by claiming they believe in "Easy Believism." Pay no attention to these ad homenims. Our perserverance through adversity provides assurance of salvation, and anyone who does not love Jesus more than anything was never saved. God keeps His promises, if you deny Christ, God will be faithful and deny you just as He promised. However, anyone who has be spiritually baptized into Christ will never deny Christ because his or her faith is protected by God Almighty. No one can snatch you out of His hand.

and how does this idea fit with free-will ?

supposing a Christian wanted out of following Christ , it maybe that he finds it too difficult , or he has gone through such a crisis that he even hates God (it does happen) , now if judging by your own reasonings and your arguement about love and free-will , how do those arguements fit this case ???
It seems to me you are saying , ''it matters not if a person changes their mind , they are going to heaven even if they don't want to .......... ''
so how do you explain OSAS when there are people who no longer want to go anywhere near God ? Is God going to force them against their wills , or will He let them go ........?

 

[pcwilkins]

Peter you end up asking the same question I just answered from scripture. Matthew 13:1-23 tells us why folks react differently to the gospel. Some folks love darkness. Some folks do not make a heart-felt committment. Some folks refuse to turn loose of the other treasures (weeds) in their heart. Everyone that accepts the gospel accepts it with joy for we were lost and now are found.

It is plain that you cannot answer the question. I am not asking why folks react differently to the Gospel. You have answered that question numerous times, and each time I ask another you go back to answering that one. You have told us why, in your opinion, folks respond differently to the Gospel - no we move on to discuss the reasons you give. Ok? Look carefully at my questions, and think deeper.

What I am asking is....

WHY do some folks love light, when some love darkness? What is it that makes the change? If it was a decision of the free-will, then what is it that makes one person use their free-will in this way when thousands don't? Is it because they have a different character? Because they make a better use of their free-will? Or is it all down to 'circumstances'? From your previous posts you seem to imply that it is just an attribute of their character - but who decides a persons character? Where does it all begin, Van? That is what I'm trying to get down to - stop playing on the surface and dig!!!

WHY do some folks make a heart-felt commitment, when some don't? They are all the same by nature - so why the difference?

WHY do some turn loose of the world, when others refuse? What makes those who turn loose do it? Is it something different in their nature? Something different in their character? Or is it all down to 'circumstances'?

These are the questions which need answering, Van. Does thinking about these things make you nervous?

It is in these questions that the glory of salvation lies, and until you think about these things you are missing out on an awful lot of the glory of God's work.

Peter

 

[Van]

Peter, unless you address my answer I am done. Please quote my answer and then address it. And then answer you own question, what do you think. And if you give me the "I cannot answer my own question" again, you need to think about what that says.

And to say I have not answered it is a complete falsehood.

 

[Van]

Cygnusx1, please address my post instead of running to another subject. And by the way, I have answered you question before. Why not address my answer, rather than just repeating the question.

 

[pcwilkins]

Post deleted

 

[pcwilkins]

Peter, unless you address my answer I am done. Please quote my answer and then address it. And then answer you own question, what do you think. And if you give me the "I cannot answer my own question" again, you need to think about what that says.

I am both able and willing to answer my own questions for you.

WHY do some folks love light, when some love darkness? What is it that makes the change?

It is the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit that makes the change.

WHY do some folks make a heart-felt commitment, when some don't? They are all the same by nature - so why the difference?

Again, they are enabled to make that commitment - to put that faith in Christ - through and by the work of God within them. These are the 'good ground' in the parable of the sower. They are not 'good' because they made themselves good - they are 'good ground' because God, through the work of the Holy Spirit (conviction of sin) prepares them to receive the seed (the Gospel).

WHY do some turn loose of the world, when others refuse?

Because some have their eyes opened to see their own sinfulness; to see their own need; to see the preciousness of Christ; to see that the world is worth nothing compared to Him. That is when a person will 'turn loose of the world'. If God has given you that sight, bless Him for it.

Now perhaps you should think about what your answers would be, if you had any. You can bluster as much as you like and dance around the problem, but the problem is still there. You cannot give a satisfactory reason why one person receives the Gospel when most people don't. You can give secondary reasons - "They love light instead of darkness", "They are willing to turn loose of the world", "They make a heart-felt commitment" - but you aren't willing to dig any deeper.

You see, all these reasons you give show that there is already something different about someone who receives the Gospel before they actually believe - they love light, they are willing to leave the world, they are willing to make the commitment, etc. etc. - but how did this difference come about? That is the issue here.

Why was the good ground 'good'? Was it created 'good'? Did it make itself 'good'? Or did God make it 'good'? There is the crux of the problem.

Peter

 

[Van]

Now perhaps you should think about what your answers would be, if you had any

I did not see where you quoted my answer as I requested.

 

[pcwilkins]

Your 'answer' simply raised more questions - questions that it is becoming increasingly clear you are both unable to answer, and unwilling to think about.

Yes, a person may receive the Gospel because they are willing to turn loose of the world. But what makes a person willing to turn loose of the world?

Is it the way God made them? If so, we are back to unconditional election.

Is it because they are better, more reasonable, less rebellious people? If so, we have the salvation of the 'not so bad' - but Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not those who are 'not so bad'.

Is it because they 'do the right things'? If so, we have salvation by works. "Oh," you say, "believing is not a work". But the Jailer said "What must I DO to be saved?" and the reply was "Believe." Sounds like believing is something that a person DOES then - in other words, a work.

You quote the parable of the sower again and again, but you fail to recognise the real, deeper meaning of it. Yes, the good ground bore fruit. Yes, that represents those who have real faith - living faith, that is accompanied by works. But lets look deeper - what made that ground good? Look at it in natural way! How do me make ground good? We prepare it. We plough it up, we prepare it to receive the seed. That is what makes ground good - preparation. Unless God prepares a person's heart, the seed of the Gospel will not take root and bear fruit.

Bless God if He prepared your heart to receive His word! If He hadn't prepared the heart, the seed wouldn't have born fruit!

Peter

 

[Van]

Unless you post a quote of my answer, as far as I know, you do not even know what my answer is. All these comments about my answer without quoting my answer suggests you view is based on presuppositions, bias, and invention.

I started a whole thread on the subject of mixing work with faith, it is a mistaken view of scripture to deny conditional election, God chooses those who are poor, who do not have worldly treasures in their heart, who are not mighty, or well born. He chooses folks that love Him because He first loved them. He keeps his promises. When we repent and turn to God, when we believe and put our trust and reliance upon Christ, we bring glory to God. Without free agency, the purpose of the Law is nullified, it could not lead us to Christ, and the purpose of creation is nullified, we could not bring glory to God.