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never thought of noses as "delicious" lolYes, that one was just delicious. Already copied and pasted that one for the archives!
If "we" are Gentiles then we were never under the schoolmaster Paul was referring. So, how could "we" still be under the old covenant's laws given only to Israel? Think about it, Gentiles were never under the ten commandments, never required to observe the ritual commands like the weekly Sabbath.The question was asked what law did Paul set us free from. He didn't God did, and it His Law we are set free from through Christ. We are no longer in bondage to it because we are not breaking it. We are not sinning through Christ. And if we are sinning then we are still under a tutor, the Schoolmaster, the Law and are only living partly in Christ if at all.
In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatias 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In Roman 7:14, God's law is spiritual, which is because it has always been intended to teach us spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature. For example, if I wanted to teach the spiritual principle of what it means to love God and our neighbors, then I could come up with a list of 613 examples of actions that people can take that are examples that principle, and all of those examples would be intended to teach how to act in accordance with that principle, so if we correctly understand that spiritual then it will lead us to take actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with God's law. If someone thought that they understood the spiritual principle of love, so they no longer need to take actions that express love for their neighbor such as helping the poor, then they would be missing the whole point.“””Who do you think are the Father god God the Father and what is the difference between them? Which one created the world, which one is the God of Israel, and which one is Jesus one with?”””
God the father (Jesus' father) created the first account of creation.
Father god created the second account of creation.
The God of spiritual Israel is God the Father (Christ's Father)
The god of physical Israel is Father God.
Everything in the old testament is a carbon copy of spiritual truth. It appeals to the flesh and Ego instead of Spirit. Commandments are given to the natural mind and blessings are conditional. Our job is to discern the spiritual meaning behind the obvious. The Spiritual parallels everything Father god says and does. To make it even harder, often times, Father God and God the Father speak in Unison. Its not an easy task. You need fine tuned, razor sharp spiritual discernment to “see” it.
The old testament is supposed to create contrast between flesh and spirit. The biggest give away that we are not dealing with God the Father and His spirit is failure of Israelites to obey and follow Father god perfectly. If his commanding was enough, God wouldn't have needed a remnant and the gentiles wouldn't have been introduced to the Grace family.
Why aren't they the same? God had a disagreement within himself. The disagreement caused Him to split in to 3 circles (this is symbolic). The result was God the Father, Father god, and Mother godess.
This knowledge was given to me by Christ (audibly, He spoke to me) through divine Revelation during a 4 month long miracle I experienced in 2017. Christ was serious about not calling Father god, God, only God the Father is God.
If they came to God they were.If "we" are Gentiles then we were never under the schoolmaster Paul was referring. So, how could "we" still be under the old covenant's laws given only to Israel? Think about it, Gentiles were never under the ten commandments, never required to observe the ritual commands like the weekly Sabbath.
Abraham came to God and he was not under the Law given at Sinai. Your statement is not true, if Gentiles lived under the Abrahamic covenant their salvation was secured. That was not so under the covenant given at Sinai. That covenant was not about salvation. That covenant was about how God wanted them to live in the land that was given to them. Not one word of that covenant could save them.If they came to God they were.
God never required a Gentile to come under the dictates of the Sinai covenant. It was always by free will, so your scripture doesn't help your argument.Exod 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Paul was referring to the Jews. The Gentiles were never under the Law. Gentiles actually had their own law, the one given to Abraham.And Galatians says if we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. For against it's fruits there is no Law. A condition is placed by the word if. So if we are not led by the Spirit we are under the law, the schoolmaster.
Beautiful verses Him. If we possess all those traits there is nothing to condemn. If we have the Royal Law of Love in our hearts, we will love others as Jesus loves us. He loves us so much He came from Heaven to live and die for all our sins in order that we too may have eternal life in Heaven with Him. Love, not Law, is our key to Heaven. Since we are not under the ritual commands of the covenant given only to Israel, we are not obligated to observe any of the rituals of the covenant. in fact, Jesus said He came to bring the Law to an end and when we try to observe its rituals, we don't respect what Jesus came and did.Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
This needs addressed first. Why do you erase the quote tags when you post. It is as if you want to respond but you don't want the person you responded to know. I don't typically read your post and would not have known you responded to mine if I had not taken the time to look. It isn't right. It can give a false impression that the person you responded to has no response to your opinion if they don't happen to stumble upon your post. I don't expect you to understand this but it needed said before anything else in your posted is addressed.Abrham came to God and he was not under the Law given at Sinai. Your statement is not true, if Gentiles lived under the Abrahamic covenant their salvation was secured. That was not so under the covenant given at Sinai. That covenant was not about salvation. That covenant was about how God wanted them to live in the land that was given to them. Not one word of that covenant could save them.
God never required a Gentile to come under the dictates of the Sinai covenant. It was always by free will, so your scripture doesn't help your argument.
Paul was referring to the Jews. The Gentiles were never under the Law. Gentiles actually had their own law, the one given to Abraham.
Beautiful verses Him. If we possess all those traits there is nothing to condemn. If we have the Royal Law of Love in our hearts, we will love others as Jesus loves us. He loves us so much He came from Heaven to live and die for all our sins in order that we too may have eternal life in Heaven with Him. Love, not Law, is our key to Heaven. Since we are not under the ritual commands of the covenant given only to Israel, we are not obligated to observe any of the rituals of the covenant. in fact, Jesus said He came to bring the Law to an end and when we try to observe its rituals, we don't respect what Jesus came to do.
So, Him, you wrote: "I don't expect you to understand this." Seems like a slam doesn't it. Could it just be that I didn't realize it is a good thing to do? Also, I didn't erase anything, Him. If it will make you feel better, I will give myself 10 lashes with a wet noodle.This needs addressed first. Why do you erase the quote tags when you post. It is as if you want to respond but you don't want the person you responded to know. I don't typically read your post and would not have known you responded to mine if I had not taken the time to look. It isn't right. It can give a false impression that the person you responded to has no response to your opinion if they don't happen to stumble upon your post. I don't expect you to understand this but it needed said before anything else in your posted is addressed.
Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday April 21, 2023 at 12:11 pm EDT! Paul is not the first to give us the result of disobeying God's will to separate sin from our character. We find what Paul is saying by comparing Judaism to Hagar in the story of Abel. Abel brought the firstborn lamb from his flock according to God's will, while Cain brought the fruit of the ground before God in his own "human effort" to replace what God wanted. Cain substitutes God's will with his own human will as Judaism has done when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar. Jesus tells us in Matthew below that Judaism "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces". Jesus has freed us from Judaism's sabotage of God's law through Paul, allowing the Gentiles who were turning to God to adopt God's law without human rules in Judaism, as James allowed God to fulfill the prophesy of restoring the house of David in the first Jerusalem Counsel of the church.You seem to think it is acceptable to deceive potentially naive readers by inserting your own words to change the meaning of the text!
Him said:
Abraham came to God and he was not under the Law given at Sinai. Your statement is not true, if Gentiles lived under the Abrahamic covenant their salvation was secured. That was not so under the covenant given at Sinai. That covenant was not about salvation. That covenant was about how God wanted them to live in the land that was given to them. Not one word of that covenant could save them.
Him said:
God never required a Gentile to come under the dictates of the Sinai covenant. It was always by free will, so your scripture doesn't help
your argument.
No, let's look at the passage and we will see.Him said:
Paul was referring to the Jews.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.The Gentiles were never under the Law. Gentiles actually had their own law, the one given to Abraham.
He came to establish His Law, His Word in our hearts so we do because we want to not because we have to.Beautiful verses Him. If we possess all those traits there is nothing to condemn. If we have the Royal Law of Love in our hearts, we will love others as Jesus loves us. He loves us so much He came from Heaven to live and die for all our sins in order that we too may have eternal life in Heaven with Him. Love, not Law, is our key to Heaven. Since we are not under the ritual commands of the covenant given only to Israel, we are not obligated to observe any of the rituals of the covenant. in fact, Jesus said He came to bring the Law to an end and when we try to observe its rituals, we don't respect what Jesus came and did.
Brother, Grace and peace to you!Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday April 21, 2023 at 12:11 pm EDT! Paul is not the first to give us the result of disobeying God's will to separate sin from our character. We find what Paul is saying by comparing Judaism to Hagar in the story of Abel. Abel brought the firstborn lamb from his flock according to God's will, while Cain brought the fruit of the ground before God in his own "human effort" to replace what God wanted. Cain substitutes God's will with his own human will as Judaism has done when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar. Jesus tells us in Matthew below that Judaism "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces". Jesus has freed us from Judaism's sabotage of God's law through Paul, allowing the Gentiles who were turning to God to adopt God's law without human rules in Judaism, as James allowed God to fulfill the prophesy of restoring the house of David in the first Jerusalem Counsel of the church.
It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith. (Hebrews 11:4 NLT)
Faith is the understanding that only God can use laws to separate sin from our character. Judaism shows that our own rules, like replacing the Sabbath in the fourth commandment with Sunday, "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces", because we are "blind guides" to use our own rules to remove sin from our character as God's laws do when obeyed.
Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)
Hagar is not the will of God expressed on Mount Sinai but a "human attempt" to fulfill the will of God expressed on Mount Sinai. Therefore, it is not God's laws that are tied to Hagar, but human rules found in Judaism that come from sinful "blind guides" to use laws to accomplish God's will expressed on Mount Sinai.
Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), do you know what the law actually says? (The law says what is sin) The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character). But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them (Judaism is enslaved in sin because they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin). And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin)to the law(added by the translators, not found in the original). But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman (free from sin), and she is our mother. As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!” And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise (the promise to remove sin from our character), just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit. But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)
Jesus says in the following passage that Judaism: "shut the door of the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces". Hagar's son to Abraham came from the human will and not from God's will to give Abraham a son through Hagar. It is not God's laws expressed on Mount Sinai that "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces", it is Judaism's human replacement rules for God's laws that "shut the door of the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces" that Jesus has freed us from through Paul.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)
United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Paul never compares Judaism to Hagar in the sense that you mean. To sustain your non-scriptural position about the status of the law, you are forced to rewrite what Paul is saying in Galatians 3 and 4. Paul characterizes the Jew who is subject to the Law of Moses as being in slavery. This is clear from the context as we will see.Abel brought the firstborn lamb from his flock according to God's will, while Cain brought the fruit of the ground before God in his own "human effort" to replace what God wanted. Cain substitutes God's will with his own human will as Judaism has done when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar.
Did what?If they came to God they did though.
The first part of Gal 3 Paul was chastising the mostly Gentile Galatian church. Later in the chapter He was referring to the Jews and their laws. When reading Gal 3 one must realize Gentiles were never under the dictates of the covenant given to Israel.No, let's look at the passage and we will see.
From the same chapter. He is obviously speaking to the gentiles.
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
God has had rules for man since the beginning. Trying to convnce others that those rules were the same as the ones given to Israel is perposterious.Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Abraham obeyed His voice, God's Spirit and kept God's charge, His commandments, statutes and laws. He followed because he wanted to not because he had to. This is how it is and was intended for us since Adam. To obey His voice through His Spirit, to keep His charge, His commandments, statutes and laws. Jew and Gentile both have access to this since the beginning.
I don't understand what you are trying to prove.Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.He came to establish His Law, His Word in our hearts so we do because we want to not because we have to.
As stated in previous post, this idea that Paul sees Hagar as a model for "human efforts to replace the Law" does not work given the context. Instead, it is clear that Paul sees Hagar as a model for the Jews under the Law of Moses. This is big, crucial difference.Paul is not the first to give us the result of disobeying God's will to separate sin from our character. We find what Paul is saying by comparing Judaism to Hagar in the story of Abel. Abel brought the firstborn lamb from his flock according to God's will, while Cain brought the fruit of the ground before God in his own "human effort" to replace what God wanted. Cain substitutes God's will with his own human will as Judaism has done when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar.
As stated in previous posts, this idea that Paul sees Hagar as a model for "human efforts to replace the Law" does not work given the context. Instead, it is clear that Paul sees Hagar as a model for the Jews under the Law of Moses. This is big, crucial difference.Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday April 21, 2023 at 12:11 pm EDT! Paul is not the first to give us the result of disobeying God's will to separate sin from our character. We find what Paul is saying by comparing Judaism to Hagar in the story of Abel. Abel brought the firstborn lamb from his flock according to God's will, while Cain brought the fruit of the ground before God in his own "human effort" to replace what God wanted. Cain substitutes God's will with his own human will as Judaism has done when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar.
Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin),.... (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)
I understand that you are motivated to argue the law is still in force, but what is your specifically Biblical support for this idea that faith is about God using laws?Faith is the understanding that only God can use laws to separate sin from our character.
Obvious circular argument - you assume the very thing that is under debate. We get it - you think the Sabbath Law still applies; but you need to make an actual case.Judaism shows that our own rules, like replacing the Sabbath in the fourth commandment with Sunday,
You continue to take it upon yourself to "correct" Paul and hope to preserve a patina of legitimacy by slipping in with it with the "with commentary" annotation at the end.Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism),..... (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)
Let no naive reader fall for this deceptive edit - the original text does not say anything remotely close to characterizing righteous living as "obeying the 11 commandments", with the very notion of 11 commandments being yet another of your imaginative additions to the word of God.Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)
Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday April 28, 2023 at 12:16 pm EDT! The "curse" and the "guardian" examples are evidence that the problem for Paul is Judaism's human replacement rules for God's law when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar. For example, instead of obeying God by learning to use His name properly, Judaism replaced God's Third Commandment with their own human rule to not utter God's name at all, thus disobeying to learn to use God's name properly. Paul tells us in the next passage that Judaism is under a curse because Judaism does not obey "all" that God asked, as Jesus confirmed by saying that they "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces" by having them disobey the Third Commandment of using God's name properly when they choose not to use God's name at all. Placing Judaism under the curse because they do not obey "all" that God asked, like Cain chose not to obey what God asked. Cain's disobedience is in contrast to his brother Abel, who did "all" that God asked. Abel is an example of faith for all of us who follow Abel's faith of obeying God and not human replacement rules like Cain did, instead of obeying God. God is not a blind guide to remove sin like Cain and the rest of the human race are blind guides, making it possible for God to use laws to separate sin from our character through the practice of daily repetition made clear by the death of so many animal sacrifices before the Father made Jesus our High Priest to forgive sins through prayer. A practice of daily repetition like someone learning to master playing the piano, which Paul calls slavery to righteous living.As stated in previous post, this idea that Paul sees Hagar as a model for "human efforts to replace the Law" does not work given the context. Instead, it is clear that Paul sees Hagar as a model for the Jews under the Law of Moses. This is big, crucial difference.
I wanted to respond with "the law of Judaism" but since it was God who gave the Law through Moses it is primarily the Law of God intended for the people of Israel.Brothers and Sisters
No, no, and no again. This is pure fiction intended to forcefully impose a specific meaning on the text and in, doing so, you do enormous violence to the relevant texts. Let's talk first about the guardian from Galatians 3.Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday April 28, 2023 at 12:16 pm EDT! The "curse" and the "guardian" examples are evidence that the problem for Paul is Judaism's human replacement rules for God's law when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar.
I think this is an interesting passage about the law of Moses being called the law of God. Of course, almost no one thinks that the laws that Luke refers to are for Christians today.I wanted to respond with "the law of Judaism" but since it was God who gave the Law through Moses it is primarily the Law of God intended for the people of Israel.
Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday May 5, 2023 at 12:21 pm EDT! What came from God is the word "order" (diatassó) and not the word "law" (nomos) in the passage. Paul's use of another word than "law" to refer to God's will through prophets like Moses, undoubtedly shows what is verified by comparing Judaism with Hagar: Paul's use of the word "law" refers to the human will to give Abraham a son through Hagar rather than the will of God to give Abraham a son through Sarah. In brief: Paul's "law" refers to the human will in Hagar rather than the will of God in Sarah. People have assumed the opposite, in contradiction to Paul's call to obey God, rather than Judaism's disobedience of replacing God's "order" with human "law" to make obeying more bearable by eliminating the need to learn to separate the sin that God's "order" removes if obeyed, which they nullified by human "law" skipping the cycle of removing sin through many animal sacrifices. Judaism effectively put their faith in their human "law", rather than in God's "order" through the prophets. In brief, the fact there is no doubt that Paul is using another word to refer to the will of God shows that Paul's use of the word "law" does not refer to the will of God shared by the prophets like Moses. There is no change in focus in the use of the word "law" by Paul in the following passage, because when Paul refers to God's "order" through the prophets, Paul uses a different word: "order" (diatassó) than the word "law" (nomos), which he reserves to refer to the human "law" of Judaism. The translators have changed words, mystifying what was plain, by causing the translation to lean toward their established views, which were governed by tradition. They changed the word "added" (prostithémi) to "given", because the translators assumed the word "law" to be God's "order" through the prophets, in contradiction to the rest of Paul's message when he tells us to obey God rather than sin in what he calls "slaves to righteous living" rather than "slave to sin". "Slave to sin" by blind guides replacing God's "order" through the prophets with human "law" that allow them to keep the sin that God's "order" through the prophets was given to remove. For example, instead of obeying God by learning to use His name properly, Judaism replaced God's Third Commandment with their own human law to not utter God's name at all, thus disobeying to learn to use God's name properly. As Jesus tells us, Judaism "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces" with their own human "law" replacing God's "order" through the prophets.Are you seriously going to suggest that a "law" of human rules was ordered by angels. That, of course, is not remotely possible.
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