Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity?

Bah-Bah Black Sheep · Jan 18, 2005

I am not a Christian, and I have a little history with Freemasonry {knowing several people involved with it}, so perhaps I can shed a little new light on this matter:

Freemasonry itself is not occultc whatsoever. Most of the nation's Founding Fathers, including Washington {all of whom, while Christian, weren't Christian like most modern Fundamentalists} belonged to this group.

They aren't a part of a vast, evil conspracy to destroy the Chruch; as some {*cough*Jack Chick*cough*} believe. Yes, they have their secrets {which I can't reveal}, but they're more like a bunch of drunks getting together to play poker than a bunch of guys in black cloaks summoning horned demons or anything.

Ave Maria · Jan 18, 2005

Bah-Bah Black Sheep said:
I am not a Christian, and I have a little history with Freemasonry {knowing several people involved with it}, so perhaps I can shed a little new light on this matter:

Freemasonry itself is not occultc whatsoever. Most of the nation's Founding Fathers, including Washington {all of whom, while Christian, weren't Christian like most modern Fundamentalists} belonged to this group.

They aren't a part of a vast, evil conspracy to destroy the Chruch; as some {*cough*Jack Chick*cough*} believe. Yes, they have their secrets {which I can't reveal}, but they're more like a bunch of drunks getting together to play poker than a bunch of guys in black cloaks summoning horned demons or anything.

Personally, I never thought they were evil. I just thought that they might be incompatible with Christianity for some reason. I have heard accusations that they are Occultic though. Thanks for the info!

Crazy Liz · Jan 18, 2005

costlygrace said:
Most of this is actually not known by most practicing freemasons. Why? Because of deceit, and also because those who enter the inner circle of Freemasonry are killed if they tell.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free001a.htm
Freemason author Albert Pike said in his book on Freemason morals and dogma: "Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it."

Why would you believe what self-confessed liars tell you about other self-confessed liars?

As I see it, that is the incompatibility right there. What business does a Christian have taking blood oaths to protect any kind of secrets at all, and especially secrets the nature of which is so uncertain?

Why does the secret have to be satanic or scandalous or other wise sinister?

If someone could give a good reason in favor of becoming a Mason, then that reason could be compared against the general principle that it is unwise to take oaths without understanding in advance exactly what it will entail. But so far, I haven't seen any good reason to put up against this general rule.

This seems like a pretty simple no-brainer, so long as no one proposes a good reason for a Christian to become a Mason. They do not have to be proven evil. They simply require, for no apparently good, just and loving reason, an act that goes against Christian moral wisdom.

However, Christians also don't go around spreading malicious gossip based on lies and speculation.

It's too bad the basic, simple, really good reason Christians should not become Masons is so plain and simple and not exciting and scandalous.

John16:2 · Jan 18, 2005

seebs said:
Slavery was nearly universally accepted from the year zero until the 1800s. To this day, there still exist some Christians who accept slavery. It's a majority position.

If you'd prefer, I could just assert that, in 1900, it was true; you don't have to go back very far to get up to about 99%.

Sure.

But then, most people never make it to 33rd, so even if the 33rd degree is somehow incompatible with Christianity, we have no reason to believe others are.

The problem is that the world is full of people who claim to be ex-masons, and who make all sorts of contradictory claims. I tend to be pretty skeptical of ex-masons, ex-satanists, ex-pagans, et al.; most of them are not reliable sources.

While I share your concerns about his choice of approval-boosters, I don't see how this is a barrier to heaven. If we had to avoid screwing up to go to heaven, none of us would make it.

As to the rest... I don't particularly hold with conspiracy theories.

"And the Lord said unto him//set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said//Go ye after him through the city and smite: let not your eye spare and neither have ye pity"-Ezekiel 9:4-5. You flunked that test!

Bah-Bah Black Sheep · Jan 18, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
Why would you believe what self-confessed liars tell you about other self-confessed liars?

As I see it, that is the incompatibility right there. What business does a Christian have taking blood oaths to protect any kind of secrets at all, and especially secrets the nature of which is so uncertain?

Why does the reason have to be satanic or scandalous or other wise sinister?

If someone could give a good reason in favor of becoming a Mason, then that reason could be compared against the general principle that it is unwise to take oaths without understanding in advance exactly what it will entail. But so far, I haven't seen any good reason to put up against this general rule.

This seems like a pretty simple no-brainer, so long as no one proposes a good reason for a Christian to become a Mason. They do not have to be proven evil. They simply require, for no apparently good, just and loving reason, an act that goes against Christian moral wisdom.

However, Christians also don't go around spreading malicious gossip based on lies and speculation.

It's too bad the basic, simple, really good reason Christians should not become Masons is so plain and simple and not exciting and scandalous.

That I can't help you with, as I'm neither Christian nor a Mason.

However, the secrets they are keeping aren't exactly deep, dark secrets. It mostly has to do with ex-members {ala many of the Founding Fathers}, and the exact story behind what they believe was the founding of their group {the masons that worked on Solomon's temple}.

The only real "occultic" thing about them is that they named YHWH the "Grand Architect", but their faith is no different than your average Joe Christian.

Jack Chick promoted the idea that they worship a Satanic demon named "Baphomet"-- which is hillariously absurd, as, being a Satanist {and thus I'd know about it}, a "baphomet" is simply a Goat of Mendes in a pentacle; and is simply an emblem, not a "demon" or anything of that nature. Likewise, I know for a fact that Mason's don't use it for anything; as I've had two of my Masonic friends ask me just what exaclty the baphomet I used to wear was.

DrFate · Jan 18, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
Why would you believe what self-confessed liars tell you about other self-confessed liars?

Why listen to a self-confessed liar about anything?

Crazy Liz said:
As I see it, that is the incompatibility right there. What business does a Christian have taking blood oaths to protect any kind of secrets at all, and especially secrets the nature of which is so uncertain?

The oaths are metaphorical.

Crazy Liz said:
Why does the reason have to be satanic or scandalous or other wise sinister?

I does not have to be.

I

Crazy Liz said:
f someone could give a good reason in favor of becoming a Mason, then that reason could be compared against the general principle ...

1) In most places in the USA it is a fraternity of various Christian me n doing good work and networking with each other.
2) The ritual memorization is designed to inculcate positive moral values.
3) It frightens neopagans knownothings.
4) You will have instant friends whereever you go. And these friends can be relied on to be fair with you or face Masonic dicipline.
5) It is a place where class distinctions are leveled. So it builds a stronger society.
6) It provides a safety net for widows and orphans.

Crazy Liz said:
...that it is unwise to take oaths without understanding in advance exactly what it will entail. But so far, I haven't seen any good reason to put up against this general rule.

The oaths are available at your local liberary and can be examined before you take them. You can even get them on the internet, at least the ones from Nevada. In general the Inet version is close enough to others though there are some minor differences from the california oaths.

Crazy Liz said:
This seems like a pretty simple no-brainer, so long as no one proposes a good reason for a Christian to become a Mason. They do not have to be proven evil. They simply require, for no apparently good, just and loving reason, an act that goes against Christian moral wisdom.

What act is that, praying to the Christian God next to a Jew who is praying to the Hebrew God? I am uncomfortable with lodges that contain thelemites and do not go to those lodges.

Crazy Liz said:
However, Christians also don't go around spreading malicious gossip based on lies and speculation.

OH YES THEY DO, EVEN ABOUT MEMBERS OF THEIR CHURCH.

Crazy Liz said:
It's too bad the basic, simple, really good reason Christians should not become Masons is so plain and simple and not exciting and scandalous.

Why should they not become Masons? Prehaps because they will not be under control of some Strongman or Witchdoctor?

DrFate · Jan 18, 2005

The secrecy may no longer be necessary in Europe. Being a Freemason was a Death sentence in France for example.

DrFate · Jan 18, 2005

John, have you been a 33d degree Freemason? If not then how do you justify your assertions about the motives of other men? The scuba diving in Rylth is great this time of year.

DrFate · Jan 18, 2005

Baphomet is a variation on Mohamed. John 2:16 can tell you how demon possesed Mohamed was.
Jack Chick and his anti-semetic tracts are designed to make Jack Chick money.

DrFate · Jan 18, 2005

John I really enjoy your posts. I hope they do not throw you off the BBS. Please use line breaks in your postings as they make your postings easier to read.

BTW Ally Crowley was not a Freemason as far as I remember.

seebs · Jan 18, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
It's too bad the basic, simple, really good reason Christians should not become Masons is so plain and simple and not exciting and scandalous.

Indeed.

But, that said... Not everyone has always been Christian, or kept particularly closely to that calling. I don't see any reason why someone could not keep such an oath even after converting, and I have yet to see any convincing evidence that the practices are incompatible with Christianity, except for the obvious clash with the oath. But... If for some reason you'd already taken it, well, I don't see the problem. There could be one, but I haven't seen it.

Crazy Liz · Jan 18, 2005

seebs said:
Indeed.

But, that said... Not everyone has always been Christian, or kept particularly closely to that calling.

True. While my rationale would counsel Christians against becoming Masons, it does not advise Masons what to do if/when they become Christians or decide to become more serious about their Christian faith.

That is a good distinction to make, as the OP asked whether Christianity and Freemasonry are incompatible. The rationale I posted does not answer the question on the level of absolute compatibility, but on the level of the ethical wisdom of the Christian faith.

I don't see any reason why someone could not keep such an oath even after converting, and I have yet to see any convincing evidence that the practices are incompatible with Christianity, except for the obvious clash with the oath. But... If for some reason you'd already taken it, well, I don't see the problem. There could be one, but I haven't seen it.

I agree. A serious Christian who is a Freemason would be better able to answer this question. Also, he might be in a better position than you or I to decide whether to keep the oaths he has already taken, but perhaps not take any more. For example, the mythology seems to indicate that at some point (the infamous 33d level?) the nature of the oaths and/or secrets may change. Therefore, a Christian Mason might well evaluate the ethical wisdom of further advancement in Freemasonry.

But as a non-Mason, I would not be prepared to make a judgment about whether a Mason who becomes a Christian must resign.

Texas Lynn · Jan 19, 2005

costlygrace said:
I will have to find an online source to back this up, but many Freemasons teach that there are four gods. One is the Creator, Yahweh, and the other is Lucifer (I don't remember the others). To begin with people are taught that Yahweh is good and Lucifer is bad, but if they are considered trustworthy with Masonic secrets they are taught that the "real truth" is that Lucifer is good and Yahweh is bad!!!

The problem with that assertion is freemasonry does not per se teach any specific thing about cosmology and the like. Yes, some freemasons adhere to a mystical or gnostic view, but there is freedom of conscience and no mason is directed to believe such by his masonic brothers. This is confusing to some fundamentalists who assume, since they themselves are often told what to believe by their peers, that masonry is the same, but it is not.

This is quoted from an article I decided not to cite, because it is too graphic in decribing the Satanic nature of Freemasonry:

Respected Freemason author Albert Pike says of Satan:
"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!"

Which is kind of like a criminal defendant saying, "I have an alibi i did not commit the murder but I will not cite the witness to my alibi for my own reasons." IOW the argument falls flat. Pike is difficult to read, but in his work he spoke only for himself. Objective scholars have determined it is likely such as the above is metaphor.

This reveals what it means when new freemasons are encouraged to "seek the Light"!!! Nothing like what Christians would mean!

In Christianity, "light" is Christ; in masonry, it is a metaphor for knowledge. Apples and oranges.

The cover of Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma" has the Latin inscription: " 'DEUS MEUMQUE JUS'. The literal meaning is 'God and My Right'...Doc Marquis says this statement is a very typical one within Satanism. It has two meanings, one within the other. First, this phrase means that the Freemason can depend upon their God to determine their Right and Justice. Secondly, since the God of Freemasonry is Lucifer, Masons are saying that they are "using occult methods", through Lucifer, to achieve their Rights and Justice. Marquis says that this phrase is very powerful and very dangerous within Satanism. The second a Satanist sees this phrase in Latin on Pike's book, he knows the material within is Satanism, without reading a word!"

This "Doc Marquis" sounds like a garden variety anti-mason, jumping to conclusions like an athlete jumps hurdles.

Most of this is actually not known by most practicing freemasons. Why? Because of deceit, and also because those who enter the inner circle of Freemasonry are killed if they tell.

And just where is the forensic evidence of the murders of said rouge freemasons? While there was outrage in 1825 at the alleged murder (no body was found) of a rouge mason named Captain Morgan in Upstate New York, one would think one murder or disappearance 180 years ago is hardly evidence of a pattern.

Texas Lynn · Jan 19, 2005

ahab said:
I am sorry you are so offended by a counter opinion.

Not at all; just the evidence is extremely underwhelming.

personally I believe freemasonry is satanic, and I am not ashamed.

You should be. Of course, people who believe all about Bigfoot and Bat Boy as featured in The Weekly World News are not ashamed either.

ahab · Jan 19, 2005

Freemasonry isn't compatible with being a Christian for several reasons, for example even the first commandment. The violation occurs I quote from O.F.F. This pattern of violating the First Commandment occurs each time they gather around a common altar and stand in agreement of prayer to pagan deities with unbelievers of whom they call brothers while petitioning the "true Supreme Being" -- the God of the Bible -- at the same time. What do they pray for? In the context of the following Masonic Prayer notice that:

1. One deity is petitioned

2. By one person

3. On behalf of all Masons assembled in the lodge (believers and nonbelievers, Christians and non-Christians alike)

4. God is described, and prayer is for sanctification of the candidate by the principles of Freemasonry

Deception plain and simple.

Texas Lynn · Jan 19, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
it is unwise to take oaths without understanding in advance exactly what it will entail.

By that logic masonry is incompatible with Christianity to the exact same extent that being a manufacturer, a lawyer, or a social worker is; and it would follow that Christians who emigrate to the U.S. should not take an oath of citizenship. The Masonic oaths are completely limited to a pledge to ethical conduct and the group's traditions, entirely symbolic in nature. By the reasoning suggested also one should never shake hands on a business deal. "Exactly what it entails" is explained ad infinitum to the candidate prior to the initiation.

Crazy Liz · Jan 19, 2005

Texas Lynn said:
By that logic masonry is incompatible with Christianity to the exact same extent that being a manufacturer, a lawyer, or a social worker is;

Hi Lynn! Long time no see.

I'm not sure whether these occupations require oaths. I know that in the US an oath is not required to practice any profession. A person who has a conscientious objection to taking oaths (based on Jesus' teaching) is allowed an alternate declaration, affirmation or other form of promise. For example, new lawyers are "sworn in" when they are admitted to the Bar, but no oath invoking any deity is required. If the form being used at a public ceremony is objectionable, the new lawyer may use an alternative form to take on the required obligations.

As far as that goes, many of the same Christians who object to oaths, such as Anabaptists and Quakers, have other reasons for not becoming lawyers. Anabaptists who teach Christian nonresistance often refuse to participate in the state's exercise of its coercive power.

and it would follow that Christians who emigrate to the U.S. should not take an oath of citizenship.

Some Christians would object to taking this sort of oath because our citizenship is in heaven, and we relate to earthly political systems as pilgrims and strangers. I'm not saying most Christians would go that far, but I do think loyalty oaths are highly objectionable to Christians. So as the requirements for such offices have changed from time to time and place to place, each must be examined on its own merits.

The Masonic oaths are completely limited to a pledge to ethical conduct and the group's traditions, entirely symbolic in nature.

I thought they had to do with not revealing secrets. Is this entirely untrue?

ahab · Jan 19, 2005

Hello?

One deity is petitioned and yet on behalf of those who don't have the same revelation and understanding of God. By one person who has just one understanding of God (but it wouldnt be through the Holy Spirit or they would be reminded of what Jesus says that He is the way the turth and the life and no-one comes to the Father except through Jesus).On behalf of all Masons assembled in the lodge (believers and nonbelievers, Christians and non-Christians alike) and God is described though not through Jesus and prayer is for sanctification of the candidate by the principles of Freemasonry not through the sanctification in Christ Jesus.
Its satanic.

fejao · Jan 19, 2005

Many people here are speaking about the oaths within the freemasonary order, however I think if you look at some of the oaths you will in fact see they are not oaths but curses. The deceptive nature of Freemasonry begins with induction and membership in the lodge. In that ceremony the initiate is bare-chested and blindfolded with a noose around his neck. He is then taken outside the lodge, they knock on the door and a person inside asks the initiate what he wants? He then answers by saying, I want to come out of the darkness and enter into the light of freemasonry. The initiate is then brought into the lodge still blindfolded and a dagger or sword or other sharp object is placed against his bare chest. He then swears the first of many blood oaths and curses over himself and his family. He agrees to be murdered or mutilated if the oath of the degree is violated.

gmbray · Jan 19, 2005

Anyone who has claimed here that Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity is a heretic and much too liberal a Christian. While in fact many "christians" may be members of Freemasonry, that does not make it Jesus approved. During the initiation rites of a new mason, he is asked what he seeks (being that the whole ceremony is scripted he knows what to say) and replies that he seeks light or the light. I would propose, that with the oaths and rites that continue as you move up the scale, into more satanic occult practices, that indeed when an initiate follows the script and asks the "the light" he is indeed asking for Satan, or Lucifer. Lucifer means morning star, or bearer of light. Case mostly closed. Please message me if you disagree or have a point to offer against my argument.

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