Freemasons?

[Woodsy]

The Magi followed an inverted pentagram to get to Christ?

 

[KennySe]

Modern science was very much founded by Christians who were excited by the opportunity to learn more about God through his creation, nature.

I had a red flag wave over my head as I read that, and warning bells in my ears.

Those persons would have learned about God through His Word and His Church. THAT is where they should have looked for God.

 

[Plan 9]

I had a red flag wave over my head as I read that, and warning bells in my ears.

Those persons would have learned about God through His Word and His Church. THAT is where they should have looked for God.

red flags?? warning bells?

They did read their Bibles and they did go to church, (when the Bible was translated intoo their native tongue, of course). C'mon, give me a break Kenny! LOL

 

[Plan 9]

The Magi followed an inverted pentagram to get to Christ?

Tribe, why are you being so sarcastic? There's no need for that. But, I'll answer you in kind: can you capture a literal star and put in your house?

If you want to know more about OES, great; I'll tell you. but if your mind's already made up, I'll go post on a thread where my fellow Christians are a tad more polite. What would everyone prefer?

 

[Woodsy]

Tribe, why are you being so sarcastic? There's no need for that.

I was simply stating what you seemed to be implying.

But, I'll answer you in kind: can you capture a literal star and put in your house?

No, but iconography exists for a reason. And the inverted pentagram has associations which aren't exactly Christian.

If you want to know more about OES, great; I'll tell you. but if your mind's already made up, I'll go post on a thread where my fellow Christians are a tad more polite. What would everyone prefer?

I know about the Order of the Eastern Star, and the Freemasons from close association. As I have said, my information is not form websites, nor is it third- or fourth-hand.

I honestly didn't realize that my question about the star was enough to make you leave this thread. I apologize, as such was not my intent.

 

[billmcelligott]

well aside from you dodging my question, you do seem to continue to affirm for us that Masonry is teaching about revelation from God and it isn't compatible with direct revelation that we find in Christianity.

You say I dodged your question. Well if you mean I did not give you the answer you were fishing for then , Yes I did.

You question had the presumption that Masonry is an alternative to Christianity , it is not.

If you want religion, then go to Church. Thats my answer.

In Masonry you will find God fearing men. It is you who are trying to force the acceptance that Masonry is a religion when you know, or at least should know that the discussion of religion is not acceptable within the Lodge. Why? so that harmony reigns and discord is banished.

Discussion of Politics is also denied, does that make Masonry a politic Party, no of course not.

I have been debating for many years now and I can see the trip wires on the path. Lest get to the point of the argument.

Is Masonry a religion. Answer me this question please. How do you have a religious organization, in which non of its members accept that they are taking part in a service of religion. Or that they are offered salvation through this organization. Or that, they do not wish to turn there backs on there accepted faith or their God.

How can you be in a religous faith by default. The basic meaning of the term faith , by its own definition is your faith in your God. It can not be imposed. You either have fiath or you do not.

So one day you love Jesus and worship him with all your heart, you join a Masonic Lodge and the next day your worshiping Satan. Lets get real here, it just does not happen.

Lets take your own situation geo, you say you were a 33rd degree Mason , did you have to swear an oath to Satan. did you forsake Jesus when you were a Mason. Have you ever denied Jesus for the sake of Freemasonry. Did you take your oath as a Mason and your faith seriously.

 

[Plan 9]

I was simply stating what you seemed to be implying.


No, but iconography exists for a reason. And the inverted pentagram has associations which aren't exactly Christian.



I know about the Order of the Eastern Star, and the Freemasons from close association. As I have said, my information is not form websites, nor is it third- or fourth-hand.

I honestly didn't realize that my question about the star was enough to make you leave this thread. I apologize, as such was not my intent.

I'll be happy to explain to you what happend.

Aliester Crowley took our symbol, threw out the symbol in the middle (a Bible on a stand) and the ones in each of the star points, which stand for five notible women of the Bible (one from the NT and four from the OT). Then he put a goat's head in the middle, because he claimed to woship Pan and went on the be the most notorious black magician of the last century. So, his version is in every other horror film from from the sixties on and now it's ingrained in the popular mind as a symbol of Satan.

We are not to blame for what he did.

The Ankenburg link is hardly firsthand.

Are you saying that you were a member of OES?

 

[billmcelligott]

As others have used the Catholic Enc. I thought it would be acceotable. I see no mention of prentagrams.

Magi
(Plural of Latin magus; Greek magoi).

The "wise men from the East" who came to adore Jesus in Bethlehem (Matthew 2).

Rationalists regard the Gospel account as fiction; Catholics insist that it is a narrative of fact, supporting their interpretation with the evidence of all manuscripts and versions, and patristic citations. All this evidence rationalists pronounce irrelevant; they class the story of the Magi with the so-called "legends of the childhood of Jesus", later apocryphal additions to the Gospels. Admitting only internal evidence, they say, this evidence does not stand the test of criticism.

The Church, indeed, in her liturgy, applies to the Magi the words: "The kings of Tharsis and the islands shall offer presents; the kings of the Arabians and of Saba shall bring him gifts: and all the kings of the earth shall adore him" (Psalm 71:10). But this use of the text in reference to them no more proves that they were kings than it traces their journey from Tharsis, Arabia, and Saba.

 

[Plan 9]

Here are some OES links, if anyone is interested. They make pretty boring reading if you're used to Ani-Masonic links, though. These are already posted in the other Masonic thread, so some of you may have seen these sites already.


http://oes.itgo.com/robmorris.html
http://www.masonicsites.org/oes54/morris1.htm
http://www.orgsites.com/fl/vero-oes/
http://www.easternstar.org/oes/oeshistory.html

 

[Woodsy]

I'll be happy to explain to you what happend.

Aliester Crowley took our symbol, threw out the symbol in the middle (a Bible on a stand) and the ones in each of the star points, which stand for five notible women of the Bible (one from the NT and four from the OT). Then he put a goat's head in the middle, because he claimed to woship Pan and went on the be the most notorious black magician of the last century. So, his version is in every other horror film from from the sixties on and now it's ingrained in the popular mind as a symbol of Satan.

Actually, as a longtime former student of Aleister Crowley and Ceremonial Magick in general (as I have mentioned, my past experiences are rather diverse), I have to say that this is false. Unless of course you believe that Crowley was indeed (as he claimed) the reincarnation of Eliphas Levi, who made use of the inverted pentagram before Crowley was even born. Even the Golden Dawn which Crowley joined, then helped to destroy, recognized the inverted pentagram as an evil symbol.

Generally, in Western Occultism, the top point of a pentagram is considered to represent the element of Spirit. In the Inverted Pentagram, Spirit is in the lowest position, having been conquered by the material world, as represented by the other points which are now all higher than Spirit.

Are you saying that you were a member of OES?

I haven't said that.

 

[Plan 9]

Actually, as a longtime former student of Aleister Crowley and Ceremonial Magick in general (as I have mentioned, my past experiences are rather diverse), I have to say that this is false. Unless of course you believe that Crowley was indeed (as he claimed) the reincarnation of Eliphas Levi, who made use of the inverted pentagram before Crowley was even born. Even the Golden Dawn which Crowley joined, then helped to destroy, recognized the inverted pentagram as an evil symbol.

Generally, in Western Occultism, the top point of a pentagram is considered to represent the element of Spirit. In the Inverted Pentagram, Spirit is in the lowest position, having been conquered by the material world, as represented by the other points which are now all higher than Spirit.


I haven't said that.

The hitch is that when Eliphas Levi borrowed it, no one cared. What I was explaining was how it came to be seen as sinister in the popular mind.
I've studied Levi, too, and Waite and others. If you want to go with what members of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn have to say, then go for it.
Personally, I gave up their philosophical beliefs when I got saved.

I thought you wanted to know what the Eastern Star means to us. Instead, you ask no further questions about that. You've already made up your mind and on the basis of what people like Levi and Crowley have to say. You don't need me to tell you anything, Tribe. Argue occultism with someone who's an occultist. As I said, I gave it up.
By your reasoning, or rather, the reasoning you've borrowed, no good Christian would use the cross as a symbol, either.

 

[Plan 9]

When I put the "Armor of God" on the other day I didn't think I would have to defend myself against other Christians.

Amen, Greeter.

 

[Plan 9]

Edited.

 

[Woodsy]

Plan 9, you didn't answer when I did ask what the inverted pentagram means to OES. Instead of answering my question, you gave me an inaccuracy about Aleister Crowley rather than answering.
And now you seem to be implying that because I accept the fact that occultists have, for a very long time, considered the inverted pentagram to be a symbol of evil, I am "accepting" them instead of Christ.

You and I have run into each other on other threads, and I don't recall us ever having trouble with each other before. I am not meaning an attack against you as a person, even though I make no bones about the fact that I oppose Freemasonry and its sisters. You believe I am laboring under some mistaken impressions.And there we have it.

I'd rather leave it at that than keep going and come away leaving bad feelings with a sister in Christ. I honestly hope it hasn't some to that.

 

[Plan 9]

Here are some OES links, if anyone is interested. They make pretty boring reading if you're used to Ani-Masonic links, though. These are already posted in the other Masonic thread, so some of you may have seen these sites already.


http://oes.itgo.com/robmorris.html
http://www.masonicsites.org/oes54/morris1.htm
http://www.orgsites.com/fl/vero-oes/
http://www.easternstar.org/oes/oeshistory.html[/QUOTE]

I posted these. did you read them, Tribe?

 

[Plan 9]

...our symbol...the symbol in the middle (a Bible on a stand) and the ones in each of the star points, which stand for five notable women of the Bible (one from the NT and four from the OT)...

This is the section of my other post which you ignored.

 

[Woodsy]

And I posted:

I'd rather leave it at that than keep going and come away leaving bad feelings with a sister in Christ. I honestly hope it hasn't some to that.

Olive branch extended. I was saying that the arguing's not worth it to me.

 

[Woodsy]

Olive branch not accepted, I guess.

 

[Plan 9]

Plan 9, you didn't answer when I did ask what the inverted pentagram means to OES. Instead of answering my question, you gave me an inaccuracy about Aleister Crowley rather than answering.

this is because I was trying to answer two of your posts at once, obviously a mistake on my part.[/QUOTE]
And now you seem to be implying that because I accept the fact that occultists have, for a very long time, considered the inverted pentagram to be a symbol of evil, I am "accepting" them instead of Christ.

It is not my intent to imply anything, so let me say it again: you are indeed accepting beliefs of occultists long enough to use them against a Christian. It's not what I would do, but knock yourself out, if you really think that's the right thing to do; just don't do it with me anymore, okay? What I care about is what really goes on in my OES meetings; you don't seem to.

You and I have run into each other on other threads, and I don't recall us ever having trouble with each other before. I am not meaning an attack against you as a person, even though I make no bones about the fact that I oppose Freemasonry and its sisters. You believe I am laboring under some mistaken impressions.And there we have it.
[/QUOTE]
I'm a member of OES. How can you pretend that it isn't personal to me? OES isn't a thing; OES is people.

I'd rather leave it at that than keep going and come away leaving bad feelings with a sister in Christ. I honestly hope it hasn't some to that.

Sorry, too late. I'll pray about it and I'll soon get over it, but I'll be more careful where and what I post in the future.

If it isn't OES, it's something else entirely.
I already blew up at Thaddeus when I was wrong to do so because I get burnt out quickly when I post on the most of threads in the Christian-only fora.

 

[Plan 9]

Plan 9, you didn't answer when I did ask what the inverted pentagram means to OES. Instead of answering my question, you gave me an inaccuracy about Aleister Crowley rather than answering.
And now you seem to be implying that because I accept the fact that occultists have, for a very long time, considered the inverted pentagram to be a symbol of evil, I am "accepting" them instead of Christ.

You and I have run into each other on other threads, and I don't recall us ever having trouble with each other before. I am not meaning an attack against you as a person, even though I make no bones about the fact that I oppose Freemasonry and its sisters. You believe I am laboring under some mistaken impressions.And there we have it.

I'd rather leave it at that than keep going and come away leaving bad feelings with a sister in Christ. I honestly hope it hasn't some to that.

The paragraph of this post is no olive branch.

Tribe, you're a guy in debate mode; you are being too aggressive to post with a shy woman, whether you realize it or not, okay?