Free will?

[G4m]

Free will is something I don't believe in anymore. My view is that our 'choices' are simply manifestations of God's plan and creation. Belief has been already determined:

Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faith is only a gift from God and is the only thing that can save:

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

We are created the way God wants:

Romans 9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Even the fact that God created time, seems to be proof that nothing can happen within His creation that is against His will.

What is everyone else's views?

 

[Jim B]

G4m wrote

Free will is something I don't believe in anymore. My view is that our 'choices' are simply manifestations of God's plan and creation. Belief has been already determined:

Try this.

Your choice to not believe in freewill anymore was an act of freewill in itself.

As for reconciling the doctrine of predestination with the doctrine of freewill, try this:

Eons ago, in eternity past when God decided to create the universe and God laid out His plan for the human race – “in the beginning” -- He looked ahead and saw (“foreknew”) the decisions we would make and foreordained (“predestined”) it to be so. The choices we make are ours, but the plan is His.

Hence, those who “were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13.48) just as God knew they would.

Consider this:

If God has already arbitraily chosen those who will be saved/lost, what is the point of evangelism and the motivation for missions? Why would Paul and the Apostles leave home and family, sacrifice everything and lay down their lives for something which does not require any effort on their part?

It seems that hyper-Calvinism subscribes to a Christianized form of pagan fatalism. If we have no choice in our eternal destiny then we become a victim of fate. Life becomes pointless and we must resign ourself to it.

Furthermore, how could God (or anyone) love a robot (I enjoy my toys but I don’t love them) or how could we be commanded to love Him if, in fact, we are robots who have no choice in the matter?

If we are pre-programmed to have faith in God, how is it, then, that faith pleases God (Heb. 11.6).

To hyper-Calvinists life is presented as a sinister and capricious game God is playing with His creation, creating some to life everlasting and some to eternal damnation. Why?

Fact is, the so-called doctrine of freewill has been a central doctrine of the Christian church and the freewill-predestination debate has been a part of Christian history since its beginning. For example:

• 110-165AD Justin Martyr "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)

• 185-255 AD Origen "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from Him." (Origen Against Celsus bk. 7, chap. 42)

• 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21)

• 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17)

• 250-300 AD Archelaus "All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus Disputation With Manes sees. 32, 33)

• 260-315 AD Methodius "Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils. " (Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8, chap. 16)​

There are many online sources presenting both sides of the freewill/predestination debate. Check them out and take your [freewill] choice.

~Jim

 

[themuzicman]

Free will is something I don't believe in anymore. My view is that our 'choices' are simply manifestations of God's plan and creation. Belief has been already determined:

Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The question here is whether ordaining means that God foreknew that they would receive eternal life, or that God knew those who were ready to receive it, and those who were ready did.

Faith is only a gift from God and is the only thing that can save:

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Grammatically, you are incorrect. "This" cannot refer specifically to "faith", because in the greek it does not agree with "faith" in gender. "This" is neuter, and "faith" is feminine.

However, there are no other neuter antecedents, either. So, "this" refers to the entire concept spoken of as the antecedent. And the concept spoken of is salvation, which is the gift. Faith is not.

We are created the way God wants:

Romans 9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Even the fact that God created time, seems to be proof that nothing can happen within His creation that is against His will.

All this means is that God is powerful enough to make what He wants to happen occur. We may want to get into medical school, but God's has another purpose for us, so He acts to prevent our will, so that we will pursue His.

This isn't overriding our free will, but God acting to bring about His.

What is everyone else's views?

God prophecies and bring about his prophesies through His omnipotence, such that the things He wishes to do are done, and our free will allows us to pursue whatever direction we wish to go. Whether we get there, however, is uncertain, since we aren't omnipotent.

Besides, if everything that happens is God's will, then isn't sin God's will? For that matter, isn't billions of people going to hell God's will? What about 1 Tim 2:4?

Michael

 

[G4m]

The question here is whether ordaining means that God foreknew that they would receive eternal life, or that God knew those who were ready to receive it, and those who were ready did.

However, God through Christ, as creator made us the way we are:

Jeremiah 1
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Grammatically, you are incorrect. "This" cannot refer specifically to "faith", because in the greek it does not agree with "faith" in gender. "This" is neuter, and "faith" is feminine.

However, there are no other neuter antecedents, either. So, "this" refers to the entire concept spoken of as the antecedent. And the concept spoken of is salvation, which is the gift. Faith is not.

OK thanks for the explanation, but faith still appears to be a gift:

1 Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

All this means is that God is powerful enough to make what He wants to happen occur. We may want to get into medical school, but God's has another purpose for us, so He acts to prevent our will, so that we will pursue His.

I think that verse is saying more than that, as it talks about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy and that this was prepared before hand:

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This isn't overriding our free will, but God acting to bring about His.


God prophecies and bring about his prophesies through His omnipotence, such that the things He wishes to do are done, and our free will allows us to pursue whatever direction we wish to go. Whether we get there, however, is uncertain, since we aren't omnipotent.

If God affects the creation in any way, then wouln't that affect free will?

Besides, if everything that happens is God's will, then isn't sin God's will?

Yes.

For that matter, isn't billions of people going to hell God's will? What about 1 Tim 2:4?

Michael

Well that's another issue, but wouldn't you think an omnipotent and omniscient God, who can create as much time as He wants be able to save all those He wants to save?

Bearing in mind:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


It may be interesting to look at the following, not necessarily for discussion on this thread, but still interesting. Why does He keep blinding people?


Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.





Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.



Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:8 ( According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.





Why hide?



Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.



Why hate?



Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Why harden?



Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.



Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



Why doesn't Jesus just explain all things to us now?



Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.



Why doesn't God just give us all faith now?



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;



Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Why hold back the word?



Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

 

[Gamecock]

Keep reading, you will find more and more passages that will prove to you that God is in control of all his creation!

 

[Neederofrebuke]

So, in this analogy, if I make a choice or think a certain way it is really god making the choice or thinking for me.

A puppet with strings even on his brains and feelings.

Neet! I like thinking about this.

If I did believe in this, though (not saying I don't or do), I wouldn't let it justify me to do anything stupid. Wether it's God or not that descides the things that I do it's still me that does them, and I pay the consequenses or gain rewards for them.