Freemasonry

Albion · Apr 9, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
Yes. I gave the link and said the same.
Thank you.

Because you couldn't back up your strange claim that the Washington Monument "features" "pagan deities." Not only is the monument not a Masonic building, but neither does it feature pagan deities.

Rev Randy · Apr 9, 2013

Masonic threads never end well. Most things said do come from conspiracy sites
So I pay them little heed. While those of secret societies are not permitted by most mainstream denoms to be leaders I think the point made is basically mute.
From the Masons I personally know, I don't see most of the objections as true. I do know the masons prefer to hire other Masons but that's mainly because they know them.
What I see in freemasonry is much like what I see in the boy scouts, the Elks or the moose clubs. Just a club of guys trying to have fun while taking on some charity work while they do it. The secret part has not done them any favors as people will make up things about things they don't understand.
What it was and what it is today are two separate things. There was a time in my lifetime when you couldn't be a state police officer in Florida without being a Mason. That it not true today.
Getting info from disgruntaled ex-members most likely isn't getting info from a good source. Kinda like asking a man about his ex-wife then taking every word from the truth.
That said, I would never join a secret club. But to each his own.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 9, 2013

Rev Randy said:
What it was and what it is today are two separate things.
Getting info from disgruntaled ex-members most likely isn't getting info from a good source.

So a born again in Christ believer who has been delivered from demons and from freemasonry who professes total deliverance from Satan and his hold on them because Jesus has given them a brand new life, by adopting them as a son, and has joined them to His One Living Spirit is not a credible witness to what they know and knew while they served the darkness of Freemasonry?

I do not think that is wisdom in reasoning because what they can tell is what they knew in Freemasonry and what was taught them and how they practiced the rituals of freemasonry: to discredit their testimony because they are now born again and released from darkness is somehow -well- not logical, and not reasonable.

But you do have the many writings of Freemasons, themselves, which writings can be got at public libraries, that do tell everything that is supposed to be secret.

And you do have the witness of the temples which are dedicated to pagan deities who adorn the temples' architecture, not the least of which is the Temple/Mosque of the Shriners in Springfield Missouri which I pasted the pictures of, and which declare on the two domes, in Arabic: "There is no god but allah".

You just cannot escape that truth of what it is, by what it says and what it exhibits, which backs up what is said in the books that they do when they become Shriners, which is to take an oath on the Koran, and declare allah to be the god of their fathers.
That is blasphemy, and it brings the curse of God on the participants.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 9, 2013

Albion said:
Because you couldn't back up your strange claim that the Washington Monument "features" "pagan deities." Not only is the monument not a Masonic building, but neither does it feature pagan deities.

That was already pasted for you to view by Last Seven, which started you denying that it had anything to do with Masonry...yada yada yada...

LastSeven · Apr 9, 2013

Albion said:
We're still waiting for your pictures of all those "pagan deities" that you imagine are adorning the Washington Monument.

Albion, didn't you see the picture I posted of the elevator inside the Washington Monument? I already showed you the symbol of Thoth adorned with the two snakes.

Here it is again.

Not only is the pagan god Thoth honoured inside the monument, but the monument, being an obelisk configured to match historic Egyptian ratios of the width being exactly 1/10th of its height, itself honours Osiris and Isis, the Egyptian god and goddess.

The chosen height even being 555 ft when added to the width and depth of 55.5 feet each, equals 666 ft, a number associated with Satanism.

The year of its construction honours the 72 fallen angels, having been started exactly 72 years after independence.

Even its location, being aligned with the white house and the Capitol dome is important for Egyptian ceremony.

The design, the size, the location and even the timing of the monument honours pagan gods, and to say that it does not is simply disingenuous.

Rev Randy · Apr 9, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
So a born again in Christ believer who has been delivered from demons and from freemasonry who professes total deliverance from Satan and his hold on them because Jesus has given them a brand new life, by adopting them as a son, and has joined them to His One Living Spirit is not a credible witness to what they know and knew while they served the darkness of Freemasonry?

I do not think that is wisdom in reasoning because what they can tell is what they knew in Freemasonry and what was taught them and how they practiced the rituals of freemasonry: to discredit their testimony because they are now born again and released from darkness is somehow -well- not logical, and not reasonable.

But you do have the many writings of Freemasons, themselves, which writings can be got at public libraries, that do tell everything that is supposed to be secret.

And you do have the witness of the temples which are dedicated to pagan deities who adorn the temples' architecture, not the least of which is the Temple/Mosque of the Shriners in Springfield Missouri which I pasted the pictures of, and which declare on the two domes, in Arabic: "There is no god but allah".

You just cannot escape that truth of what it is, by what it says and what it exhibits, which backs up what is said in the books that they do when they become Shriners, which is to take an oath on the Koran, and declare allah to be the god of their fathers.
That is blasphemy, and it brings the curse of God on the participants.

As I have spent zero time in a Masonic meeting I have no idea of what is done within except from Masons who profess Christ.
Are they ritualistic? Sure. Just like any club kids start. Are they worshipping false Gods? I truly doubt that from the Masons I've met. They've become very open about the secret parts lately. So, are those in the Lions Club , Elks club, Moose lodge also satanic? The have secrets also.
I admit to being uncomfortable with the muslim garb worn by the Shriners but from what I've seen of Shriners, it's more a group to belt down a few shots with friends and ride goofy little carts than anything else.
I'm not pro masonry by a long shot. The things most Masons seek from Masonry can be found within the Church. But I don't believe it's the evil thing most posting seem to think it is. Some titles seem odd (Worshipful Master and Worthy Matron)but even those depend on how one interprets them.
wor·ship·ful
/ˈwərSHipfəl/
Adjective
1.Feeling or showing reverence and adoration.
2.Entitled to honor or respect.
Now if you want to get on a group, try the Baha'i. That's a religion.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

That's a religion.

So you make judgements based on face value.
Tell us now how what Last Seven just posted about the Washington monument isn't indulging pagan symbols in monumentelizing what is supposed to be a Christian Nation.
Or is Thoth the god the Declaration of Independance refers to?

LastSeven · Apr 9, 2013

Rev Randy, I think you're talking primarily about those Masons who don't see the evil within their own fraternity. They are not Satan worshippers and they don't honour pagan gods, and in general they mean well.

However, don't you think the architecture and history of freemasonry tells a different story? Isn't it likely that the roots of freemasonry are evil, and that the vast majority of masons are simply not seeing it?

Albion · Apr 9, 2013

LastSeven said:
Albion, didn't you see the picture I posted of the elevator inside the Washington Monument? I already showed you the symbol of Thoth adorned with the two snakes.

It's over 500 feet high and you have one unlabeled marker to call to our attention. It's not exactly festoonned with pagan deities, now is it? But if you want to say that the United States is dedicated to the god Thoth, well, go ahead. And of course there's your own theory about the number 72. Creative.

Rev Randy · Apr 9, 2013

LastSeven said:
Rev Randy, I think you're talking primarily about those Masons who don't see the evil within their own fraternity. They are not Satan worshippers and they don't honour pagan gods, and in general they mean well.

However, don't you think the architecture and history of freemasonry tells a different story? Isn't it likely that the roots of freemasonry are evil, and that the vast majority of masons are simply not seeing it?

I truly believe Masonry is what one makes of it. I am firmly against it for the Christian. If a Christians desires to fellowship, they have that within the Church. If the Christian desires to do good works cooperatively, that can be done through the Church. Now if one desires a social club, Masonry may be the ticket as the Church is no social club.

I would think that Christians who are Masons would be bringing the light of Christ into that group. Not the other way round.

Albion · Apr 9, 2013

Rev Randy said:
I truly believe Masonry is what one makes of it. I am firmly against it for the Christian. If a Christians desires to fellowship, they have that within the Church. If the Christian desires to do good works cooperatively, that can be done through the Church. Now if one desires a social club, Masonry may be the ticket as the Church is no social club.

I would think that Christians who are Masons would be bringing the light of Christ into that group. Not the other way round.

People who admit to having no personal experience with Masonry and, therefore, no knowledge of what goes on there, would do well not to go out on a limb with guesswork. I have seen so much nonsense and lies about Masonry that it almost makes one WANT to join such an organization in the belief that, if this is what it is accused of without reason or facts, it must be doing good. And the idea that no Christian should belong to ANY organization except the church sure rings hollow when it's posted by a member of an online discussion club!

LastSeven · Apr 9, 2013

o.k. then let me ask you simply this. What's the point of freemasonry generally speaking?

And more specifically what's the point of the degrees? What's the point of referencing hiram abiff, or king solomon's temple. What's the point of swearing to secrecy? What's the point of all the symbolism?

If none of it has any meaning, what is it all for?

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

quote=Albion;People who admit to having no personal experience with Masonry and, therefore, no knowledge of what goes on there, would do well not to go out on a limb with guesswork.

What should we not guess about the use of Egyptian religious symbols? That it means anything except 'let's do some charity work & share a bucket of beer'?

I have seen so much nonsense and lies about Masonry that it almost makes one WANT to join such an organization in the belief that, if this is what it is accused of without reason or facts, it must be doing good.

Then you would have to endure the endless mind-numbing rituals & at least pretend to believe the nonsense & lies the leadership of that organization feeds to its members as facts & reason.

And the idea that no Christian should belong to ANY organization except the church sure rings hollow when it's posted by a member of an online discussion club!

The on-line club won't get you a job or any of the goodies a hundreds year old off-line club that includes elite world leaders.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

LastSeven said:
o.k. then let me ask you simply this. What's the point of freemasonry generally speaking?

And more specifically what's the point of the degrees? What's the point of referencing hiram abiff, or king solomon's temple. What's the point of swearing to secrecy? What's the point of all the symbolism?

If none of it has any meaning, what is it all for?

Ask an ostrich what fresh air & sunshine mean & he'll point to a pile of sand & ask you why you aren't hiding from it like "everybody" else..

Albion · Apr 9, 2013

LastSeven said:
o.k. then let me ask you simply this. What's the point of freemasonry generally speaking?

To have men of good moral character set goals for themselves towards developing their intellectual and ethical lives. Of course, there are additional benefits, such as fellowship and civic involvment.

And more specifically what's the point of the degrees?

They're just different instructional seminars.

What's the point of referencing hiram abiff, or king solomon's temple.

They symbolize many heroic qualities.

What's the point of swearing to secrecy?

Look at the lies that are told by the uninformed! However, there's hardly anything that actually is secret...much less than in many churches or other fraternal organizations that are seldom villified, for example. Passwords and handshakes that identify a member when visiting another lodge, mainly. And as for "secrecy," everyone knows where the Masonic Center is, when meetings are held, how to get in touch, and you can even tour most of the facilities. How "secret" is this, when you get right down to it? Masonry is, in point of fact, a lot less secret than the local Country Club.

What's the point of all the symbolism?

We all comprehend values and ideas through visual stimuli. The Christian cross or crucifix, for example, brings home to one the sacrifice and suffering Our Lord endured for us much more than simply saying that he died for us. At least, I'd hope you'd agree that we all are affected by the sight of the flag, the ceremonies involved with a funeral, or a graduation with cap and gown, etc. All of these employ symbols which stir our feelings and deliver important messages.

LastSeven · Apr 9, 2013

And what messages do ancient Egyptian symbols send?

Albion · Apr 9, 2013

LastSeven said:
And what messages do ancient Egyptian symbols send?

I have seen rooms in Masonic Centers that are done in an Egyptian motif, and others done to look like Williamsburg, a Medieval castle, a monastery, a scene from the Bible, a military setting, and more. Obviously, there is no special fascination with ancient Egypt, but ARCHITECTURE.

BUILDING is what Stonemasons do, don't you know?? It's architecture, not "pagan deities," you're looking at! BUILDINGS designed by generations of geniuses using decorative arts, craftsmanship, geometry, engineering, etc. That's where Freemasonry is believed to have come from--the guilds of Medieval craftsmen who were renowned for their dedication, brotherhood, and skill.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

Albion said:
I have seen rooms in Masonic Centers that are done in an Egyptian motif, and others done to look like Williamsburg, a Medieval castle, a monastery, a scene from the Bible, a military setting, and more. Obviously, there is no special fascination with ancient Egypt, but ARCHITECTURE.

BUILDING is what Stonemasons do, don't you know?? It's architecture, not "pagan deities," you're looking at! BUILDINGS designed by generations of geniuses using decorative arts, craftsmanship, geometry, engineering, etc. That's where Freemasonry is believed to have come from--the guilds of Medieval craftsmen who were renowned for their dedication, brotherhood, and skill.

I can't say I have never seen such self-serving denial before.

Stonemasons don't make up religious symbols or spontaneously put them into architecture simply for the sake of crafting stone.
"The craft" obviously is just a symbol of the organizations purpose - the building of society; specificaly the Novo Ordo Seculorum.

Albion · Apr 9, 2013

Rick Otto said:
I can't say I have never seen such self-serving denial before.

That's clever. If I do the very best job I can in order to answer what I'm asked, it's called self-serving. But if I didn't answer as specifically as I've tried...why then, I'd have something to hide, I suppose. The Conspiracy Club can't lose!

Stonemasons don't make up religious symbols or spontaneously put them into architecture simply for the sake of crafting stone.

Of course not. Did you miss all that I said about intellectual development, moral or ethical considerations? The Middle Ages was deeply religious, so OF COURSE the cathedral builders used religious symbolism. What a revelation that must be to you.

That, however, was not what I was asked to answer. And if you are thinking in particular about the infamous Egyptian imagery, how would you suggest replicating an ancient Egyptian ediface WITHOUT any of the images that are stock in trade with these structures? Sheesh.

"The craft" obviously is just a symbol of the organizations purpose - the building of society; specificaly the Novo Ordo Seculorum.

Good grief. Get the aluminum hats out, boys. The lizard people are taking over the banking system--all in the name of the Shriners, of course.

LastSeven · Apr 9, 2013

Interesting.

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