French Christians, Muslims, Jews rally against gay marriage

[seeking Christ]

I think this debate is headed the way of interracial dating debates of the past.

People keep trying to draw that parallel. Its baseless. Skin color is not sex.

 

[elephunky]

That's not hate crime; no violence is committed. You want to do away with the right to free speech now?

Violence is only 1 aspect.

 

[seeking Christ]

Violence is only 1 aspect.

There is either freedom of speech, or there is not. Do you have it where you live? Do you want it?

 

[GenetoJean]

People keep trying to draw that parallel. Its baseless. Skin color is not sex.

This is an example of one reason the two sides wont ever agree on it. One side, which I am a member of, believe people are born that way and therefor is similar to race and the other side believes it is a choice or a person turns that way. No way for the two to convince the other that I can see.

 

[awitch]

That's not hate crime; no violence is committed. You want to do away with the right to free speech now?

Not at all. I don't want to prosecute those groups for the vile things they say. I don't think they should be censored either. I think what they say should be documented very well so that everyone can hear it. At this point their lunacy is so far over the top that it's actually helping the equality cause and actually driving people out of the church.

 

[durangodawood]

People keep trying to draw that parallel. Its baseless. Skin color is not sex.

Maybe it is.
.
So recently, marriage to a different race was as taboo as gay marriage is now.
.
You cant say for sure how human morals will evolve. But the arc is clearly bending toward gay marriage.
.

 

[seeking Christ]

This is an example of one reason the two sides wont ever agree on it. One side, which I am a member of, believe people are born that way and therefor is similar to race and the other side believes it is a choice or a person turns that way. No way for the two to convince the other that I can see.

Just because a person is born that way does not equate it to skin color. The difference is still sex, or gender, or sexual preference. This is not in any way analogous to skin color.

 

[GenetoJean]

Just because a person is born that way does not equate it to skin color. The difference is still sex, or gender, or sexual preference. This is not in any way analogous to skin color.

and I see it as being similar enough to compare them.

 

[seeking Christ]

Not at all. I don't want to prosecute those groups for the vile things they say. I don't think they should be censored either. I think what they say should be documented very well so that everyone can hear it. At this point their lunacy is so far over the top that it's actually helping the equality cause and actually driving people out of the church.

I agree with all but the last line. I actually have no idea about the facts of the last line, but its horribly stupid to be "driven out of the Church" by over the top lunacy such as you've described. I think in most places you'd have to look pretty far to even find a Church as you describe, and in most places you can find an Episcopal Church, (nice people, just ask Robin Williams) a group of Lutherans, and other Churches that are quite gay friendly. We have more than a couple staunch gay advocates among our Christian ranks on this website, too.

 

[seeking Christ]

Maybe it is.
.
So recently, marriage to a different race was as taboo as gay marriage is now.
.
You cant say for sure how human morals will evolve. But the arc is clearly bending toward gay marriage.
.

Human morality is an arc, and it's bending! Maybe I should adopt that as my tagline? Its a good summary of reality.

 

[GenetoJean]

I agree with all but the last line. I actually have no idea about the facts of the last line, but its horribly stupid to be "driven out of the Church" by over the top lunacy such as you've described. I think in most places you'd have to look pretty far to even find a Church as you describe, and in most places you can find an Episcopal Church, (nice people, just ask Robin Williams) a group of Lutherans, and other Churches that are quite gay friendly. We have more than a couple staunch gay advocates among our Christian ranks on this website, too.

I will agree with you to a point on this statement. Some are driven out of the church but there are churches that are accepting and I mean accepting in different ways.

 

[seeking Christ]

and I see it as being similar enough to compare them.

On what basis? Solely that one is born a certain skin color, and one is also born with a certain sexual preference? (Ignoring for the moment that babies don't desire sex but that develops, and there is no consensus on how much is nurture vs how much is nature)

 

[GenetoJean]

On what basis? Solely that one is born a certain skin color, and one is also born with a certain sexual preference? (Ignoring for the moment that babies don't desire sex but that develops, and there is no consensus on how much is nurture vs how much is nature)

Yes. I dont use born that way because I can prove it; I just believe it. I use always remember being this way with my transgender.

 

[awitch]

I agree with all but the last line. I actually have no idea about the facts of the last line, but its horribly stupid to be "driven out of the Church" by over the top lunacy such as you've described.

I don't mean homosexuals are driven out. I mean people are questioning why their churches are pawns of political action committees and hate groups that use religion to raise money. They are leaving out of disgust.

I think in most places you'd have to look pretty far to even find a Church as you describe,

This wasn't hard to find.
Poor Lil Kid Singing Ain't No Homos Going To Make It To Heaven In Church! - YouTube

 

[seeking Christ]

I don't mean homosexuals are driven out. I mean people are questioning why their churches are pawns of political action committees and hate groups that use religion to raise money. They are leaving out of disgust.

Again, that's a pretty stupid reason to leave. The Church as you describe is rare.

This wasn't hard to find.
Poor Lil Kid Singing Ain't No Homos Going To Make It To Heaven In Church! - YouTube

Yeah I've seen that. You think this demonstrates what that's relevant to our point here, exactly?

 

[awitch]

Yeah I've seen that. You think this demonstrates what that's relevant to our point here, exactly?

My point is that the animus towards homosexuals in the US primarily comes from a segment of the Christian population. This segment is getting smaller and smaller the more they try to demonize the homosexual population and they are destroying Christianity's image as they do it. Rallying around hate is bound to fail and slowly, attitudes are rightly shifting towards tolerance.

Incidentally, Rhode Island House passed 51-19 and now it's off to the Senate, despite all the money raised and used by the National Organization of Marriage. Their political clout seems to be falling apart.

 

[seeking Christ]

My point is that the animus towards homosexuals in the US primarily comes from a segment of the Christian population. This segment is getting smaller and smaller the more they try to demonize the homosexual population and they are destroying Christianity's image as they do it. Rallying around hate is bound to fail and slowly, attitudes are rightly shifting towards tolerance.

Not really so slow. Churches had this figured out in the 60's. You're just getting your info from a tiny little segment that would otherwise be known as extremists. And rallying around hate never had ANYTHING to do with Christianity. If you want to know what a Christian is supposed to hate, here it is:

"These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Go ahead, find fault with that. the rest of what you've been commenting on is no part of Christianity.

Incidentally, Rhode Island House passed 51-19 and now it's off to the Senate, despite all the money raised and used by the National Organization of Marriage. Their political clout seems to be falling apart.

Rhode Island was a gay hotspot in the 70's, this is no indication of any such thing

 

[durangodawood]

Human morality is an arc, and it's bending! Maybe I should adopt that as my tagline? Its a good summary of reality.

Yes!
.
What was once OK (slavery) is now taboo.
What was once taboo (equality for women) is now valued.
.
Morals evolve. We're not done.
.

 

[awitch]

You're just getting your info from a tiny little segment that would otherwise be known as extremists. And rallying around hate never had ANYTHING to do with Christianity.

I agree, but Christianity's problem is that these groups are very loud, wealthy, and politically influential so they are acting as the public face of the faith. They are so vehemently anti-gay, their reputation bleeds onto the progressive, accepting Christians.

"These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Go ahead, find fault with that. the rest of what you've been commenting on is no part of Christianity.

The problem is, they insist they are the true Christians(TM) and everyone else is a hell-bound progressive, liberal, fake Christian.

Rhode Island was a gay hotspot in the 70's, this is no indication of any such thing

Well, after pumping out millions of dollars (much of which was donated by the Catholic Church and Knights of Columbus), they failed to stop SSM in 3 states back in November. They also failed to get an amendment to ban it in a fourth state. They also failed to oust politicians who voted for SSM in NY. I also just found their Starbucks boycott "Dump Starbucks" failed because Starbucks just reported 13% increase in profits. Starbucks also publicly supported SSM.

 

[seeking Christ]

Christianity's problem is that these groups are very loud, wealthy, and politically influential so they are acting as the public face of the faith.

Are they really wealthy?

For them to "act as the face of the faith," is a put-on. For someone to believe such misrepresentation, is a con job. And frankly, since Jimmy Swaggart's fall there have been enough prominent leaders to make some (guessing at a number) 2% create a facade that is about as far from Jesus as could be. Its getting worse, but I don't think those numbers are growing. Instead, people are indeed leaving the Church, being disgruntled with God, and leaving faith altogether. Notice that those are 3 different things ...

And I'll say it again, this is a really dumb reason to leave Christianity. It does seem to be perfectly in line with Biblical prophesy; "that which can be shaken will be shaken, so that which cannot be shaken will remain." God, the one God, has perfect justice. How its possible to judge everyone and do that correctly baffles me, but the above is one part of the process. We're supposed to have "root in ourselves," which may or may not be synonymous with integrity. I think a pagan with integrity will fare better than a wishy-washy Christian that is so affected by this nonsense as to turn their back on God completely.

They are so vehemently anti-gay, their reputation bleeds onto the progressive, accepting Christians.

Well you must admit you've been kinda all over the map in this thread. Your stance has gone from hate crimes offering protection for gay bashers to hate speech, and I don't recall if your goal of gay marriage has been mentioned or not. Those are 3 distinct things, but actually calling for criminalization of homosexual behavior is a completely different ballpark. If some lunatic fringe does that, who's fault is it if people confuse that with the Church as a whole? I mean not even the Pope does that ...

"These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

The problem is, they insist they are the true Christians(TM) and everyone else is a hell-bound progressive, liberal, fake Christian.

Again you're all over the map. People are going to disagree on such things until God Himself puts a stop to it via final judgment. One horribly poor way that Christians disagree is by condemning their brethren for whom Christ died, when Jesus specifically told us NOT to condemn because that's HIS job. So your best bet is as soon as you see somebody doing that to recognize who the phony is. Problem solved? Then compare them to this short list quoted here, and you've got a pretty good guideline. I'd be awfully surprised if there weren't something in your own spirituality similar to it. (By the way God doesn't really hate people who make such a mistake, its the action and the spirit involved with it that He truly does hate. And a Christian should too! But you'll notice the HUGE distinction between that and any lack of tolerance you've been commenting on)

Well, after pumping out millions of dollars (much of which was donated by the Catholic Church and Knights of Columbus), they failed to stop SSM in 3 states back in November. They also failed to get an amendment to ban it in a fourth state. They also failed to oust politicians who voted for SSM in NY. I also just found their Starbucks boycott "Dump Starbucks" failed because Starbucks just reported 13% increase in profits. Starbucks also publicly supported SSM.

It doesn't hurt my feelings any to see the Catholic Church's money go down the drain, especially when they're frivolous with their spending like this. Look at a map of those areas where SSM is accepted! RI is right in the middle of their stronghold, and it was either the original stronghold, or right on the heels of the Village. These recent losses you mention aren't surprising at all, the only surprise on this score is Iowa. Which changed in the issue against the will of the people, due to judicial activism.