Freemasons?

[DEVILSTOMPER777]

Greetings all!
Got a question for today: "Is it true that the Vatican has ok'd Catholics to be Freemasons?" I know in the past you would excommunicated for joining,but how bout today & why or why not?

 

[Avila]

I didn't know that it did ok Freemasonry... If you read up about Freemasonry, there is no way in heck that any true Christian would stand for what they truly believe....

 

[Kotton]

There would have to be a MAJOR change in the Masons. We have heard things of this kind before. Someone is puting out false info.

Kotton

 

[Greeter]

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If you read up about Freemasonry, there is no way in heck that any true Christian would stand for what they truly believe....

Yeah, I have heard statements like these before, except that most of the time "Catholicism" was substituted in for "Freemasonry" and I have the same reaction to them.

I have read extensively about Freemasonry and fail to see the problem(but then I also fail to see the problem with Catholicism).&nbsp; Has people within Freemasonry made mistakes? Yes, but then people of all faiths, colors, creed, nationality, etc. have made some horrible ones.&nbsp; I wouldn't count the Crusades among the list of great moves by the Catholic Church.&nbsp; Speaking of which, that is one of the reasons it is very unlikely&nbsp;for the Catholic Church to accept Freemasonry.&nbsp; Masonic tradition draws much of its history from an order of knights called the Templar who were disbanded after the Crusades.&nbsp; The Templar were one of the more successful orders and&nbsp;accumulated not only great wealth during the Crusades but were said to rescue some Christian artifacts(enter stories about the Holy Grail, Ark of the Covenant, etc).

What happened next is open to&nbsp;speculation but the Catholic Church had cause&nbsp;to arrest all of the order and interrogate them.&nbsp; It was "found" that the Templar were worshipping an idol of some sorts- possibly a head (some say the head of John the Baptist) and all were put to death and the order disbanded.&nbsp; The Templar who were interrogated did admit to witchcraft and idolatry but they did so under torture.&nbsp; At the time it was believed that no one would ever lie under torture.&nbsp; Is this what really happened?&nbsp; I can't say. I have read books on the subject that tell different stories.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Today Freemasonry is a fraternity and my favorite.&nbsp; Is it a Christian fraternity? No, but then that is ok since my favorite nation is not a Christian one either.&nbsp; Belief in God is brought up often within Masonic Lodges but specific religions are not.&nbsp; In fact, discussion of various religions doesn't take place as that would&nbsp;disrupt the harmony of the&nbsp;Lodge.&nbsp; Even if it was to become solely a Christian fraternity, there would be problems as people would fight over what denomination is to be adhered to.

I'm a little surprised&nbsp;the above statement was made by a Catholic.&nbsp; How often are&nbsp;Catholics accused of "what they truly believe . . ."

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Dear Greeter,

I have done some research into Freemasonry, and I must say that there are good reasons for disavowing it. What documentation there is to be found is quite condemning from a Christian perspective, however, in discussions with internet Freemasons, I find they usually disavow said material but fail to produce any material of equal authority to counter it. In fact, they make it a point in saying that they don't have any authoratative documentation on their beliefs.

Until such documentation can be produced, I will trust the judgment of the Church and that documentation which is available (documentation written by Freemasons themselves, not polemic works written by outsiders), and continue my resistance to Freemasonry

 

[Greeter]

Admittedly I had to think a while before posting to this as it is difficult to counter an argument when you aren't sure what the argument is about.

I have done some research into Freemasonry, and I must say that there are good reasons for disavowing it

Such as . . . ?&nbsp; Please give me some examples.

What documentation there is to be found is quite condemning from a Christian perspective, however, in discussions with internet Freemasons, I find they usually disavow said material but fail to produce any material of equal authority to counter it.

That is not too surprising.&nbsp; Those who have the said damaging documentation have gotten it from a source that has pledged to bring down Freemasonry and have done extensive research to find any cracks in it they can.&nbsp; On the internet you have probably spoken to Freemasons who are laymen and haven't researched everything on the subject but are aware of the basics such as it being a fraternity to make men better me, about it not being a religion, etc.&nbsp; I would fall into this category.&nbsp; While I have taught Masonic tradition I haven't read every single piece of documentation out.&nbsp; In truth, I judged Freemasonry by what I saw among its members and within the Lodge walls.&nbsp; I was never concerned about it until my Christian brothers brought it up.&nbsp; I have read many of the tracts and books and followed all the links I could on the internet&nbsp;but have yet to find anything really damaging.&nbsp; All arguments made, that I found concern with, I could make against being a member of the US.

There is going to be a problem with any organization that has secrets.&nbsp; That works for and against Freemasonry.&nbsp; It helps in protecting its members when they need it (Not something that is needed nowadays but there are some neat stories from the time of the civil war).&nbsp; It sometimes limits a person from giving an easy rebuke to offensive material since an oath has been made not to give away any secrets.&nbsp; The general consensus among Masons is to ignore the various attacks.&nbsp; My problem comes in with being Christian and having my faith questioned due to my affiliation with Freemasonry.&nbsp; When a brother brings up a question I try to answer it.

Until such documentation can be produced, I will trust the judgment of the Church and that documentation which is available (documentation written by Freemasons themselves, not polemic works written by outsiders), and continue my resistance to Freemasonry

I understand animosity towards Freemasonry.&nbsp; What I don't understand is when my fellow Christians suddenly want to go on "witch hunts" and look for someone to burn at the stake.&nbsp; It seems like we have enough to do with maintaining our walk with Christ without having to accuse everyone else of getting it wrong.

If Christianity was operating at its best then organizations like Freemasonry would be unnecessary.&nbsp; Freemasonry is setup to promote "Friendship, Morality, Brotherly Love, Faith, Hope, Charity".&nbsp; These are all Christian ideals.

Freemasonry helped me to become saved.&nbsp; After some damaging events with Catholic and Protestant faiths I was ready to give up on Christianity.&nbsp; I still believed in the ideals and would go on to join a Masonic Lodge.&nbsp; As a result of talking extensively with some Christian members and an opportune moment by God I would start attending Church again and found my present Church and became saved.

 

[Avila]

Greeter - I'm glad that Freemasonry has helped you to become saved. However, in the higher up levels, the theology starts getting really funky. I don't have any resources on hand, as a friend loaned them to me some time ago. However, that being said, I'm not on any witch hunt against Freemasons. I just don't think that they are all that kosher after you get past the Joe Schmoe lower level guy.

 

[KC Catholic]

I don't know about Freemasonry - but I could use a low-cost plumber!

Sorry...

 

[ZooMom]

KC.

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Dear Greeter,

That is not too surprising. Those who have the said damaging documentation have gotten it from a source that has pledged to bring down Freemasonry and have done extensive research to find any cracks in it they can. On the internet you have probably spoken to Freemasons who are laymen and haven't researched everything on the subject but are aware of the basics such as it being a fraternity to make men better me, about it not being a religion, etc.

No, this is not true, I have based my understanding of Freemasonry largely on the writings of Albert Pike, a well respected and knowledgable source within Freemasonry. It is not my intention to start a full blown Freemasonry debate, and this is why I have not provided accusations, but instead simply state my support for the Church's position on Freemasonry.

If need be I can produce evidence, but since this would then bring the thread off topic I am reticent to do so at this time.&nbsp; If you truly wish to pursue the topic I can, of course with the permission of those who moderate this particular forum.

 

[Claudia]

The reason people were excommunicated from the Catholic Church for being in the Freemasonry is because of what the Freemasonry really practiced behind the scenes. You can read about it here:&nbsp; http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org&nbsp;

&nbsp;

The Catholic Church wanted to publically disassociate itself from the Freemasonry, because it doesn't look good when things about the Masons are exposed.

&nbsp;

Today however, there is a major move toward ecumenism. It has become fashionable to band together with just about anybody and&nbsp;everything else, no matter who they are and what they stand for. And it is termed "love". The reason? I dont think it could be discussed on a public forum like this.

&nbsp;

Claudia

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&nbsp;

 

[Greeter]

No, this is not true, I have based my understanding of Freemasonry largely on the writings of Albert Pike, a well respected and knowledgable source within Freemasonry.

As often happens, I didn't recognize that name and had to do research on it.&nbsp; Apparently there was an elaborate hoax connected with Albert Pike that doesn't want to die. Here is a link to a website that talks about the hoax of Albert Pike: http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm#i8

It is not my intention to start a full blown Freemasonry debate, and this is why I have not provided accusations, but instead simply state my support for the Church's position on Freemasonry.

I am so glad to hear that.&nbsp; Maybe we can put the issue to rest now.&nbsp; When I put the "Armor of God" on the other day I didn't think I would have to defend myself against other Christians.&nbsp; Once again, I understand animosity towards Freemasonry and acknowledge any churchs right to disapprove of it.

If you truly wish to pursue the topic I can, of course with the permission of those who moderate this particular forum

Hey, only reason I got involved was that quote early on:

If you read up about Freemasonry, there is no way in heck that any true Christian would stand for what they truly believe....

I am sure anyone in here would defend their faith if it was questioned.&nbsp; We should all be careful of judging each other.

The reason people were excommunicated from the Catholic Church for being in the Freemasonry is because of what the Freemasonry really practiced behind the scenes. You can read about it here:&nbsp; target=_blank&gt;[URL="http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org"]http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org[/URL]

Well, at least Freemasonry has some good company on that website- the Catholic Church is shown to have ties to witchcraft and a dark agenda.&nbsp; Once again I think we are looking for signs of Satan in the wrong places.

The Catholic Church wanted to publically disassociate itself from the Freemasonry, because it doesn't look good when things about the Masons are exposed.

Nowadays, Freemasonry is probably glad for that.&nbsp; If it wasn't already the case Freemasonry would publically disassociate itself from the Catholic Church with all that is going on lately.&nbsp; The Catholic Church is still trying to cope with all the ugliness that she has endured- at least down here in S. Florida.

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Dear Greeter,

I am sorry but your link did not work for me. I am not aware of what hoax you are speaking of, but my use of Albert Pike as a resources is quite legitimate.

I would refer you to this website [http://www.masonicinfo.com/pike.htm] which is operated by Freemasons and have included a quote from that website below:

Today, some Masons will diminish Pike's importance so as to deflect the charges of anti-Masons. There is no doubt, though, that he was among the most influential Masons of his time. It must be also remembered that this was a time when communications even with surrounding states was severely limited and travel from place to place took days. Pike wrote Morals and Dogma some eight years before Alexander Graham Bell transmitted the first wireless telephone message!

Other Masons - particularly those who may not be totally familiar with the stature of this man - will dismiss him as meaningless. However, that's not true. Pike was a giant of his time who did extraordinary things in his lifetime. He was, in fact, the ONLY Confederate soldier to be honored in America's capitol: Washington, DC, where a huge statue of him dominates a major intersection (Judiciary Square). See more about that here.

 

[Greeter]

*sigh*

It is not that Pike is a hoax, just what he said and didn't say.&nbsp; The above link shows what he actually said and what quotes have been&nbsp;credited to him that are not his.

Here is another link with quotes from his book Morals and Dogma.

http://www.tracingboard.com/albert_pike1.htm

Please note the "Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. (p. 161)" quote given by him.

I am glad the subject got brought up as there was some really good stuff within some of those websites concerning him.&nbsp; It is a shame that people have tried to use him to denounce masonry when he has done so much for it.

I read your link and found it very informative as well.&nbsp; I am surprised that you gave it since it answers many of the objections to Freemasonry including the damaging quotes given by Pike.&nbsp; I thank you though as it has given me a better insight into things overall.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

http://www.newadvent.org/faq/faq049.htm

What is the Catholic Church's official position on Freemasonry? Are Catholics free to become Freemasons?

Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.

Masonry is a parallel religion to Christianity. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states, "Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward and punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiative and burial rites" (vol. 6, p. 137).

Masonry is also a secret society. Its initiates subscribe to secret blood oaths that are contrary to Christian morals. The prospective Mason swears that if he ever reveals the secrets of Masonry--secrets which are trivial and already well-known--he wills to be subject to self-mutilation or to gruesome execution. (Most Masons, admittedly, never would dream of carrying out these punishments on themselves or on an errant member).

Historically, one of Masonry's primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity. (Those interested in joining a men's club should consider the Knights of Columbus instead.)

The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).

Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church's prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in Origins 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Dear Greeter,

That is why I chose that particular link, to distance myself from false and frivolous claims againt Freemasonry, while maintaining my opposition to Freemasonry. I didn't want you to assume that my opinions were based upon a misrepresentation of Freemasonry.

 

[Annabel Lee]

http://www.freemason.org/
Here is the website for the California Freemasons. My father and both grandfathers were Freemasons. I believe it is just a fraternal organization.

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

For any interested in understanding Freemasonry, I would recommend Pike's book Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry:

http://www.nazorean.com/MysteryTeachings/Morals & Dogma/

Pike receives this ringing endorsement from another fellow Freemason, which is recorded on the website I had mentioned in my previous post:

But the field of Pike's most fruitful labors was Masonry. His career as a Mason is too recent and his standing as a Masonic scholar is too well-known to all of you to call for any statement in this place. But I may remind you that he became Sovereign Grand Commander of the southern jurisdiction in the Scottish Rite in 1859 and devoted the remaining thirty-two years of his life in continually increasing measure to the work of that rite. Excepting Krause no mind of equal caliber has been employed upon the problems of Masonry. And Krause, great scholar and philosopher as he was, had lived only in the cultured serenity of German university towns whereas Pike had lived in staid Boston and turbulent territorial Arkansas, had been compelled by local public opinion to fight in a duel, had fought in two wars and had commanded Indians. Moreover, Krause's Masonic experience was negligible in comparison with that of this veteran of American Masonry. Accordingly we need not hesitate to pronounce Albert Pike by far the best qualified by nature, experience of life, Masonic experience and Masonic learning of those who have thought upon the problems of Masonic philosophy.

My main problem with Freemasonry is its' synchronistic habits. If anyone wants to question this opinion, I would recommend the above reading.

 

[DEVILSTOMPER777]

Thanx for responding....but 1983 is well & fine,but Im speaking of something more recent say late 90's. Hey Wols are ya out there old wise & knowing DUBBA? Please comtinue w/more discussion on this topic....it seems to be getting good!

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

For Greeter if and when he should read this thread:

2 Corinthians 6
14Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

2 Thessalonians 3
6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

2 John
9Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him

If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meeting-houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended. (III Council of Constantinople)

One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: let him be excommunicated. (Council of Carthage)

How do you square this Christian witness with your participation in prayer with those who do not hold to the Christian faith?