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From what law did Paul set us free?

From what law did Paul set us free?

  • the law of Judaism

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • the law of God

    Votes: 5 62.5%

  • Total voters
    8

Soyeong

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Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

So please Biblically demonstrate, in agreement with all the NT (e.g., Eph 2:15, Col 2:14),
that the cessation of the required observance in the NT of the
Levitical priesthood laws,
sacrificial laws,
food laws,
purification laws after childbirth and for abnormal bodily discharges,
cleansing ceremonies for cured skin diseases and cleansed houses,
Day of Atonement ceremonies, etc.
is contra-NT, as you assert.
The NT authors considered the OT to be Scripture and quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order support what they were saying, and you just spoke against following Leviticus, so you just gave biblical demonstration that your position is against both the OT and the NT. The Torah is truth, so if you assert that the truth is against the NT, then you are again speaking against the both the OT and NT.
 
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Clare73

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The NT authors considered the OT to be Scripture and quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order support what they were saying, and you just spoke against following Leviticus, so you just gave biblical demonstration that your position is against both the OT and the NT. The Torah is truth, so if you assert that the truth is against the NT, then you are again speaking against the both the OT and NT.
Non-responsive to my request for a specific Biblical demonstration of your undemonstrated, and therefore meritless, assertion.
 
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Soyeong

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Non-responsive to my request for a specific Biblical demonstration of your undemonstrated, and therefore meritless, assertion.
Non-responsive to the demonstration of your position being against the Bible. Leviticus is God's word and you speak against it and it truth so you oppose truth.
 
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Clare73

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Non-responsive to the demonstration of your position being against the Bible. Leviticus is God's word and you speak against it and it truth so you oppose truth.
It is my Biblical response that you are not addressing.
 
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Clare73

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You spoke against Leviticus, which is part of the Bible, so your response was not biblical, but rather it was contra-biblical.
You speak against the NT, so your response is not Biblical, but contra-Biblical.
 
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Bob S

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Paul didn't set us free from any Law. Jesus set the Jews free from Torah. Torah was the laws of the old covenant. Jesus brought forth the new and better covenant at Calvary. He ratified it with His own blood thus ending the Mosiac covenant with all its rituals including the ritual weekly Sabbath.
The NT authors considered the OT to be Scripture and quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order support what they were saying, and you just spoke against following Leviticus, so you just gave biblical demonstration that your position is against both the OT and the NT. The Torah is truth, so if you assert that the truth is against the NT, then you are again speaking against the both the OT and NT.
Certainly, the Old Testament was God's word to the Israelites. The New Testament is God's word to all mankind. It is called the new covenant. The old way of the Jews has ended thus Paul could rightly tell us in Eph2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

You and all of the other forum participants can deny Eph 2:15, but your denials only confuse the fact that we are living under the new covenant.
 
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guevaraj

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You and all of the other forum participants can deny Eph 2:15, but your denials only confuse the fact that we are living under the new covenant.
Brother, you are relying on a bad translation you prefer over a better translation in the following passage! Paul knows that the Ten Commandments can be sabotaged by human rules, as in the story of Hagar, so that they don't take away sin. This sabotage is found in Judaism. For this reason, instead of focusing on obedience to the law of Judaism, as Judaism did by making up their own rules to help them obey the law of God, Paul focused on the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. By focusing on sin instead of obedience to the law of Judaism, Paul protects God's Ten Commandments from human rules that sabotage the purpose of God's law to take away sin when obeyed.

For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances (human rules), that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. (Ephesians 2:14-16 ESV)​

We need to do what God asks and not follow our own human rules, because God is not a "blind guide" to use laws to remove sin that our own rules do not remove. Judaism leads to death because they have substituted many of God's laws with their own rules that do not remove sin. Paul wants you to keep the law of God without talking about obedience to the law of Judaism when he focuses instead on the purpose of the law of God to take away sin when obeyed.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Clare73

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I've said nothing the NT, only against you interpreting the NT in a way that is against the the truth of the OT.
As I've said nothing against the OT, only against you interpreting the OT in a way that is against the truth of the NT, who is Jesus (Jn 14:6), the divine Son of God.
 
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Soyeong

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Paul didn't set us free from any Law. Jesus set the Jews free from Torah. Torah was the laws of the old covenant. Jesus brought forth the new and better covenant at Calvary. He ratified it with His own blood thus ending the Mosiac covenant with all its rituals including the ritual weekly Sabbath.
In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so you post is opposed to following truth, and Jesus did not set us free from truth, but just the opposite, truth is what sets us free from bondage to sin (John 8:31-36). In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they taught against following the Torah, so if Jesus had tried to do what you suggest, then those who reject him as being a false prophet would be correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed His people to do. However, in Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished at Calvary is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20), while the way to reject what Jesus accomplished at Torah is by you promoting the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example, and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining everything that he taught and accomplished through the cross, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33), which includes the command to keep the Sabbath holy.

Certainly, the Old Testament was God's word to the Israelites. The New Testament is God's word to all mankind. It is called the new covenant. The old way of the Jews has ended thus Paul could rightly tell us in Eph2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

You and all of the other forum participants can deny Eph 2:15, but your denials only confuse the fact that we are living under the new covenant.

In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, however, Ephesians 2:14-15 is referring to a law that is not eternal, therefore it is not referring to any of God's laws. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so it wouldn't make sense to interpret a few verses later as saying that Jesus ended God's instructions for how to equip us to do every good work, especially because God's instructions for how to do good works are not a dividing wall of hostility. God did not make any mistakes when He gave His law, so He had no need to send Jesus to abolish His own law, especially when He instructed His people not to listen to anyone who speaks against obeying it even if they perform signs and wonders. Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be ended without first ending God.

The Greek word "dogma" is used five times in the Bible, twice in regard to the decrees of Caesar (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7), and once, in regard to the decree of the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so you need to give justification for why it should be interpreted in Ephesians 2:15 as referring to all of the Law of God, and justification for why Paul should interpreted in a way that makes him out to be a false prophet and then justification for why we should follow a false prophet instead of God. The reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying Him and your post should be rejected as being in opposition to truth.
 
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Soyeong

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As I've said nothing against the OT, only against you interpreting the OT in a way that is against the truth of the NT, who is Jesus (Jn 14:6), the divine Son of God.
I interpret the OT and the NT as being in complete agreement with each other, so I do not interpret the OT as speaking against the NT or the NT as speaking against the OT, but you interpret the NT as speaking against obeying what God commanded in Leviticus, which is speaking against following the truth of the OT.

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said is true, so according to that precedent, disagreement with the OT is the standard by which we should reject the truth of what Paul said, and we should not interpret Paul as saying things that the Bereans would have flat out rejected. In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so if Paul had been doing that, then those who reject what he said would be correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed His people to do. God simply did not leave His people any room to follow anyone who speaks against obeying the Torah.

The Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus expressed the nature of God through living in sinless obedience to the Torah, so he embodied the way, the truths and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7). The Torah is God word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he is the same truth as the Torah, not in opposition to it.
 
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Clare73

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I interpret the OT and the NT as being in complete agreement with each other, so I do not interpret the OT as speaking against the NT or the NT as speaking against the OT,
And I make the same claim.







 
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Clare73

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If you interpret the NT as speaking against obeying what Leviticus instructs, then you are not interpreting the OT and the NT as being in complete agreement with each other.
If you interpret the OT as speaking against obeying what the apostles authoritatively instruct, then you are not interpreting the NT and the OT as being in complete agreement with each other.
 
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Soyeong

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If you interpret the OT as speaking against obeying what the apostles authoritatively instruct, then you are not interpreting the NT and the OT as being in complete agreement with each other.

The way that I interpret the OT does not change the fact that you are interpreting the NT as being against Leviticus, so your interpretation of the NT is contrary to the truth. However, I do not interpret the OT as speaking against against obeying what the apostles authoritatively instruct. Rather, it is your interpretation of the NT that the OT speaks against.

The OT instructs not to listen to anyone who speaks against obeying the Torah. I do not think that the NT speaks against obeying the Torah, so I do not think that the OT instructing not to list to anyone who speaks against the Torah is speaking against the NT, but you interpret the NT as speaking against obeying the Torah, so again it is your interpretation of the NT that the OT speaks against. It is contradictory for you to claim that you interpret the OT and the NT as being in complete agreement with each other while you are interpreting the NT as speaking against obeying Leviticus.
 
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Clare73

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The way that I interpret the OT does not change the fact that you are interpreting the NT as being against Leviticus,
The way I interpret the NT does not change the fact that you are interpreting the OT as being against the NT.
 
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Soyeong

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The way I interpret the NT does not change the fact that you are interpreting the OT as being against the NT.
I do not interpret the OT as being against the NT, only against your erroneous interpretation of the NT. It remains that you interpret the NT as being against what God's word says is truth, whereas I interpret the NT as being in complete agreement with what God's word says is truth.
 
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Clare73

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I do not interpret the OT as being against the NT, only against your erroneous interpretation of the NT. It remains that you interpret the NT as being against what God's word says is truth, whereas I interpret the NT as being in complete agreement with what God's word says is truth.
I do not interpret the NT as being against the OT, only against your erroneous interpretation of the OT. It remains that you interpre the OT as
being against what the word of God says is truth , whereas I interpret the OT as being in complete agreement with what the word of God says is truth.
 
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expos4ever

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Brothers and Sisters, Paul assumes the listener knows what is written elsewhere and uses summary words like "the law" where the word has already been expanded elsewhere. When Paul uses the word law, unqualified, he is referring to the law of Judaism....
There is no evidence for this and plenty of evidence to the contrary.
...., allowing the adoption of Moses and everything before Moses by the gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees........ And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​
Please explain to us how the fact that Jesus opposes the Pharisees means that when Paul refers to "the law", he is referring to man-made distortions to the Law of Moses.
James was not limiting what we need to obey, he was giving us permission to adopt Moses without forcing the human traditions of Judaism on us Gentiles, as we turn to God by giving us a seed, a beginning to add to. James saw us as the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath.
You are playing fast and loose with the text. The text does not say that we are "the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath". The text simply comments on the fact that, in the past, Jews listed to the Law every Sabbath:

For these laws of Moses has been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”

What that means is the equivalent of continuing Judaism without human traditions.
Why? I see absolutely nothing in the text to support such a conclusion.
Paul is against the "human effort" in Judaism, as in the story of Hagar, to sabotage the law of God to not remove sin, sin that the law of God is meant to remove.
Where does Paul say anything like this when we remove your doctoring of the text?

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism ***You added this!), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness ***You added this!)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God ***You added this!)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness ***You added this!), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin ***You added this), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments ***You added this!), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments ***You added this!)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness ***You added this), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments ***You added this). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments ***You added this!), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments ***You added this!). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)

Let's be clear: At least 11 times, yes 11 times, you doctor the text to make it say what you want it to. There is no justification whatsoever for doing such violence to the text.
 
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