Freemasons?

KennySe · Sep 14, 2003

Bill, thank you for your involvement on this thread.

I see how my earlier post could have been interpreted as wanting an explanation of the three "parts" of Jah-Bul-On. That was not my intention, however.

So, would you (or any Lodge member) tell us, specifically, Who is Jah-Bul-On.

Thank you,
Kenny

ej · Sep 14, 2003

'JAOBULON - the deity of Masonry' (from W.J.McCormick's book 'Christ, the Christian and Freemasonry')

Jao is the Greek word for Jehovah

Bul stands for Baal or Bel, and is the sun-god of Babylonia - Nimrod deified. This was the god who sought to CURSE GOD'S PEOPLE through Baalim. This was the idol-god whose altar Gideon was commanded to throw down (Judges).

The Pagan god On or Osiris was amongst those 'gods of Egypt' upon whom the Lord (Jehovah) executed judgement when through Moses He delivered His people from bondage.

Masonry has put these idol-gods into blasphemous association with the Creator, knowing that all who seek to worship God in association wit demon-deities do not really worship Jehovah-God, but rather the Prince of Darkness.

Philip James · Sep 14, 2003

billmcelligott said:
Philip no dodge

again, I notice you didn't answer the question.

But I too, care little if you call him Lucifer, Satan or whatever... he remains the master deciever and pretender, the enemy of God and man.
Far from being the 'light-bringer' that he poses as, in the end, all he brings is death and destruction.

BUt there is ONE who can relese you from his schemes. No matter what promises you have made, or vows you have taken, if you renounce the gnostic/pagan path that you have walked, repent and humble yourself before the Lord, our God, Jesus Christ, HE will free you by HIS blood, wash you and make you clean. Then will you truly be enlightened, and recieve the gift of eternal life.

May HE open your eyes and guide your heart!
I will pray for you Bill,

Peace and Love!
PJ

MariaRegina · Sep 14, 2003

billmcelligott said:
Repeat of previous post, With regard to morman Church.
Masonry can no more stop people from going off and starting a new Society, than a Church can stop a member of the congregation starting a new Church.

Its a personal choice and I would not wish to stop that choice.

Apparently I am not alowed to leave links in to take you to the source material.

I am not knowledgeable about the 'left behind series', so I am sorry I am unable to comment on that other than I had never heard of it . Which is an answer in itself. There is no connection.

You say Mormon as if it were a dirty word. There is no connection between Masonry and the Mormon Church. It was founded I believe by a Mason, probably as he was not encouraged to create an new religion within the Craft. I do not wish to get involved with any detriment to any Christian Church.

No, I am not putting Mormons down. I've known a lot of respectable members of the Latter Day Saints. They are hard working ethical people. One wonderful woman converted to Orthodoxy from Mormonism -- that took a lot of conviction as she was excommunicated from that sect.

Thanks for the information. I can see your point about not starting a religion within Masonry, as they discourage talking about religion, don't they?

Woodsy · Sep 14, 2003

Joseph SMith, founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) was a Mason, and gave their distress call, to no avail, when he was being lynched in jail.
It has been said that the Book of Mormon was largely plagiarized from another book contemporary to Joseph Smith. The book was about Semitic peoples coming to America and becoming the American Indians. That's also the premise of the Book of Mormon.
What is meant by the name Lucifer can be debated, but a quick look at Albert Pike's elucidation of the degrees of Freemasonry, Morals & Dogma (do a Google search on his name and the name Lucifer), will reveal the high esteem in which a character named Lucifer is held within Masonic circles. After all, light or illumination is a goal of a Mason.
A Masonic Lodge may have a Bible, a Quran, etc., depending on whether the majority of the Lodge in question is Christian, Muslim, etc. Their only religious requirement for membership is that one believe in only one god. Of course, I know a fair number of Neopagans who have become Masons by claiming that all the gods and goddesses they worship are actually only one god wearing many masks. In fact, my sources claim that Neopagans are reviving Freemasonry, which was dying out - at least in some areas.
From other sources, I also gather that the Freemasonry of the first 3 degrees (Blue Lodge) is very different and a bit more unusual than the higher degrees. (i.e. - look up the name "Baphomet".)
Of course, most of us only get to talk to Freemasons of the first 3 degrees, so what we hear is pretty innocuous.
Also remember the gruesome oaths of secrecy taken my Freemasons regarding the group's real secrets. (For example, having your throat slit ear to ear, etc.)

Woodsy · Sep 14, 2003

Another great resource is the book and movie titled The God Makers. Though a bit lurid, the book and movie go very in-depth into the elements of Freemasonry that Joseph Smith integrated into Mormonism. The connection is really stunningly noticeable in the Mormon Temples and the Temple initiation ceremonies.
The God makers also explains the whole Mormon concept of how they believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate being, each with their own body of flesh and bone, and how faithful Mormons will become gods of their own planets, which they will get to populate as a result of physical intercourse with their deified wives. They also believe that there are many gods (each populated planet having its own married god and goddess populating it with spirit babies), but that for all intents and puyrposes we only have one god since we are not allowed to worship the gods of other p[lanets. They also believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers in Heaven before the creation of the earth, and that both Jesus and Satan proposed their own plans of salvation. God chose Jesus' plan as the better of the two, and that made Satan angry.

billmcelligott · Sep 14, 2003

The obligation if a Mason does not include an oath to cut ones throat. it says the penalty ( of cutting ones throat) was at one time included in the obligation of a Mason. It is purely symbolic.

I have no idea where some of these mis informations come from. The question posed to each candidate is " do you believe in a supreme being". That is the only requirement to join. As you have metioned lucifer and Albert Pike i offer the following basic information for you to consider. Some of it answers other questions posed.

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

Lucifer from The Catholic Encylopedia:-

(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

Morals and Dogma page 597

For ever, In all the nations, ascending to the remotest antiquity we find, seated above all gods a still higher Deity, silent, undefined, incomprehensible, the Supreme, one God, from Whom all the rest flow or emanate, or by Him are created.

Morals and Dogma page 134

Speak kindly to your erring brother! God pities him; Christ has died for him; Providence waits for him; Heavens mercy yearns toward him; and Heavens spirits are ready to welcome him back with joy.

Morals and Dogma page 14

Masonry does not pretend to be a religion; but it is not irreligious or irreverent. It does not assume to take the place of any religion, or claim to make religion unnecessary. To charge it with this is to libel it. It requires its initiates to believe in one God and a Divine Providence, and that the soul survives the dissolution of the body. Thus it teaches those great primary truths on which all religion must repose; and it inculcates those principles of pure morality which have commended themselves to the good and wise of all ages."

Now we see that Pike said many things some you would agree with some you would not. The same a very many writers.

as I said before the problem with the name Lucifer is it 's a fairly modern term. Some have used the confusion to further their own arguments.

Woodsy · Sep 14, 2003

billmcelligott, you are not talking to someone who has gotten his information third- or fourth-hand.

1.) The oath includes several penalties, one of which entails having one's throat cut ear-to-ear for revealing secret information. Whether it is said to be symbolic or no, the threat is included.

2.) Candidates for initiation are required to believe in only ONE god. During the interview process, the candidate is allowed to explain what they consider to be "one" god. Such as the aforementioned Pagan Freemasons who explained that they considered all of their gods and goddesses to be facets of one supreme Deity.
To continue to insist that this questioning does not take place is disingenuous at best, and false at worst.

Albert Pike had quite a few things to say which you don't quote - about Adonai, about the Bible, about the equality of religions, etc. About how only the vulgar man believes that the Bible is literally true, etc.

Say what you will; I leave it to good Christian men to pray and search scripture so that falsehoods may not mislead them.

billmcelligott · Sep 15, 2003

Tribe said:
billmcelligott, you are not talking to someone who has gotten his information third- or fourth-hand.
OK , niehter have I. I am a Past Master in Craft and Chapter I am UK which means UGLE.

1.) The oath includes several penalties, one of which entails having one's throat cut ear-to-ear for revealing secret information. Whether it is said to be symbolic or no, the threat is included.

Well it does matter if it is symbolic and as I said it refers to oaths taken during the 18th Century, when it was an actual oath as you described. There has never been a recorded incident of this oath being carried out.

2.) Candidates for initiation are required to believe in only ONE god. During the interview process, the candidate is allowed to explain what they consider to be "one" god. Such as the aforementioned Pagan Freemasons who explained that they considered all of their gods and goddesses to be facets of one supreme Deity.
To continue to insist that this questioning does not take place is disingenuous at best, and false at worst.

I can only speak for UK . The question and I have asked it many times is as I have already reported. " Do you believe in a Supreme Being".

Albert Pike had quite a few things to say which you don't quote - about Adonai, about the Bible, about the equality of religions, etc. About how only the vulgar man believes that the Bible is literally true, etc.

Agreed, my point was just as I have done one should not just pull out a few quotes that suite your argument. Pike was a prolific writer and quite often changed his mind and contradicted himself. You are quite right we should not use just a few sentances.

Say what you will; I leave it to good Christian men to pray and search scripture so that falsehoods may not mislead them.

A Falsehood is a contrived thing. I am not saying there is nothing within the Masonic ritual to which an eyebrow could not be raised. But first you should show Masonry to be an alternative doctrine , an opposing force.

We who love the Craft see it as a support sytem to the faith adopted by the individual. It is not our place to force any belief system on anyone.

Plan 9 · Sep 15, 2003

I can only speak for UK . The question and I have asked it many times is as I have already reported. " Do you believe in a Supreme Being".

I'm an American member of OES and I was asked this question. As a Christian, I could honestly answer it in the affirmative, did so, and was not asked to elaborate further regarding my religious beliefs.

geocajun · Sep 15, 2003

billmcelligott said:
Morals and Dogma page 597 For ever, In all the nations, ascending to the remotest antiquity we find, seated above all gods a still higher Deity, silent, undefined, incomprehensible, the Supreme, one God, from Whom all the rest flow or emanate, or by Him are created. Morals and Dogma page 134 Speak kindly to your erring brother! God pities him; Christ has died for him; Providence waits for him; Heavens mercy yearns toward him; and Heavens spirits are ready to welcome him back with joy. Morals and Dogma page 14

Masonry does not pretend to be a religion; but it is not irreligious or irreverent. It does not assume to take the place of any religion, or claim to make religion unnecessary. To charge it with this is to libel it. It requires its initiates to believe in one God and a Divine Providence, and that the soul survives the dissolution of the body. Thus it teaches those great primary truths on which all religion must repose; and it inculcates those principles of pure morality which have commended themselves to the good and wise of all ages."

how about these quotes from Pike?
[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion" (Morals and Dogma, p. 213).

[/font][font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"But Masonry teaches, and has preserved in their purity, the cardinal tenets of the old primitive faith, which underlie and are the foundation of all religions. All that ever existed have had a basis of truth; all have overlaid that truth with error" ([/font][font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Morals and Dogma [/font][font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]p. 161).

[/font][font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Religion, to obtain currency and influence with the great mass of mankind, must needs be alloyed with such an amount of error as to place it far below the standard attainable by the higher human capacities" ([font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Morals and Dogma [/font]p. 224).

"Catholicism was a vital truth in its earliest ages, but it became obsolete, and Protestantism arose, flourished and deteriorated" ([font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Morals and Dogma [/font]p. 38).

[/font][font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]In his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Albert G. Mackey writes:

"I contend, without any sort of hesitation, that Masonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution...that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy of cultivation by the wise and good...Who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?...But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian...It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend a Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelationhanded down to us from some ancient and patriarchal priesthoodin which all men may agree and in which no men can differ. It inculcates the practice of virtue, but supplies no scheme of redemption for sin...Masonry, then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it" (pp. 617-619

[/font]
[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hannah posed the basic dilemma of the Masonic oaths when he wrote: [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Either the oaths mean what they say or they do not. If they do mean what they say, then the candidate is entering into a pact consenting to his own murder by barbarous torture and mutilation should he break it. If they do not mean what they say, then he is swearing high-sounding schoolboy nonsense on the Bible, which verges on blasphemy" (Darkness Visible, p. 21).

[/font]

All of these quotes are from a masterful document written within the Catholic Church regarding Freemasonry and can be read here: http://www.john654.org/bishltr.html

geocajun · Sep 15, 2003

billmcelligott said:
A Falsehood is a contrived thing. I am not saying there is nothing within the Masonic ritual to which an eyebrow could not be raised. But first you should show Masonry to be an alternative doctrine , an opposing force.

It never hurts for a mason to research deism to find out more about the masonic faith system.

We who love the Craft see it as a support sytem to the faith adopted by the individual. It is not our place to force any belief system on anyone.

do you think that is in any way related to the fact as you point out - that they love it?

Woodsy · Sep 16, 2003

Plan 9 said:
I'm an American member of OES and I was asked this question. As a Christian, I could honestly answer it in the affirmative, did so, and was not asked to elaborate further regarding my religious beliefs.

Plan 9, you're a member of the Order of the Eastern Star? Can you tell us why your organization chose as its symbol an inverted pentagram?

billmcelligott · Sep 16, 2003

geocajun said:
how about these quotes from Pike?
[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]I posted the Morals and dogma quotes against the quotes you have listed ( by a previous poster) to create a balance. I have no wish to instruct anyone . But Pike was a prolific writer and often contradicted himself. We therefore see that he as you have indicated did not keep to one line of thought.[/font]
[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]In his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Albert G. Mackey writes:

Who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?...But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian...It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend a Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelationhanded down to us from some ancient and patriarchal priesthoodin which all men may agree and in which no men can differ. It inculcates the practice of virtue, but supplies no scheme of redemption for sin...Masonry, then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it" (pp. 617-619

So we see we can agree or we not differ,
I will accept "Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation "
"but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian".

[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hannah posed the basic dilemma of the Masonic oaths when he wrote: [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Either the oaths mean what they say or they do not. If they do mean what they say, then the candidate is entering into a pact consenting to his own murder by barbarous torture and mutilation should he break it. If they do not mean what they say, then he is swearing high-sounding schoolboy nonsense on the Bible, which verges on blasphemy" (Darkness Visible, p. 21).

Well I can accept the high sounding schoolboy , but not the nonsense. There are anumber of these guys that are quoted again and again. We evolve the Church, Christianity has evolved. People evolve, you can't pin today down by referring back into papers written 100 years ago.

The Catholic Church is nothing like it was between 1650 and 1900. Why should anyone expect Masonry to use the same tired Ideology.
[/font]

Morals and Dogma Published 1871

Hannah published 1952

At least 52 years old. It has merit they both do. Pike published thousands of pages praising Masonry and a few pages with questionable comments. nothing wrong with either but they are not LAW. They are a persons opinion.

All of these quotes are from a masterful document written within the Catholic Church regarding Freemasonry and can be read here: http://www.john654.org/bishltr.html

geocajun · Sep 16, 2003

billmcelligott said:
[font=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?...But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian...It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend a Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelationhanded down to us from some ancient and patriarchal priesthoodin which all men may agree and in which no men can differ. It inculcates the practice of virtue, but supplies no scheme of redemption for sin...Masonry, then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it" (pp. 617-619

So we see we can agree or we not differ,
I will accept "Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation "
"but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian".
[/font]

So you are willing to acknowledge that masonry is a religion in at least the general sense?
If that is the case, then how can a person adhere to two religions?
Be Both Christian and Mason? Especially when one is based on direct revelation (Jesus) and the other is based on subjective image interpretation to teach deism?

billmcelligott · Sep 17, 2003

geocajun said:
So you are willing to acknowledge that masonry is a religion in at least the general sense?
If that is the case, then how can a person adhere to two religions?
Be Both Christian and Mason? Especially when one is based on direct revelation (Jesus) and the other is based on subjective image interpretation to teach deism?

I can accept that the writer observed the relationship between the fundamentals of life and the need to have some structure in both.

"nature and primitive revelation" In nature we do not find deity or sciptures, we do find a simple wonderment for us all to admire. If we stand tall like a tree. Or firm like a Mountain.

There is to me a simple revelation that God can be found in the smallest of all insects as well as the largest of all Mamals.

Does this creat a new religion. It does not for me it strengthens the faith I already have.

Like looking for needles in haystacks , look hard enough for evil and you will find it, all be it so small.
Evil is in the heart not hanging in the hall.

always wanted to be a poet.

geocajun · Sep 17, 2003

well aside from you dodging my question, you do seem to continue to affirm for us that Masonry is teaching about revelation from God and it isn't compatible with direct revelation that we find in Christianity.

Plan 9 · Sep 17, 2003

geocajun said:
well aside from you dodging my question, you do seem to continue to affirm for us that Masonry is teaching about revelation from God and it isn't compatible with direct revelation that we find in Christianity.

Modern science was very much founded by Christians who were excited by the opportunity to learn more about God through his creation, nature. I don't think Bill is dodging in the least.

Woodsy · Sep 17, 2003

The Order of the Eastern Star and the Pentagram: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0302W4.htm

Plan 9 · Sep 17, 2003

Tribe said:
The Order of the Eastern Star and the Pentagram: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0302W4.htm[/QUOTE]

I belong to the Order of the Eastern Star and I don't have to read a link to know the Star's symbolism, all of which is taken from the Bible. Tribre, what is the star seen in the ?East, who followed it and what did they find because they did?

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