Friendly clarification

[weybourne1]

Have you ever told a lie?



Because "A" has already been demonstrated to be true.

What is "A" exactly, and how has it been demonstrated to be true? True to whom exactly? You? The entire world?

 

[Bro_Sam]

What is "A" exactly, and how has it been demonstrated to be true?

This is the second time you've done this.

We were talking about the Bible, remember?

Second, I know that you know I already answered this because you responded to it. But, for the benefit of others, internal consistency, manuscript evidence, archaeological evidence, prophetic evidence, and statistical evidence of scripture.

Like I said, this seems to be a very common tactic among atheists and darned if you're not determined to prove me right.

therefore it's kind of hard to convince you that there is the possibility that the bible is man-made

No it isn't. Just prevent us with your evidence that it's man made.

I hope you can see the problem with saying "i know god in the bible is real, because it says so in the bible". Circular reasoning works, because circular reasoning works, because circular....etc etc

And I hope you can see the problem with agreeing me that it isn't circular reasoning and then claiming that's it circular reasoning.

I have never been given proof of the existence of any god, therefore I don't accept theism...is that illogical?

Actually, you have been given evidence for the existence of God and yet, you continue to deny it, even though you, yourself admit that there is no evidence that He does not exist. Yes, that is illogical.

Why aren't you a Muslim?

Because it is Unbiblical.

certainly they have "proof" that theirs is the "one true god", no?

No.

If you were given logical proof that Allah is the one true god, would you denounce Christianity?

I would have to.

Any god/demon who might have written or inspired the bible.

OK, first of all, if the person who wrote the Bible is identical to the God described in the Bible, then we can rule out that it is a demon, because demons do not posess the moral or ontological traits of the God of the Bible.

Second, if the person who wrote the Bible is identical to the God described in the Bible, then how do you distinguish the two? How do you know they're not the same person?

the god of the OT did some pretty demonic things, or am I reading the wrong version of the bible?

Really? Name one thing God did that is "demonic".

internal consistency? of the bible? Do you admit to ANY contradictions, or any evidence of amendments along the way, or you think what you're reading today is word-for-word what was originally written?

I don't see any contradictions that are not the result of copyist errors, tranlsation errors, or a lack of study on the part of the reader.

Yes, we do have enough early manuscripts that we can know that our Bible is faithful to the original texts.

Is the bible more accurate than the Qu'ran?

No.

Would a muslim agree with you?

I doubt it.

What makes you certain that your book and your god isn't one of allah's false prophets, there to trick and test the faith of Muslims?

And here is where the logic of the atheist breaks down.

The Quaran has already declared that Christ is a true prophet of God. So if Christ's words are not true, then He is a false prophet and the Quaran is wrong and Allah is imperfect.

 

[Van]

Hi Weyborne1, your quote of me in post 17 is not what I wrote in post 14.

I asked, do you believe in the possibility of God but you did not answer. If you continue not to answer, then you are using a different "golden rule" than the one I am talking about.

I do not have Frans de Waal thesis, but based on an internet summary, tribal behavior within animal groups is similar to tribal behavior within human groups. Guess what a wolf pack does to a stray dog?

If we define morality as acting in accord with shared standards of behavior, then of course animals behave morally. The problem is humans acting in accord with the standards of animals, or for example the NAZI party. On the other hand, if we agree with God's standards of behavior given for individuals to follow, and act accordingly then we are "moral."

Atheists would seem only to be tribal, being ultimately controlled by the rule of "whatever the market will bear." To butcher a paraphase, every atheist is moral in his own eyes.

 

[tansy]

For example, my next question would be, what if the bible was written (or inspired, i should say) by another god/demon in a scheme of trickery? The story you referenced is contained IN the bible, so the argument that is has to be a true story is found within its own pages.

Um, do you mean that another god/demon might inspire the writings in the Bible in order to lure people away from a DIFFERENT god/demon? So that maybe people will obey and worship him? If so, I'm not sure it works. To me, everything in the Bible leads me to worship God (Yahweh), as opposed to any demon. And if you what you say implies that (the Living Creator) God is a demon, well I think that that is a contradiction in terms. Thing is, not only from scripture, but from people's experience, demons (and Satan) have been found to be fickle, deceiving, destructive etc creatures, whereas the being we worship as God (Yahweh) we have found to be loving, kind, merciful etc etc.
And if one realises any of these beings exist and that Satan demands worship, and so does God - but for TOTALLY different reasons, at the very least it makes sense to worship the God of love and life, as opposed to the god of hatred, deception and destruction. (God wants us to worship Him for our benefit, whereas Satan would have us worship him for his own selfish reasons)

Not sure if I'm being clear or not. What I am getting at is this: If I wanted to convince people that MY own god exists and is the one true god, I would write a book that had my god going up against all other gods in some sort of "god olympics", of course I am going to have MY god win. And it must be true if it's written in my book.

The way I see it is that no god who is not like the God described in the Bible, and that people have known over the centuries, could possibly ultimately win.....we don't just believe the Bible because it is written, but because we have found that God;s word within it, is to be trusted.

See what I'm getting at? Some people accept the bible as literal truth without considering other texts considered to be sacred by followers of other faiths, and everyone "knows" that theirs is the "one true god".[/

Some people might..and there is certainly some pretty good stuff in other sacred texts..but I have read about a lot of people who have become dissatisfied with their religion and sacred books..they believe in a creator God, but find there is something missing, and they start petitioning God and saying there must be something more than that which they already know, which only seems to go so far. And then, God has revealed Himself to them through Jesus, and they have entered into a close relationship with God which they previously lacked, and their perception of things has changed.



quote].

 

[weybourne1]

Hi Weyborne1, your quote of me in post 17 is not what I wrote in post 14.

I asked, do you believe in the possibility of God but you did not answer. If you continue not to answer, then you are using a different "golden rule" than the one I am talking about.

I do not have Frans de Waal thesis, but based on an internet summary, tribal behavior within animal groups is similar to tribal behavior within human groups. Guess what a wolf pack does to a stray dog?

If we define morality as acting in accord with shared standards of behavior, then of course animals behave morally. The problem is humans acting in accord with the standards of animals, or for example the NAZI party. On the other hand, if we agree with God's standards of behavior given for individuals to follow, and act accordingly then we are "moral."

Atheists would seem only to be tribal, being ultimately controlled by the rule of "whatever the market will bear." To butcher a paraphase, every atheist is moral in his own eyes.

I apologize if it looks as if my quotes are off (I quoted your entire post and tried to insert my answers, so it got messed up, but I didn't alter one word of your post, it's just in italics as well as my response)

I'll just respond point by point here:

I believe in the possibility of god the same that I believe in the possibility of fairies living in my garden.

In terms of similarities/differences between us and primates (we have a much more recent common ancestor with apes than wolves, and I'm not sure how much we have in common 'morally' with wolves, that's an interesting study though) when it comes to behaviour, primates demonstrate "in group" favouritism (which is common today) and are good to "family" and hostile to outsiders, and the reason for it is simple: treat those who you see again and again very well, and you will be treated kindly in return, therefore you live longer and your genes have a better chance at survival.

What is moral about the book of Deuteronomy? Specifically:

Deuteronomy 22
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

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...whereas I, an atheist, believe that a rapist should be imprisoned for life.

Is Deuteronomy god's word? What about all of the OT? What parts are god's word and what part are man-made? How do you decide what parts to follow and what parts to ignore? What part of you tells you which parts to follow/ignore?

In your opinion, are there no "good" atheists in the world? I can see how people would think that being free of a god's wrath could lead someone to go crazy and do whatever they wanted, but like I said before, I'm a good person, as are all the atheists I know. To assume that we all need a security camera in the sky in order to be good seems just plain scary.

If you found out today that god does not exist, would you go out and sin?


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[Digit]

Hey all,

This is my post in response to what I had referred to as "fundamentally incorrect responses". And allow me to clarify: I want to clear the air about some common atheist misconceptions, and I would like to volunteer myself to be the "ask-the-atheist" guy on here, haha. The way I see it, if I can help to make heads-or-tails of the accurate atheist position, there won't be so much hostility toward the position.

1) Atheism is a lack of belief in god. Some atheists feel so strongly about their position, that they say they are certain there is no god, however there is no way to prove a negative (I can't disprove the hypothesis that there are gnomes living in my basement, I can only assert that there is a lack of evidence for it). Even Richard Dawkins, on his own scale of belief in god from 1-7 (1 being absolute certainty that there is a god, 7 being absolutely certain there is no god), is a 6.9999999, simply because it would be highly unscientific to say that it is impossible that there is a god. We simply don't have the evidence to suggest otherwise.

2) Being an atheist has nothing to do with lacking in moral value, or with just wanting to be free to sin without the fear of god's wrath. I have read this a few times and it frustrates me as an extremely moral individual. We don't get our morals from scripture, and that is pretty basic. The opposing viewpoint would therefore suggest that any individual without a belief in a particular deity could not possibly have any morals, and would be inclined to commit sins of all kinds. I have yet to meet any atheist who fits the latter description. There is evidence for morality in the animal kingdom.

I'll stop there for now, and again, I am here to improve communication between theists and atheists, and I encourage PM's if anyone prefers to reach me that way.

Hey weybourne, I wouldn't mind asking you a few questions actually so thanks for volunteering.

Do you feel that atheism is defined as 'a lack of belief in God or gods' or 'a belief that there is no God or gods' or can it be both - do you feel those are different, the same or what?

In respects to number 2, I believe that to have a sense of morality and understand ethics, there must be some sort of base system by which to judge it by - do you believe this also, and if so/if not why?

Thanks!

 

[tansy]

]

In your opinion, are there no "good" atheists in the world? I can see how people would think that being free of a god's wrath could lead someone to go crazy and do whatever they wanted, but like I said before, I'm a good person, as are all the atheists I know. To assume that we all need a security camera in the sky in order to be good seems just plain scar

I don't think there is anyone who is totally good, whether they are atheists, Christians, Hindus, whatever - and that is really the point (or at least part of it). Without God, none of us can be totally and perfectly righteous, good, loving etc. I am sure there are some Christians who are not as good as some atheists...but God will purify and perfect us (ultimately..we are still in the process). And Scripture says that we can only love God because He has first loved us..it is not so much terror of punishment or fear (in the scared kind of way) that causes us to want to obey God, rather that God loves us and wants what's best for us..also He helps and changes us, and we know He has only good intentions towards us. If you think about it, it is a totally different thing obeying parents who are kind and loving toward you and have your best interests at heart, than it is obeying parents if they are cruel, hit you, insult you or whatever.

 

[Van]

Hi Weyborne1, why did you ask about Deuteronomy? What has that to do with the rules God has given for individuals to follow? You do know the Law of Moses has been replaced by the Law of Christ.

Bottom line, Atheists seem to act in a godless manner, using the "morality" of primates.

One example - I asked if you believe in the possibility of God, but did not get a yes or no answer - violation of Christian standards. The answer I got forces me to make an inference. Not in accord with let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Is the Bible God's inerrant Word? Nope, no doubt bits and pieces have been corrupted, stuff added to be "helpful" but the Bible presents God's message of salvation with great clarity. Paul says all scripture is profitable for us.

Yes, there are absolutely no good "atheists" in the world, just as there are no good theists in the world, for all have sinned.

When I was in the Army, decades ago, we had a rule - follow the last "legal" order given. So if a superior commands me to shoot innocents, I can decline. But more to the point, if I am told, stay here, and then subsequently told to go there, I go there, following the last legal command. So in a similar way, parts of the Bible's commands have been overridden by subsequent revelation. That is why I can use the Law of Moses for instruction, for insight, but I am not held to it unless Christ specifically endorsed the rule.

Another sound rule is to look for stuff that is repeated by the same or other authors, like Love God with all you have, and love others like you love yourself. Hardly a wolf pack theology.

If I found out today that God does not exist, would I go out and sin. First, if God does not exist, how could I sin, or miss God's mark? But, would I do things then that I strive not to do now? I expect so. I am not much of a prize. I pretty much depend on God to guide me toward righteousness, for the fruit of the spirit are love....

 

[Bro_Sam]

Yes, I have told a lie in the past, and?

And what do you call a person who tells lies?

 

[freeport]

Hey all,

This is my post in response to what I had referred to as "fundamentally incorrect responses". And allow me to clarify: I want to clear the air about some common atheist misconceptions, and I would like to volunteer myself to be the "ask-the-atheist" guy on here, haha. The way I see it, if I can help to make heads-or-tails of the accurate atheist position, there won't be so much hostility toward the position.

1) Atheism is a lack of belief in god. Some atheists feel so strongly about their position, that they say they are certain there is no god, however there is no way to prove a negative (I can't disprove the hypothesis that there are gnomes living in my basement, I can only assert that there is a lack of evidence for it). Even Richard Dawkins, on his own scale of belief in god from 1-7 (1 being absolute certainty that there is a god, 7 being absolutely certain there is no god), is a 6.9999999, simply because it would be highly unscientific to say that it is impossible that there is a god. We simply don't have the evidence to suggest otherwise.

2) Being an atheist has nothing to do with lacking in moral value, or with just wanting to be free to sin without the fear of god's wrath. I have read this a few times and it frustrates me as an extremely moral individual. We don't get our morals from scripture, and that is pretty basic. The opposing viewpoint would therefore suggest that any individual without a belief in a particular deity could not possibly have any morals, and would be inclined to commit sins of all kinds. I have yet to meet any atheist who fits the latter description. There is evidence for morality in the animal kingdom.

I'll stop there for now, and again, I am here to improve communication between theists and atheists, and I encourage PM's if anyone prefers to reach me that way.

If you feel people are "judging" you, then I am sorry, and no doubt many are. I do not. Why? Because the evidence I have for God is from God and is personal. People do not come to God because of their own wisdom or strength. That is the exact opposite of how matters are set up. People come to God through Jesus and His teachings because God has led them and revealed to them secrets He hides from the world.


It would be like if I knew an ancient Persian language and judged people as stupid because they did not also take the time to learn this. It would be entirely absurd and conceited to take such a stance.


People operate as well as they can on the information they have.

 

[dluvs2trvl]

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