Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Does our thinking result from material pre conditions that we are entirely subject to? Or is there something else we draw upon?Our molecules are not running the show any more than the gas in our tank tells the car where to go.
Fee will is nothing more than your ability, as a human being, to think or not. We have it because we have a certain kind of consciousness, one that can form concepts, which process requires selective attention.
Yes, we are human beings, and yes, human beings think. But what does the thinking? As we are discussing at How Can Molecules Think? , it sure seems to me that it is the physical brain made of molecules that thinks. So when I say that I, as a human being, think, I mean the physical me thinks.Fee will is nothing more than your ability, as a human being, to think or not. We have it because we have a certain kind of consciousness, one that can form concepts, which process requires selective attention.
There are other things, but they are still all caused, etc... Or are already determined/predetermined already, etc... And there is only one way they can ever happen, or take place, or go, etc...Does our thinking result from material pre conditions that we are entirely subject to? Or is there something else we draw upon?
So, you're wondering if we'll get something mysterious that you can't even begin to describe... good luck with that!I don't know exactly, and that is part of the problem...
To me it's still some kind of mystery, elusive "thing" right now, and that is part of the problem...
Part of the reason why I said "who knows" right now, etc...
You don't understand why people can't understand why we don't have something you can't even begin to describe or explain?@FrumiousBandersnatch
I can't understand why many people on here just cannot seem to understand or see why we just don't have it truly right now though, etc...?
I was only trying to add a bit of optimism for those who still cling to the concept or idea so hard, etc...So, you're wondering if we'll get something mysterious that you can't even begin to describe... good luck with that!
A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...You don't understand why people can't understand why we don't have something you can't even begin to describe or explain?
Meh...
If you're saying that the action we take in response to some situation involves both complex computation and randomness, I'm with you - if not, I don't understand you.I think it might be an evolved capacity. Here's how I described it elsewhere:
I'm proposing that in the solution space of available choices for a decision, some of them can be cooked up in a causally unconnected consciousness zone. Maybe this zone is us harnessing accumulated randomness like some solvent that dissolves the ties of cause/effect in the mind. Then we can run somewhat free in the solution space, as one novel idea triggers others. The cascading novelty can even permit an untethering from the initial motivation for attacking a given problem.
@FrumiousBandersnatchA trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...
I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?
Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?
God Bless!
I would be a "hard determinist", etc, and anybody can look that up on the web, etc...A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...
I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?
Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?
God Bless!
What do you think I'm disagreeing with?A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...
I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?
No, I query what you say because it is opaque.Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?
I was asking you to explain what you were talking about with 'true free will' and you said you couldn't. My position on free will has nothing to do with it.This (above) is what you've told me about it before, etc...
I had to back you into a corner about it, but you basically said it, etc...
So if you've "changed your mind" about it now, then please at least just be clear about it, ok...
Because this is confusing, etc...
I was asking you to explain what you were talking about with 'true free will' and you said you couldn't.
My position on free will has nothing to do with it.
Why would a 'hard determinist' wonder about 'true free will'?
For the record, I think libertarian free will is incoherent, but I'll accept most well-defined compatibilist versions for the sake of argument.
Does our thinking result from material pre conditions that we are entirely subject to? Or is there something else we draw upon?
Im trying to cobble together a sense of how the individual could truly be the author of possibilities, at least in some small way.If you're saying that the action we take in response to some situation involves both complex computation and randomness, I'm with you - if not, I don't understand you.
It seems to me that decisions & choices are causal (computational) by implication; i.e. they involve some element of ranking the perceived options according to some internal criteria (our 'will' - preferences, desires, etc). IOW, we have reasons for deciding or choosing, even if they're only the result of inchoate feelings.
We can 'change our minds' during the decision-making process, i.e. the option rankings may change dynamically during the process, but however complex, the result is causal - if it was effectively random, it couldn't reflect our will - unless our will was for a random outcome (studies show that people are very poor at trying to be random).
I dont understand how a Christian could hold this position given the biblical statements about non-material interventions into the world.There are other things, but they are still all caused, etc... Or are already determined/predetermined already, etc... And there is only one way they can ever happen, or take place, or go, etc...
God Bless!
Well, most Christians are still living in rebellion, and still do not know or accept the truth, etc...I dont understand how a Christian could hold this position given the biblical statements about non-material interventions into the world.
What does/do non-material interventions have to do with it...?I dont understand how a Christian could hold this position given the biblical statements about non-material interventions into the world.
I'm happy to stand on my convictions if asked. You didn't ask.I think it has everything to do with it, unless you're just afraid to say it, etc...?
Any man or woman who won't stand on their own personal convictions, when they are convicted and convinced of it, is a coward, if you ask me...
But you did, really, here - in post #7 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯I don't really, not here anyway...
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?