Fudging the Ball

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pcwilkins

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Van said:
Folks choose to accept the gospel or reject the gospel based on whether they have heard and learned from the Father...

Implication here is that those who have heard and learned from the Father accept the Gospel. This doesn't support the Arminian case at all, because none of us have any control over whether we have 'heard and learned from the Father'. It is the work of God to make a man hear God's voice and learn from God. Without God's work in the soul, man will not hear God's voice. They stop up their ears. Who would hear and learn from someone who they hated? God has to break down all our 'self'' and grant us that new birth before we will hear His voice.

Van said:
...whether they have been known by lovingkindness...

Again, do we have any control over whether we 'have been known by lovingkindness'? What is this 'lovingkindness'? Surely it is God - He is love. Do we have any control over whether we are known by God? No, God decides who He knows. Once again, this does not support the Arminian view, but rather the Calvinistic view.

Van said:
...or whether they love darkness rather then light.

Once more, can we - us poor, weak, sinful men - control whether we love darkness rather than light? Surely, no. By nature we all love darkness rather than light. It is the work of God to change a man's heart so that that man loves light, loves God, loves truth. I know that my heart loved darkness. I know that now it sometimes feels a little love to Christ. I did not just 'decide' to change.

On close inspection, then, what you are saying here is that 'Folks accept or reject the Gospel based on whether or not God has called them, on whether God knows them, and on whether God has granted them a new heart.'

It could be the work of Calvin himself. An excellent commentary on Romans 8:28-30!

Peter
 
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cygnusx1

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Peter you have hit the nail on the head , fallen man will not listen to someone he hates!

The truth is man paints himself as neutral towards God , but scripture testifies that fallen man is at war with God.

It is always a test of a persons character who they will listen to , God or man.

There are many here who simply do not accept the testimony of God's word , they do not believe what God has said about fallen man.

What feelings of grandeur , what puffed up notions , what deception of the flesh , what lies men hang onto and love.... they cannot bear to be told the truth.
 
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Philip dT

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Van, I think the point where we differ is that I do not see the ability to believe as a spiritual ability, but rather an ability of the human will, which according to Rom 7 is to be distinguished from the human nature / spirit. As explained before, Rom 7's "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find," speaks of the old man (as all the textual markers in Rom 7 indicates). Thus, the old man is spiritually dead, but he does have a will to do good, however, that will is not able to bring true good (only made possible by God) INTO EFFECT. But, that will CAN BELIEVE! God honours faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). God RESPONDS to faith, but there is no inherent SUBSTANCE WITHIN FAITH that automatically triggers the spiritual realm to react! God reacts on the ground of faith if He whishes to - but He will act according to His promises.

The bible do differentiate between spirit (nature), soul (will, mind, emotions), and body:
1Th 5:23 "And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Heb 4:12 "For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

The ability to believe, therefore, is not a spiritual quality, or a quality that can be measured on a polar scale (good. vs. bad), but it supercedes / transcends the polar category. It is non-polar. It is on the level of the will and mind. The will to make good choices or bad choices is both present with the reborn and the unborn. Likewise, the mind is not transformed at rebirth (the spirit is), but it has to be transformed continually (Rom 12:1-2). The will is the God-given quality that He gave to all human beings, that enables God to have an actual inter-personal relationship with man which is not deterministic, fatalistic or marionette-like.
 
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Van

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Again, the idea that it is the work of God to individually enable totally depraved folks who have no ability to respond affirmatively to the gospel, is a mistaken view of scripture. You can assert it till the cows come home, but scripture clearly demonstrates overwise. God created us with the ability to hear and understand and accept the gospel. This is demonstrated by Matthew 13:1-23 where unregenerate folks receive the gospel with joy. The case is made.

God has revealed Himself by what He has made, and through the inspiried words of the scriptures. He has said, "here I am, here I am" and folks have heard and responded, some turning to God, others rejecting God.
 
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pcwilkins

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Van said:
God created us with the ability to hear and understand and accept the gospel. This is demonstrated by Matthew 13:1-23 where unregenerate folks receive the gospel with joy.

Yes, we can hear and understand and accept the gospel in a natural way, but that is not salvation. Hearing with the natural ear may please the natural mind, but it is the spiritual hearing which has a real effect. It is the spiritual hearing that produces faith in the heart.

Matthew 13:1-23 does not support your 'case'. Those 'unregenerate folks' that heard the word with joy did not last; they didn't have the root in themselves. That is the vital point - having the root. There seem so many these days that hear the word with joy but it seems to have no effect. These are the stony ground hearers. They like the sound of the Gospel but they aren't prepared to give up all and follow Christ. They just want the reward. They follow Christ for the crown, but give up when they find they have to bear a cross.

The reason the word did not take root and bear fruit is because they were unregenerate. The ground was not prepared - it was not made good ground.

Now look at the good ground hearers. They heard the word. There is no mention that they heard it with joy, but the point was that they understood it. It really entered into their hearts, it didn't just enter their minds. That is real, saving hearing, and the point is that only the good ground hearers received that hearing.

Were they good ground by nature? No, God had to make them good. He had to take out their stony heart, pull up all the weeds of self-righteousness and bring them to nothing before Him. Only then, when the ground has been prepared by God, will the seed really enter in and bear fruit.

Van said:
The case is made...

but it is flawed.

Van said:
God has revealed Himself by what He has made, and through the inspiried words of the scriptures. He has said, "here I am, here I am" and folks have heard and responded, some turning to God, others rejecting God.

Look deeper, Van! Stop dabbling on the surface; there is an infinite depth of blessed truth if only you would dig deeper.

Why have some turned to God, and others rejected Him? Why the difference? They are all the same by nature - God-hating, darkness-loving sinners. Is it not a miracle for such a person to 'turn to God', to start loving God? It is a miracle - and who can work miracles but God?

Peter
 
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Van

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I accept scripture as written, I do not look below the inspired word of God to find the hidden meanings ascribed by the traditions of men.

Peter, Calvinism makes two contradictory arguments. One we are dead, and unable to respond affirmatively to the gospel, we are corrupted, and emity toward God so we do not want to seek God. This argument is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:1-23. But when I make this point, the Calvinists then shift and say we can respond, just not adequately. But God is the judge of that, not us. We respond and God either accepts us or rejects us. Jesus rejected the rich young ruler because he could not turn loose of his worldly possessions. God chooses the poor who are rich in faith. A conditional election.

Peter you end up asking the same question I just answered from scripture. Matthew 13:1-23 tells us why folks react differently to the gospel. Some folks love darkness. Some folks do not make a heart-felt committment. Some folks refuse to turn loose of the other treasures (weeds) in their heart. Everyone that accepts the gospel accepts it with joy for we were lost and now are found.
 
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cygnusx1

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Van said:
I accept scripture as written, I do not look below the inspired word of God to find the hidden meanings ascribed by the traditions of men.

Peter, Calvinism makes two contradictory arguments. One we are dead, and unable to respond affirmatively to the gospel, we are corrupted, and emity toward God so we do not want to seek God. This argument is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:1-23. But when I make this point, the Calvinists then shift and say we can respond, just not adequately. But God is the judge of that, not us. We respond and God either accepts us or rejects us. Jesus rejected the rich young ruler because he could not turn loose of his worldly possessions. God chooses the poor who are rich in faith. A conditional election.

Peter you end up asking the same question I just answered from scripture. Matthew 13:1-23 tells us why folks react differently to the gospel. Some folks love darkness. Some folks do not make a heart-felt committment. Some folks refuse to turn loose of the other treasures (weeds) in their heart. Everyone that accepts the gospel accepts it with joy for we were lost and now are found.

this is proofr positive that some think salvation is Of man , God is passive waiting upon men , and men have it in their power to please God ........

The introduction of The Law shows us the total lie of this claim!
 
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Van

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Calvinism makes two contradictory arguments. One we are dead, and unable to respond affirmatively to the gospel, we are corrupted, and emity toward God so we do not want to seek God. This argument is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:1-23. But when I make this point, the Calvinists then shift and say we can respond, just not adequately. But God is the judge of that, not us. We respond and God either accepts us or rejects us. Jesus rejected the rich young ruler because he could not turn loose of his worldly possessions. God chooses the poor who are rich in faith. A conditional election.

Peter you end up asking the same question I just answered from scripture. Matthew 13:1-23 tells us why folks react differently to the gospel. Some folks love darkness. Some folks do not make a heart-felt committment. Some folks refuse to turn loose of the other treasures (weeds) in their heart. Everyone that accepts the gospel accepts it with joy for we were lost and now are found.


This illustrates salvation is from God, and that the anthropocentric views of Calvinism are in conflict with God's divine purpose.
 
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cygnusx1

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Van said:
[/i]

This illustrates salvation is from God, and that the anthropocentric views of Calvinism are in conflict with God's divine purpose.


''anthropocentric views of Calvinism''

how so ?

Calvinism is just a "nickname" , and it is far bigger than TULIP .

it places God right at the center and at the head of all things (excluding sin)
 
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cygnusx1

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Van said:
How so??? Let see. What did I say. Gee, Calvinism in conflict with God's purpose. It does not glorify God to be compelled to glorify God. To be God centered, a doctrine must reflect God's purpose and plan, not the traditions of men.

how so ?

explain how calvinism is contrary to God's Purpose.

explain how the doctrines of The Reformation (without which you would most probably be a Roman Catholic) are not reflective of God's plan ?
 
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Van

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I already explained it. Please read my post. Folks, ask yourself, why are the same questions asked after they are answered not once or twice but many times? Does anyone smell smoke?

By the way, being an American, and having read a little history, I am very happy the Saints came to America to get away from the dark ages characteristic of having religion escounced in government. Call it the culmination of the Reformation. Jefferson was wrong about many things, but religious tolerance was not one of them. So we differ from John Calvin's view on that too, ol friend from across the sea.
 
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cygnusx1

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Van said:
I already explained it. Please read my post. Folks, ask yourself, why are the same questions asked after they are answered not once or twice but many times? Does anyone smell smoke?

because your answers are inadiquate , evasive and contradictory ........... yes I smell smoke , try and answer stright next time without all the anti-Calvinist rhetoric , or the ''poor me '' act.

man is a wretched sinner that loves sin , only By Grace are we saved...... God is gracious to grant us all things that pertain to life and Godliness.
 
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Van

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Folks, if my answers were inadequate, why not address my inadequate answers rather than ask the same questions? Its a smokescreen, folks.

Lets consider is man a wretched sinner? Yes. Does that advance the Calvinist assertion of total depravity? Nope. So a smokescreen.

Are we saved by grace? Yep. Does that advance the Calvinist assertion of irresistible grace as opposed to revealing grace? Nope. So a smokescreen. Hiding the mistaken doctrine in generalities. And ad hominens.

For my grace are you saved through faith. Faith comes from hearing and who can hear without a preacher. Our faith is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. What must we do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus. What did Jesus say? You faith has saved you.

Just as a confession is worthless if obtained under duress, there is no glory to God if we are compelled irresistibly to trust in Christ. God's purpose of creation was to form folks who would choose to glory God. What we need is a Reformed Reformed TULIP, without compulsion, love does not demand its own way.
 
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cygnusx1

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If I can just get through the smoke .............................................




"By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" EPHESIANS 2:8






MOST MEN try to lay God under a debt to save them. They work for salvation instead of working from it. They "go about to establish their own righteousness". In this way worldly people seek eternal life: "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" (John 6:28). Although in words they renounce all pretence of any worth in themselves or in their duties, yet they have a secret hope of recommending themselves to God by their decency, sobriety, and religious performances. In this way those who have a little concern for their souls, like the young ruler, seek for eternal life: "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" (Matthew 19:16). His earnest desire was to make himself appear righteous before God. In this way, also, those who are under the deepest concern often wander in search of pardon and peace. Perhaps there may be traces of this feeling in the anxious question of the poor jailor, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved" (Acts 16:30); and in the piercing cry of the prostrate Saul, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" (Acts 9:6). Certain it is that self-righteousness is the worst and longest-lived viper in the human breast. Most men under convictions are very unwilling to throw away all self-confidence. They are not willing to despair of ever being fair in the sight of God in themselves. They shrink back from the idea of being lost and undone, for anything that they can do. They do not like to venture to lie helpless and without a plea at the feet of a sovereign God. How solemn to a sinner in such a state should these words be, "By grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God"!


http://www.sovereign-grace.com/355.htm
 
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cygnusx1

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1. Salvation is by grace. When a man chooses an apple off a tree, he generally chooses the ripest, the one that promises best. It is not so with God in choosing the soul He saves. He does not choose those that have sinned least, those that are most willing to be saved; He often chooses the vilest of men, "to the praise of the glory of his grace". This is proved by the instances given in the Bible of brands plucked out of the burning. Why did God choose Manasseh, who "caused his children to pass through the fire", set "a carved image in the house of God", and filled Jerusalem with the blood of holy men, while many of his deluded people, who had sinned far less, perished? (2 Chronicles 33). Why did God save Zaccheus the hoary-headed swindler, "the chief of the publicans"? (Luke 19: 1-10). Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees, "the publicans, and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you"? Why did Jesus enter into the pearly gates of paradise with a poor thief, who had never done anything but sin up to his last hour? (Luke 23:43, comp. Matthew 27:44). Why did He leave the other thief, who was no worse than his fellow (both were hell-deserving), to sink into perdition within an arm's length of an Almighty Saviour? All these things happened unto them for ensamples, to show us that God saves according to the good pleasure of His will, not for our goodness, but to show His own free adorable grace.



The same thing is proved by the experience of every child of God. Who that has ever "tasted that the Lord is gracious", does not feel a response in their bosom to the declaration of a simple believer, "Had He not chosen me before I was born, He had never seen reason to choose me afterwards There was nothing in me to attract the love of God. "Behold, even to the moon and it shineth not, yea, the stars are not pure in his sight; how much less man that is a worm, and the son of man which is a worm." He loves what is pure, holy, heavenly; but "I am carnal, sold under sin". There was every thing in me to drive God away. "God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11). He was angry with me. His whole nature abhorred me, for I was under Adam's sin; I was shapen in iniquity; every member of my body, every faculty of my soul, had been only the servant of sin. Yet He came over all these mountains to my soul. I said, Art thou come to torment me before the time? I desire not the knowledge of thy ways. But He made me willing in the day of His power. Glory, glory, glory, to the Father who chose me, the Son who died for me, and the Spirit who quickened me. Salvation is of the Lord, and it is all of grace.

2. Salvation is through faith. When David Brainerd was under conviction of sin, the corruption of his heart was dreadfully irritated by this, that faith alone was the condition of salvation. Of this very text he used to say, "It is a hard saying: who can bear it?". Another thing that kept him in misery was this, "I could not find out what faith was, or what it was to believe, and come to Christ. I read the calls of Christ to the weary and heavy laden, but could find no way that He directed them to come in." This is a difficulty which almost every inquiring sinner feels. It is probable that Satan often uses it as a fiery dart to keep poor sinners away from Christ. The only way really to know what faith is, is to experience it. In one part of the word it is described as "knowing" "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). A true realizing knowledge of God, and of Christ as the sent of God, is saving faith. Have I this knowledge, O my soul? I was born like a wild ass's colt. God was not in all my thoughts. I did not like to retain God in my knowledge. But it pleased God to reveal His Son in me. Flesh and blood could not reveal Him unto me, but my Father who is in heaven. He has opened to me the way of salvation, so that I see its wisdom, excellency, and freeness; I cannot but believe, a this I humbly trust is that faith which is the gift of God.

http://www.sovereign-grace.com/355.htm
 
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Van

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Folks, more copy and paste smokescreen without addressing anything I have shown from scripture.
Although in words they renounce all pretence of any worth in themselves or in their duties, yet they have a secret hope of recommending themselves to God by their decency, sobriety, and religious performances
Yet another ad homenim argument without merit.

Scripture says our faith is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. Scripture says our faith saves us. Ascribing pride to those who disagree is an ad homenim argument without merit.
 
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cygnusx1

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more smoke ^ cough cough cough ^




Ephesians 2:8 (Go to this verse :: Verse pop-up)

Where do we get the faith that is required for salvation? Ephesians 2:8 answers: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." We cannot work it up—that would be our effort (Isaiah 64:6).​

Consider when God first started working with us. One year we were clueless, the next year things were making sense. We read the Bible and understood it, but more importantly, we believed it.

Where did that belief come from? It was, as Ephesians 2:8 says, a gift from God. The real miracle is not that we understood, but rather that we now believed those words we understood. And this happened only because God made it possible.

What was the evidence that we believed those words? We began living by them. Our new works and actions were the evidence of our faith: keeping the Sabbath, tithing, eating habits, etc.

Just like Abraham, our actions showed our desire to begin a right relationship with God motivated by His gift of faith. "Don't you remember that our ancestor Abraham was declared right with God because of what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, he was trusting God so much that he was willing to do whatever God told him to do. His faith was made complete by what he did—by his actions" (James 2:21-22, New Living Translation).

To complete our faith, are we willing to believe and do whatever God tells us? Consider those first experiences as we began to believe. We faced family pressure, work pressure, peer pressure, etc., to obey what we now believed. What evidence did we have to back up our actions? All we had was God's words. Armed with only those words, we willingly faced any opposition to act on what God commands. Just like Abraham, it was our faith in those words that encouraged us to obey and begin our journey, not knowing where we were going (Hebrews 11:8).

At our baptism, could we have predicted all the twists and turns our lives have taken since? Just like Israel's journey after baptism in the Red Sea, God has taken us in a zigzag route across this wilderness we call life. What was our evidence of things not seen? Only the words of God. That was the only evidence we had then, and it is the only sure evidence we have now.

As we deal with our trials, do we remember that first love? Do we remember the challenges we were willing to confront with only the words of God as our evidence? It is no different today. Will we believe God or what we can see? God needs to find out just as He did with Abraham—to "know" we will obey, no matter what, until the end (Matthew 10:22).

To test our faith, God's pattern is to bring us to a point—a brick wall or a Red Sea—that seemingly allows no escape. That is where He can find out what is truly in our hearts—hearts of belief or evil unbelief (Hebrews 3:12). Will we believe Him or our eyes?

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/1694
 
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Van

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Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say faith is a gift. It says salvation is a gift. And salvation is by grace through faith. Our faith is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. Romans 5:2. God says "here I am, here I am, and we respond to the revealing grace of God, either by turning and trusting fully, or by holding back or by rejection. But if we believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, we will be saved.
 
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