free will

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,287
3,674
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟218,088.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Some may interpret it to mean we are predestined before we are chosen.
Chicken or egg?

Kinda like asking "were we picked before we were chosen or chosen before we were picked?"
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,287
3,674
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟218,088.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How free is anyone, really? Tell the fat man that he's completely free to stop eating too much and lose all the excess weight. Tell the alcoholic that all he has to do is decide to quit drinking, because he's completely free to do so. Tell any of us that we're altogether free to live a sinless life wholly pleasing to God. How often is it gonna happen, no matter how much we'd like it to. I'm free to get a PhD in Physics and a job as a professor, but how likely is it to happen?

And lets make it a bit worse. Homeless Jerry wanders the streets downtown, sleeps in doorways, eats out of trashcans, and spends what little money he gets on coffee and cigarettes (he doesn't drink alcohol or take drugs as far as I know). Most of the time, if you notice him at all, it's because he's standing on a corner or leaned against a wall somewhere, shaking his fist, and shouting the same swear word over and over and over and over until the spell passes.

Jerry (and he is real, BTW) is a slave to whatever is wrong with his brain. But you and I aren't, are we? At least not to the extent that Jerry is. But there's the thing. There are physical and mental limits on what we can, and what we will, do. Best intentions are fine, and will power is great, but it is, as the saying goes, not in us to command success. Cop out? Maybe, but the next time one of us actually manages to live without sin, then I'll put more stock in the sort of "free will" that brings salvation. For the rest of us poor knuckleheads jammed into a life of sin by our own mental and physical limitations, the direct intervention of a Savior is necessary. Our free will isn't going to save us any more than Jerry's free will is gonna make him sane.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0
N

Nanopants

Guest
How free is anyone, really? Tell the fat man that he's completely free to stop eating too much and lose all the excess weight. Tell the alcoholic that all he has to do is decide to quit drinking, because he's completely free to do so. Tell any of us that we're altogether free to live a sinless life wholly pleasing to God. How often is it gonna happen, no matter how much we'd like it to. I'm free to get a PhD in Physics and a job as a professor, but how likely is it to happen?

And lets make it a bit worse. Homeless Jerry wanders the streets downtown, sleeps in doorways, eats out of trashcans, and spends what little money he gets on coffee and cigarettes (he doesn't drink alcohol or take drugs as far as I know). Most of the time, if you notice him at all, it's because he's standing on a corner or leaned against a wall somewhere, shaking his fist, and shouting the same swear word over and over and over and over until the spell passes.

Jerry (and he is real, BTW) is a slave to whatever is wrong with his brain. But you and I aren't, are we? At least not to the extent that Jerry is. But there's the thing. There are physical and mental limits on what we can, and what we will, do. Best intentions are fine, and will power is great, but it is, as the saying goes, not in us to command success. Cop out? Maybe, but the next time one of us actually manages to live without sin, then I'll put more stock in the sort of "free will" that brings salvation. For the rest of us poor knuckleheads jammed into a life of sin by our own mental and physical limitations, the direct intervention of a Savior is necessary. Our free will isn't going to save us any more than Jerry's free will is gonna make him sane.

If Paul and Silas being delivered from prison means anything at all (Acts 16:24-26), I'd suppose it means that with the message of the Gospel, we have enough freedom to believe in a God who is very good, and direct intervention may be required to set us free from the kind of bondage that you're describing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Emmy

Senior Veteran
Feb 15, 2004
10,199
939
✟50,995.00
Faith
Salvation Army
Dear Nanopants. We have free will to either follow God`s Commandments, or go our own way. Jesus told a Lawyer in Matthew 22: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus points out: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law, and the Prophets." Straightforward and easy to remember.
When Jesus was praying to God in the Garden, Jesus did ask God to take this Cup from Him, but then Jesus said: " But not my will be done, but Yours"
Jesus Himself decided to choose Death, that we might live. God gave us free will in all we say or do, we have the choice, either follow God`s loving advive, or go our own way: Jesus died that we might live.
The Commandments Jesus gives us, are loving advice. God Loves us and God
wants loving children/sons and daughters. Jesus promised to give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. ( Matthew 7,
verses 7-8) Then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour,
and we keep asking and receiving, and sharing all Love and Joy with all around us. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and bless us.
We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us,
thank God and start sharing and caring.
God gave us free will, and we choose to follow God`s Commandments,
because we Love God and want to do His Will. God`s Will for us is always for our Best. I say this with love, Nanopants. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. For those who do not want to return to God, Jesus told us of a Place in Outer Darkness, without God`s Love or Light.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'd say "no."

Having him with me and me doing what he wants is one thing. Being a puppet without any will of my own is another. There's nothing appealing about that.
But you obviously do have a will, so then you can't be a puppet.
But now that we are certain we have a will & we are NOT "puppets", how could we ever doubt that our wikk isn't "free"?

Do we equate willpower with freedom?
I don't.
The will is affected by many things.
So we can jettison the puppet analogy as inadequate to the task of investigating this issue, hopefully.


We are not discussing the existence of our will, only trying to define it's limitations, if any.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't see why God doesn't have free will.. no one can keep Him from doing anything he wants. But Jesus came specifically to Earth to do his fathers will. He chose to do it, and he chose it freely out of his grace
Because He is only good, His will isn't free to be evil.

I don't see why will has to be free. It isn't independant of the one who exercises it, & that person may lack discretion, masturity, information, experience,... will can only ever be relatively free.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I know of no one who believes such a thing.
I do.
It's because I believe God is omniscient & omnipotent.
He knew what would happen in every moment & aspect of creation begfore He created. He considered every possibility before He chose to create this actuality. From His perspective, there are no "random" accidents. He knows every cause of every action.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
But you obviously do have a will, so then you can't be a puppet.
But now that we are certain we have a will & we are NOT "puppets", how could we ever doubt that our wikk isn't "free"?

Do we equate willpower with freedom?
I don't.
The will is affected by many things.
So we can jettison the puppet analogy as inadequate to the task of investigating this issue, hopefully.


We are not discussing the existence of our will, only trying to define it's limitations, if any.

Our wikk IS free!

Seriously, we have free will, unless the topic is salvation. Even Calvinist predestinarians maintain that the absence of free choice only concerns choosing God, not everything else in life, so this reinforces the idea that the "puppet" analogy goes way too far. As for the free will, yes it can be restricted by outside factors. If I want a new Mitsubishi instead of a Ford, but there is no dealer nearby, you might say that your freedom of choice has been reduced somewhat by other people's actions.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The puppet analogy actualy addresses the existence of a will, not it's freedom in even a relative sense.
As for the free will, yes it can be restricted by outside factors.
And if I have Turret's syndrome, it is restricted by an inside factor, unless we consider our bodies as external to ourselves, in which case your we are as you say, restricted by outside factors.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums