Free Will

[durangodawood]

Our molecules are not running the show any more than the gas in our tank tells the car where to go.

Fee will is nothing more than your ability, as a human being, to think or not. We have it because we have a certain kind of consciousness, one that can form concepts, which process requires selective attention.

Does our thinking result from material pre conditions that we are entirely subject to? Or is there something else we draw upon?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Fee will is nothing more than your ability, as a human being, to think or not. We have it because we have a certain kind of consciousness, one that can form concepts, which process requires selective attention.

Yes, we are human beings, and yes, human beings think. But what does the thinking? As we are discussing at How Can Molecules Think? , it sure seems to me that it is the physical brain made of molecules that thinks. So when I say that I, as a human being, think, I mean the physical me thinks.

 

[Neogaia777]

When there is only one way, things, or anything, can ever happen or go, etc, then no one and nothing "thinks", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Does our thinking result from material pre conditions that we are entirely subject to? Or is there something else we draw upon?

There are other things, but they are still all caused, etc... Or are already determined/predetermined already, etc... And there is only one way they can ever happen, or take place, or go, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

It is only because of what we don't know, that we have the illusion that things can happen or go or take place here other than the way that they already are, or have already been predetermined or predestined already, to already happen or take place and/or go, etc...

And this includes every being's thoughts here even also, etc...

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I don't know exactly, and that is part of the problem...

To me it's still some kind of mystery, elusive "thing" right now, and that is part of the problem...

Part of the reason why I said "who knows" right now, etc...

So, you're wondering if we'll get something mysterious that you can't even begin to describe... good luck with that!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

@FrumiousBandersnatch

I can't understand why many people on here just cannot seem to understand or see why we just don't have it truly right now though, etc...?

You don't understand why people can't understand why we don't have something you can't even begin to describe or explain?

Meh...

 

[Neogaia777]

So, you're wondering if we'll get something mysterious that you can't even begin to describe... good luck with that!

I was only trying to add a bit of optimism for those who still cling to the concept or idea so hard, etc...

But, I do have to still honestly say that I still "do not know" about whether or not we will have it in the life hereafter though, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You don't understand why people can't understand why we don't have something you can't even begin to describe or explain?

Meh...

A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...

I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?

Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think it might be an evolved capacity. Here's how I described it elsewhere:

I'm proposing that in the solution space of available choices for a decision, some of them can be cooked up in a causally unconnected consciousness zone. Maybe this zone is us harnessing accumulated randomness like some solvent that dissolves the ties of cause/effect in the mind. Then we can run somewhat free in the solution space, as one novel idea triggers others. The cascading novelty can even permit an untethering from the initial motivation for attacking a given problem.

If you're saying that the action we take in response to some situation involves both complex computation and randomness, I'm with you - if not, I don't understand you.

It seems to me that decisions & choices are causal (computational) by implication; i.e. they involve some element of ranking the perceived options according to some internal criteria (our 'will' - preferences, desires, etc). IOW, we have reasons for deciding or choosing, even if they're only the result of inchoate feelings.

We can 'change our minds' during the decision-making process, i.e. the option rankings may change dynamically during the process, but however complex, the result is causal - if it was effectively random, it couldn't reflect our will - unless our will was for a random outcome (studies show that people are very poor at trying to be random).

 

[Neogaia777]

A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...

I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?

Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?

God Bless!

@FrumiousBandersnatch

This (above) is what you've told me about it before, etc...

I had to back you into a corner about it, but you basically said it, etc...

So if you've "changed your mind" about it now, then please at least just be clear about it, ok...

Because this is confusing, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...

I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?

Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?

God Bless!

I would be a "hard determinist", etc, and anybody can look that up on the web, etc...

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A trained monkey can look up "determinism" in all it's different forms on the web, etc...

I don't understand why your disagreeing with me so hard on this when I already know you see things in kind of the same kind of way...?

What do you think I'm disagreeing with?

You wondered if we'd get 'true free will' at some point, and when I asked you what you meant, you had no idea. Then you said you don't understand why others can't understand why we don't have it. I assumed you were still talking about 'true free will', something you say you can't describe or explain... can you not see how this is... odd?

There are three main philosophical positions on having free will - denial (it doesn't exist), compatibilism (it's compatible with effective determinism) and libertarianism (it's a 'ghost in the machine', somehow beyond science, determinism, & randomness). The first is often seen as simplistic literal physicalism, the second as redefining free will, and the third as incoherent.

So it helps to say what you mean by free will - your aspirational 'true free will' sounds libertarian, which is why I asked you what you meant.

Is that only because I am a believer, and because I put "God Bless!" at the end of my posts, or "what" exactly, etc...?

No, I query what you say because it is opaque.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

This (above) is what you've told me about it before, etc...

I had to back you into a corner about it, but you basically said it, etc...

So if you've "changed your mind" about it now, then please at least just be clear about it, ok...

Because this is confusing, etc...

I was asking you to explain what you were talking about with 'true free will' and you said you couldn't. My position on free will has nothing to do with it.

Why would a 'hard determinist' wonder about 'true free will'?

For the record, I think libertarian free will is incoherent, but I'll accept most well-defined compatibilist versions for the sake of argument (but not as logical arguments for ideas like moral responsibility).

 

[Neogaia777]

I was asking you to explain what you were talking about with 'true free will' and you said you couldn't.

(This will be in response to both of your replies to me, etc)

See post #28, as I'm not up for repeating myself, or really trying to push this idea/issue much further, etc...

Here, we don't have it, and as for any theoretical "somewhere else", etc, I have to say "I do not know", etc...

My position on free will has nothing to do with it.

I think it has everything to do with it, unless you're just afraid to say it, etc...?

Any man or woman who won't stand on their own personal convictions, when they are convicted and convinced of it, is a coward, if you ask me...

Or he is just maybe wanting to play both sides, etc, if you ask me, etc...

Why would a 'hard determinist' wonder about 'true free will'?

I don't really, not here anyway, and as for any theoretical "somewhere else", as I do wonder about the afterlife, I have to be honest and say "I do not know", etc...

Also post #28 again, etc...

For the record, I think libertarian free will is incoherent, but I'll accept most well-defined compatibilist versions for the sake of argument.

Look, we either have it, or we don't, and all else is "hogwash", intellectual "you know what", etc, like me and @Bradskii have said, or have been saying, etc...

There is no mixing the two, etc...

So if you want to talk about that, then fine, but I'm personally no longer interested in trying to convince people about this issue when they just don't want to be convinced it just doesn't exist, etc...

(post #19, etc)...

I have better things to do, or other things I could be doing, etc...

God Bless!

 

[durangodawood]

Does our thinking result from material pre conditions that we are entirely subject to? Or is there something else we draw upon?

If you're saying that the action we take in response to some situation involves both complex computation and randomness, I'm with you - if not, I don't understand you.

It seems to me that decisions & choices are causal (computational) by implication; i.e. they involve some element of ranking the perceived options according to some internal criteria (our 'will' - preferences, desires, etc). IOW, we have reasons for deciding or choosing, even if they're only the result of inchoate feelings.

We can 'change our minds' during the decision-making process, i.e. the option rankings may change dynamically during the process, but however complex, the result is causal - if it was effectively random, it couldn't reflect our will - unless our will was for a random outcome (studies show that people are very poor at trying to be random).

Im trying to cobble together a sense of how the individual could truly be the author of possibilities, at least in some small way.

Essentially this is about how strictly material reality could give rise to a "higher level" system (some element of human consciousness) thats not completely bound by the rules of physical reality.

Its just base speculation to support a sense of self I feel intuitively. Im certainly not wedded to it. But by the same token Im not wedded to pure materialism. Im skeptical of all the big philosophical "certainties" about conditions at the edge of understanding.

 

[durangodawood]

There are other things, but they are still all caused, etc... Or are already determined/predetermined already, etc... And there is only one way they can ever happen, or take place, or go, etc...

God Bless!

I dont understand how a Christian could hold this position given the biblical statements about non-material interventions into the world.

 

[Neogaia777]

I dont understand how a Christian could hold this position given the biblical statements about non-material interventions into the world.

Well, most Christians are still living in rebellion, and still do not know or accept the truth, etc...

But there are a few of us who are still true, etc...

See here, starting with this post and some of mine after it, etc: How Can Molecules Think?

Perhaps it will clarify some things if only slightly at present, etc...

Because there is a lot more; "a lot more", etc...

Most of which most Christians do not know at present, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I dont understand how a Christian could hold this position given the biblical statements about non-material interventions into the world.

What does/do non-material interventions have to do with it...?

Anyway, please read what I linked in the post above this one just now, and maybe that will clarify matters some, or just only a little bit, etc...

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think it has everything to do with it, unless you're just afraid to say it, etc...?

Any man or woman who won't stand on their own personal convictions, when they are convicted and convinced of it, is a coward, if you ask me...

I'm happy to stand on my convictions if asked. You didn't ask.

I don't really, not here anyway...

But you did, really, here - in post #7 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯