Freemasons?

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Wolseley

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Thanx for responding....but 1983 is well & fine,but Im speaking of something more recent say late 90's. Hey Wols are ya out there old wise & knowing DUBBA? Please comtinue w/more discussion on this topic....it seems to be getting good!
Why do you want a late-90's re-iteration of the same teaching? The 1983 Code of Canon Law is still in effect and is still binding on all Catholics. Simply because something is newer doesn't make it better---the Nicene Creed is 1,677 years old. ;)

The document from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, dated November 26, 1983, states thus:

"The Church's negative position on Masonic associations...remains unaltered since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church. Catholics enrolled in Masonic associations are involved in serious sin and may not approach Holy Communion. Local ecclesiastical authorities do not have the faculty to pronounce a judgement on the nature of Masonic associations which might include a diminution of the above-mentioned judgement."

In other words, Catholics are forbidden to join Masonic organizations; if they do they are involved in serious sin and incur a de facto excommunication; and no local priest or bishop can legitimize any Catholic's membership in a Masonic group for any reason.

There you go. You pays yer money and you makes yer choice.
 
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Greeter

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How do you square this Christian witness with your participation in prayer with those who do not hold to the Christian faith?

Well, I guess with this we can close the argument on wether or not there should be prayer in public schools or at public events.

Maybe we should take "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God we trust" off the dollar bill since not all see a Christian God represented in those words.

Any time prayer is offered where there are unbelievers, should we abstain from it?

I guess we can't bring unbelievers with us to Church either as we would violate the edict by the Council of Carthage.

From what I gather from those I shouldn't take up residence in a Muslim country or attend churchs of other faiths but I don't think those stop me from being with people who don't share my faith.  If they do, then how do we evangelize?

Let's take this to its furthest- do not go anywhere where we can not bear Jesus openly or do not go anywhere where Jesus is not welcome.  This would include all public places and especially government buildings.  Should we also not go to, or work for, a business that doesn't allow open prayer to Jesus?

I shouldn't be a member of Freemasonry since they allow people of other faiths to be members.  What about being a citizen of the US?  The US allows people of other faiths to become citizens.
 
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Dear Greeter,

The injunctions I posted were not that we cannot pray if a non-believer is within a certain proximity. It is an injunction against praying intentionally with unbelievers.

Also, there is no connection between what I am saying and the Pledge of Allegiance or what is written on US currency.

And while I would say that bringing unbelievers to Church is misguided, since the Church is the gathering of the saints, if you bring an unbeliever, it is not my intention to pray with them, unless it is for their repentance and salvation.

*Edited for the removal of offensive material*
 
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Greeter

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I'm sorry, but it appears that much of what you brought up falls under the category of a false analogy or strawmen.

Excuse me?

I am not feeling the love. :(

I took your view points seriously and have been reading those verses in detail to make sure I am not in violation of the Word of God.  Around me sit 3 Bibles, a Bible commentary, and a topical Bible to help me with this.

In trying to figure this out I have questions, and when I bring them up you chose to insult me?!?  I am sorry if my skills in debating Christianity aren't up to yours.  As stated in previous threads I have only been saved for about a year and a half now and have never debated anything on the internet before.

I have more questions but looking at your recent response I have to wonder about your intentions.  Are they to teach or win a debate?  Up until now I thought they were to teach, as you had the only valid argument against Freemasonry I have ever seen, but now . . .
 
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Dear Greeter,

My apologies for having offended you. I had interpreted your questions as rhetorical and had thus identified the logical fallacy which I had believed them to have been.

I will withdraw the offending phrase, however, in the interest of continuing civil dialogue with you. Again, I ask for your forgiveness for anything which I may have said, or the manner in which it was said that has offended you.
 
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Thanks!!! As always O' most wise & observant Dubba you is DA MAN! The only reason I asked for something more current is the info I was told was that it was a recent okie dokie by The Vatican,but Im gonna take everyones word that this is bad info. Now I realize Masons have been at odds w.the Church in the past(yet most if not all of our Founding Fathers here in the States were masons,what is the intrinsic evil of this group)?
 
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Jesusong

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If the official Catholic Church's stand is against joining Freemasonry, then what is their position on marrying one who is an active member?

I used to work with a man who was a Mason. We would have arguments & discussions back and forth about Christianity & the lodge. He starteed dating one of the women at where we worked. He and she were both widowed. He eventually asked her to marry him, but she replied that she has to check with her parish priest if its ok because of his involvement with the lodge. He confided with me that he felt that he won't be getting married soon cause even he knew what the Catholic Church's position on Freemasonry was. A couple of days later she came back with her priest's blessing. She said that her priest told her that the Masonic lodge is a wonderful orginization and that the church has no problems with it at all. So they got married in the Catholic Church. This was sometime back in the late eighties/early nineties.

So, was this a fluke, within a particular parish with their own views, or has the Catholic Church's position on marrying a Mason changed?
 
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Wolseley

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I don't know the Church's official position on marriage to a Freemason, but I suspect it would fall under the same injunction as any mixed marriage: the non-Cathoilc party must promise to never interfere with the Catholic party's practice of his/her Faith, and any children born of the union must be raised Catholic.

I can tell you, however, that this is completely erroneous:
A couple of days later she came back with her priest's blessing. She said that her priest told her that the Masonic lodge is a wonderful orginization and that the church has no problems with it at all.
The priest was fully and totally in error here, regarding the Church's views on Freemasonry. However, that's not surprising, considering this:
This was sometime back in the late eighties/early nineties.
I suspect the priest was yet another member of the Pepsi Generation, a left-wing liberal who invented church policy as he went along and felt free ("Join the Pepsi Generation, feelin' free feelin' free!") to accept, reject, or re-arrange whatever came from Rome according to his whim.

Mercifully, most of those guys are in their late 50's now, and due to retire within the next 15 years, with their operational demise rendering hopeful results for the American Church. ;)
 
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Greeter

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Hopefully we can continue this as brothers in Christ . . . (Ironic since the misguided lodge demonstrates brotherly love very well and yet I continue seeing problems on these boards with Christians demonstrating it.)

2 Corinthians 6
14Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

I wrote my previous response just before doing research on this passage.  The author of a favorite Bible Commentary goes indepth to explain this passage and how it directly relates to something like Freemasonry.

Since becoming saved I have not stepped foot inside a Masonic Lodge for I no longer have to "seek the light" as I found all the truth I need in Jesus.  I do have many friends in the Lodge and wanted to return so I read through the Bible and through my commentaries trying to find if there was anything that would bar me from the Lodge and up until now never found anything as most arguments were founded on ignorance.

I agree with you Squalid Wanderer.  The above passage alone is argument for a Christian to stay out of a Masonic Lodge.  When I came back on after realizing this, I was coming on to admit to being wrong and to thank you for your help in the matter.  Maybe now you can see why your words were so devastating.

I do thank you though for helping to set me straight on this.
 
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Dear Greeter,

Again, my apologies for the offense I caused you. I look forward to a new opportunity to repair the damage my insensitivity has caused.

Thank you for responding again.  I had been concerned that my indiscretion had driven you away.  I am grateful to read your words of friendship.
 
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Yes, a Catholic can now be a "mason",,,,,the Vatican has said they will no longer be excommunicated. In fact , we have many in my parish who are in full communion with the church and with Rome.

I did ask my priest about this before I posted, and he said yes it was true.

If anyone would be interested I can find out when the Vatican took this particular stand on the subject.

And , in the real world of "masons",,,,,,and in Ohio and surrounding areas,,,,,,they are not referred to as "free masons", there is a group , that call themselves "free masons",,,,,,,,but they are an entirely different group from the "masons"

 

 
 
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Avila said regarding Freemasonry that "However, in the higher up levels, the theology starts getting really funky." Freemasonry comprises but three degrees or levels: Entered Apprentice (1st), Fellow Craft (2nd), and Master Mason (3rd). The "higher up levels" or "higher degrees" are those conferred by groups (such as Scottish Rite and York Rite) which are appendent bodies and not actual freemasonry.

The relationship of these appendent bodies to Freemasonry is like that of the Knights of Columbus to the Cathoic Church. You must be a member of the Church to become a Knight, but the Knights have no authority or power over the Catholic Church. Likewise, you must be a Master Mason to join a Masonic appendent body, but persons who have received the "higher degrees" via an appendant body have no authority, precedence or rank over any Master Mason. The degree work in those bodies expand on the lessons taught in the first three degrees. If one ends his membership in a Masonic Lodge, his membership in any appendant body also ends.

Freemasory is not a religion, but does have a religious basis. As for a "theology," there is none per se in any Masonic degree other than a firm belief in God. We have ritual, and we teach about our basic tenets--Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth--and the cardinal virtues--Temperance, Prudence, Fortitude, and Justice. We do not teach a way of salvation, although one may infer from our ritual and writings that we espouse a way of living that may lead to salvation (the "good works plus faith" versus "saved by grace alone" argument). Freemasonry provides a means for a Christian--and any other religious person--to put their faith into action. As for whether such good works will lead to salvation is up to that person's religious beliefs.

Freemasonry has no religious requirements other than a candidate and member must believe in the existence of a superintending supreme being. An atheist cannot become a Mason. We instruct that a Mason should be regular in his house of worship, whatever and wherever it may be. For us, one's religious beliefs are a personal decision; no man, entity, or state has the right to tell a person what he or she must believe. In fact, discussing religion within a Lodge is expressly forbidden because of the discension it can cause.

In a Masonic Lodge, a volume of sacred law (VSL) must be opened on an altar in the center of the Lodge room when the meeting is started and closed when the meeting is closed. In predominantly Christion countries, the VSL is the Holy Bible. Masonic ritual is based on the Bible.

Some of the Christians who are against us say that we "deny" Jesus because we do not recognize him in Lodge ritual or prayer (i.e., we do not say "In Christ's name" or similar at the end of a prayer). We do not deny Jesus any more than we deny any other religion, prophet, or messenger of God. Freemasonry does not favor one religion over another. Thus the use of "Heavenly Father," "Supreme Architect of the Universe" (coined by Rev John Calvin) and so on in our prayers. This allows each member to pray to God as he knows him to be.

The York Rite of Freemasonry is based on Christian principles, with the top degree being that of Knight Templar, commerating the Knights Templar that fought for and protected the Holy Land during the Crusades.

The Rose Croix (Rose and Cross) degree in the Scottish Rite relates to Christ's crucifixion. There are services on Maundy Thursday, and on Good Friday the lights in a Scottish Rite Lodge are extinguished in commeration of Christ's passion and death. On Easter Sunday the lights are relight during a ritual to commerate Christ's arising.

I have been a Master Mason for over 19 years, am a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason, and am Master of a Lodge. No where in any of the degree work or ritual have I seen or heard anything that contradicts Christ's teachings.
 
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Dear Wanderer,

Yes, I would. I've skimmed through some of the past postings and am disappointed at the amount of misinformation I saw, much of it being what I've seen at various anti-Masonic Web sites and in anti-Masonic literature. I hope that I can provide a better understandng of what Freemasonry is and who we Masons are. It may take me a while to post replies to the material I think should be engaged.

"Meet in the Level, Act by the Plumb, Part upon the Square"
 
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Dear Frederick,

I appreciate your disappointment concerning any misinformation that has been propagated in this discussion. Would you agree though that perhaps this is in part from the semi-secretive nature of Masonry?

Regardless, I am in no hurry, please take your time and respond when you feel comfortable.
 
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cenimo

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The books written about Freemasonry that are writen by former Masons are quite an expose. If you can find one by Ed decker that is all the information you will ever need to know about the masons.

In the long run the end goal of masonry is lucifer worship, but most masons don't find that out until the higher levels. By that time, most of too much time and money "invested" in it to just walk away. I've read volumes about this and am convinced that you cannot be a mason and a Christian.

 

Christian - follower of Christ. The masons omit saying Jesus in any of their prayers because the use of Jesus' name  (even as posted by frandall previously) may "offend" any non-Christian present. Perhaps these are the folks who brought on political correctness. Not allowing the use of Jesus in prayer tells me all I need to know.
 
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EliasEmmanuel

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Originally posted by cenimo
The books written about Freemasonry that are riten by former Masons are quite an expose. If you can find one by Ed decker that is all the information you will ever need to know about the masons.

In the long run the end goal of masonry is lucofer worship, but most masons don't fond that out until the highr levels. By that time, most of too much time and money "invested" in it to just walk away. I've read volumes about this and am convinced that you cannot be a mason and a Christian.

There are a lot of books out there that are, in my estimation, filled with alarmist half truths and outright fabrications. For example, Jack Chick and Bill Schnoleben seem to know as much about masonry as they do about any other group, or religion for that matter...

I will say this: my stepfather was Master of the Lodge here a few years ago, and is still very involved. I've helped him out with a lot of maintenence and so forth in the lodge, I've seen every room in the place (and underneath it actually... LOL) and I've been privy to a LOT of stuff. Do I think Masonic theology is a little wonky? Yes. As much as every Mason I've known has been a professing Christian, the letter of the Masonic law seems to have some universalist and/or deist underpinnings. They certainly borrowed a lot in terms of props and pomp and circumstance from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. But all this talk about "Lucifer worship" in the higher levels is so much paranoid conspiracy theory bunk. I can't necessarily say that Masons have never done anything unscrupulous, but they're not some far-reaching dark underground. Heck, what they amount to in my mind is a Frat for old men. I'll never join, mind, but this is one of those cases where truth is far less interesting than fiction.....

Christian - follower of Christ. The masons omit saying Jesus in any of their prayers because the use of Jesus' name  (even as posted by frandall previously) may "offend" any non-Christian present. Perhaps these are the folks who brought on political correctness. Not allowing the use of Jesus in prayer tells me all I need to know.

LOL, not hardly.... for years the Masons were the epitome of class discrimination, and for most of the Lodge's history you couldn't join if you were black....

-Elias
 
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