Freedom, liberty, and mechanism

[Xeno.of.athens]

Some have a theology in which human decisions while appearing to be free are in fact predetermined and predestined in every minute detail. Every atom and sub-atomic particle is said to be disposed according to God's eternal plan, sometimes called God's eternal decree. Thus all human freedom is curtailed by the decree and will proceed only within the absolutely predetermined course of God's plan. And so, you do not actually act as a free moral agent but as a moral agent acting according to the predetermined plan and purposes of God. Your decisions are not freely made but are in fact made according to the plan and only seem to be free because the details of the plan are not known to you and thus you live under the illusion of doing as you please because you please to do it.

Do you think that is how God works in this world of ours?

 

[Unqualified]

We are out of Gods will when we sin. To bring back an old argument. Destruction of the planet is not Gods will. No plan that involves humans is perfect. God is not that controlling. He proves it by giving us free will. He sent his son to make up for mans failures- plan B. We can’t be perfect we shouldn’t even try. God is even more intricate than you think. God does not force His plan on us, he doesn’t force anything on us. Least ways the gospel, we are not robots. I can’t leave God but that is just me; millions can. God is a miracle working God and at just the right time it will happen. God is the God of the big picture. You getting too mental go to your heart and look at yourself you don’t have to go, but you can if you want to. The apostasy won’t stop Him, death didn’t stop him. Only five hundred strong willed people changed the world. Do you think you know God?

 

[disciple Clint]

Some have a theology in which human decisions while appearing to be free are in fact predetermined and predestined in every minute detail. Every atom and sub-atomic particle is said to be disposed according to God's eternal plan, sometimes called God's eternal decree. Thus all human freedom is curtailed by the decree and will proceed only within the absolutely predetermined course of God's plan. And so, you do not actually act as a free moral agent but as a moral agent acting according to the predetermined plan and purposes of God. Your decisions are not freely made but are in fact made according to the plan and only seem to be free because the details of the plan are not known to you and thus you live under the illusion of doing as you please because you please to do it.

Do you think that is how God works in this world of ours?

NO

 

[bling]

“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

God is not limited by time and we experimentally have shown over the last 100 years; time is relative. God is outside of time so:

God at the end of time would know historically everything that happened include the free will choices you made and will make? History cannot be change, it happened and everything you did and will do becomes history for God at the end of time. God at the end of time thus provides a perfect history to Himself at the beginning of time, but that in no way would keep you from making autonomous free will choices.

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God’s actions are also fixed and can be called foreordained or predestined.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual while communicating to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

To better address your question: If God decides to never ever create a person, then God knows exactly what that person did in the future, which is nothing, but God would not know any history of what that person did, since that person has no history (he/she never was a person and made no free will choices).

 

[childeye 2]

Some have a theology in which human decisions while appearing to be free are in fact predetermined and predestined in every minute detail. Every atom and sub-atomic particle is said to be disposed according to God's eternal plan, sometimes called God's eternal decree. Thus all human freedom is curtailed by the decree and will proceed only within the absolutely predetermined course of God's plan. And so, you do not actually act as a free moral agent but as a moral agent acting according to the predetermined plan and purposes of God. Your decisions are not freely made but are in fact made according to the plan and only seem to be free because the details of the plan are not known to you and thus you live under the illusion of doing as you please because you please to do it.

Do you think that is how God works in this world of ours?

I see a flesh and blood body that moves between comfort and discomfort as a unit of self.
And I see a spiritual component that is the Light and life in the souls of all selves, and it is selfless and it is God.

I would think that to discuss the topic of the will in the context of whether the will is predestined or autonomous or both, it would have terms to account for the case of innocence, and the necessity to move between reverence/irreverence of God's Glory. Because otherwise, what's the point of Jesus saying you can't serve two masters?

 

[Clare73]

Some have a theology in which human decisions while appearing to be free are in fact predetermined and predestined in every minute detail. Every atom and sub-atomic particle is said to be disposed according to God's eternal plan, sometimes called God's eternal decree. Thus all human freedom is curtailed by the decree and will proceed only within the absolutely predetermined course of God's plan. And so, you do not actually act as a free moral agent but as a moral agent acting according to the predetermined plan and purposes of God. Your decisions are not freely made but are in fact made according to the plan and only seem to be free because the details of the plan are not known to you and thus you live under the illusion of doing as you please because you please to do it.

Do you think that is how God works in this world of ours?

Man does not have complete moral freedom, the power to make all moral choices.
Man cannot choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed.

So let's put to rest any notions of man's moral autonomy.
Man has limited moral freedom.

And if man is not autonomous in moral freedom, why object if he is not "autonomous" in all freedom.

NB: Man is free to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, likes.

 

[BobRyan]

Some have a theology in which human decisions while appearing to be free are in fact predetermined and predestined in every minute detail. Every atom and sub-atomic particle is said to be disposed according to God's eternal plan, sometimes called God's eternal decree. Thus all human freedom is curtailed by the decree and will proceed only within the absolutely predetermined course of God's plan. And so, you do not actually act as a free moral agent but as a moral agent acting according to the predetermined plan and purposes of God. Your decisions are not freely made but are in fact made according to the plan and only seem to be free because the details of the plan are not known to you and thus you live under the illusion of doing as you please because you please to do it.

Do you think that is how God works in this world of ours?

There is a difference between what God knows and what He decrees/ordains

"God is not willing that any should perish - but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3
Yet God knows full well it is only the "few" of Matt 7 that go to heaven.

God who knows everything -- can still say in Gen 6:. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

As you point out some folks confuse the fact that God is all-knowing with the idea that he commands/ordains everything that happens.

If you see a movie and then go watch it again - with a friend all the while explaining some of the subtle details in the film - your knowledge of everything that will happen as your friend watches -- does not mean you wrote the script.

 

[BobRyan]

I would think that to discuss the topic of the will in the context of whether the will is predestined or autonomous or both, it would have terms to account for the case of innocence, and the necessity to move between reverence/irreverence of God's Glory. Because otherwise, what's the point of Jesus saying you can't serve two masters?

Amen.

In fact in John 1:11-12 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" is followed by the open invitation to all to accept Him.

At the end of 2 Cor 5 Paul says "we BEG you on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

In Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in"

 

[BobRyan]

“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

God is not limited by time and we experimentally have shown over the last 100 years; time is relative. God is outside of time so:

God at the end of time would know historically everything that happened include the free will choices you made and will make? History cannot be change, it happened and everything you did and will do becomes history for God at the end of time. God at the end of time thus provides a perfect history to Himself at the beginning of time, but that in no way would keep you from making autonomous free will choices.

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God’s actions are also fixed and can be called foreordained or predestined.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual while communicating to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

The problem comes in when people try to sit in God's chair in an effort to figure out how He can allow free will even though He is all knowing.

The solution is generally to - get out of God's chair.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Man does not have complete moral freedom, the power to make all moral choices.
Man cannot choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed.

So let's put to rest any notions of man's moral autonomy.
Man has limited moral freedom.

And if man is not autonomous in moral freedom, why object if he is not "autonomous" in all freedom.

NB: Man is free to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, likes.

But isn't that just repeating what the OP first paragraph says?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you see a movie and then go watch it again - with a friend all the while explaining some of the subtle details in the film - your knowledge of everything that will happen as your friend watches -- does not mean you wrote the script.

A fair point.

 

[childeye 2]

Amen.

In fact in John 1:11-12 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" is followed by the open invitation to all to accept Him.

At the end of 2 Cor 5 Paul says "we BEG you on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

In Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in"

In the order of all things God is the most taken for granted.

 

[eleos1954]

Some have a theology in which human decisions while appearing to be free are in fact predetermined and predestined in every minute detail. Every atom and sub-atomic particle is said to be disposed according to God's eternal plan, sometimes called God's eternal decree. Thus all human freedom is curtailed by the decree and will proceed only within the absolutely predetermined course of God's plan. And so, you do not actually act as a free moral agent but as a moral agent acting according to the predetermined plan and purposes of God. Your decisions are not freely made but are in fact made according to the plan and only seem to be free because the details of the plan are not known to you and thus you live under the illusion of doing as you please because you please to do it.

Do you think that is how God works in this world of ours?

Was it Gods plan for sin? No .... and still isn't .... all throughout the ages have .... and will make their choices ..... we aren't robots .... all of Gods intelligent creations are free agents .... He don't force Himself on anybody. God IS love and love requires choice .... it's not a forced issue else it's not love.

 

[childeye 2]

Was it Gods plan for sin? No .... and still isn't .... all throughout the ages have .... and will make their choices ..... we aren't robots .... all of Gods intelligent creations are free agents .... He don't force Himself on anybody. God IS love and love requires choice .... it's not a forced issue else it's not love.

I get what you're saying. Your sentiments remind me of the prodigal son. The Father didn't force the son to stay, even though the Father didn't want him to go. But the son was deceived in his imagination that things would be better for him outside his Father's house and only later on did he see his error.

My point is that True worship is drawn out by the object of worship, and that True worship is not voluntary, as if a person could choose not to. Likewise, I love God not because I'm free to choose not to Love Him, but because He is worthy. The topic of free-will easily gets lost in semantics.

 

[eleos1954]

I get what you're saying. Your sentiments remind me of the prodigal son. The Father didn't force the son to stay, even though the Father didn't want him to go. But the son was deceived in his imagination that things would be better for him outside his Father's house and only later on did he see his error.

My point is that True worship is drawn out by the object of worship, and that True worship is not voluntary, as if a person could choose not to. Likewise, I love God not because I'm free to choose not to Love Him, but because He is worthy. The topic of free-will easily gets lost in semantics.

Revelation 4:11

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

1 John 4:7-12 says: Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: he sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

1 John 4

For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

John 3:35

The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.


John 5:20

For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

John 17:24

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

John 10:17
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

Ephesians 1:6

to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

All about LOVE ... Gods love towards mankind.