Free will

[ReformedChapin]

But the bible defines love
1Corinthians 13:4- 7


I did get my definition of love from the bible..

You are confusing our love for God's love. God instructs us to not take revenge, to love of our enemies because God will take revenge not us. That however doesn't imply that God loves everyone, he clearly will seek to destroy the wicked.

 

[CruciFixed]

He designs the future and controls destiny, right?

 

[drstevej]

He works all things after the counsel of His will.

EPH 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Nadiine]

He works all things after the counsel of His will.

EPH 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

yep

 

[JustAsIam77]

He works all things after the counsel of His will.

EPH 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Bingo. *God has predestined ALL things according to His perfect plan. He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.

*Please note this passage from scripture does not include our contribution in any way to sway our Sovereign God from doing as He pleases, entirely at His pleasure.

 

[Nadiine]

Thankfully I don't have to fully know how God does everything that
He does or even know why...

I just know He's in full control becuz He's told us the end from the beginning.
Soli Deo Gloria

 

[ReformedChapin]

Thankfully I don't have to fully know how God does everything that
He does or even know why...

I just know He's in full control becuz He's told us the end from the beginning.
Soli Deo Gloria

However knowing if we contribute to our salvation is essential. It will affect how you minister to people, how you structure your church and what is the truth.

All Glory to God (Soli Doe Gloria) the one of the pillars of the reformers used to show that in all things especially in our salvation or damnation all the glory goes to God.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Thankfully I don't have to fully know how God does everything that
He does or even know why...

I just know He's in full control becuz He's told us the end from the beginning.
Soli Deo Gloria

Amen! God says "I Am who I Am" Who among us can understand His wondrous majesty & ways!

 

[CruciFixed]

Well of course when we are saved all the glory is His. I just didn't know whether or not we have the freedom to choose between good and evil things. I have another question but as I typed these words it floated away. LOL

 

[JustAsIam77]

However knowing if we contribute to our salvation is essential. It will affect how you minister to people, how you structure your church and what is the truth.

All Glory to God (Soli Doe Gloria) the one of the pillars of the reformers used to show that in all things especially in our salvation or damnation all the glory goes to God.

Soli Deo gloria. Always the glory goes to God. He is the alpha & omega. The beginning and the end.

As a child I tried to contemplate the idea that God has always been and will be forever. It still takes a lot to bend my mind around that fact.

 

[Ryft]

I just didn't know whether or not we have the freedom to choose between good and evil things.

We do. And the unsaved use that freedom to always choose sin. That is the very nature of the problem; that is why without Christ mankind is doomed; that is why without the sovereign and omnipotent grace of God no one would be saved.

 

[Nadiine]

However knowing if we contribute to our salvation is essential. It will affect how you minister to people, how you structure your church and what is the truth.

All Glory to God (Soli Doe Gloria) the one of the pillars of the reformers used to show that in all things especially in our salvation or damnation all the glory goes to God.

well glory to God for choosing your salvation is alot easier to give
than glory to Him for damning your soul I'd say

Much easier for Christians to say

 

[Rhamiel]

no one says that people can pick God on their own

 

[CADude12]

The Calvinist interpretation is that man is unable to do anything to save himself, the task being too great and the corruption of nature due to sin being so extensive. The Arminian interpretation is that man responds to God's offer of salvation (at least this is how I understood it). I am a Calvinist (PCA), and this kind of doctrinal thing tends to divide instead of unite. If it is necessary that things like this are answered before we can work together, then we are in serious trouble.

 

[JustAsIam77]

The Calvinist interpretation is that man is unable to do anything to save himself, the task being too great and the corruption of nature due to sin being so extensive. The Arminian interpretation is that man responds to God's offer of salvation (at least this is how I understood it). I am a Calvinist (PCA), and this kind of doctrinal thing tends to divide instead of unite. If it is necessary that things like this are answered before we can work together, then we are in serious trouble.

But when delving into the "meat" of the gospel after supping on milk, we begin to understand the deeper meaning of Gods word.

After consideration of scripture over years I can't dismiss the truth that Calvin, Luther, Zwingli and other reformers opinions after a lifetime of study in scripture were instrumental in opening my eyes to deeper revelations. God is Sovereign. There are His elect and there are those He chooses to leave in sin. According to His will. AND HIS WILL ALONE. We are made rightious thru the blood of the Lamb. Period. God is glorified thru the reprobrate as well as the chosen.

He chooses who He chooses to be saved. He chooses who He chooses to be left in a fallen nature. All to the glory of God.

 

[Nadiine]

But when delving into the "meat" of the gospel after supping on milk, we begin to understand the deeper meaning of Gods word.

After consideration of scripture over years I can't dismiss the truth that Calvin, Luther, Zwingli and other reformers opinions after a lifetime of study in scripture were instrumental in opening my eyes to deeper revelations. God is Sovereign. There are His elect and there are those He chooses to leave in sin. According to His will. AND HIS WILL ALONE. We are made rightious thru the blood of the Lamb. Period. God is glorified thru the reprobrate as well as the chosen.

He chooses who He chooses to be saved. He chooses who He chooses to be left in a fallen nature. All to the glory of God.

one day we'll find out which is correct; if both aren't correct to a certain degree.

My interest is in the "foreknowledge" God bases His choices on. I wish the Bible told us exactly what it is He's evaluating.

The Bible is very thorough and jam packed with teachings & information, but it's sometimes vague in some areas & it keeps us from full agreement on some [minor] doctrines that aren't necessary to positively know for salvation.

 

[Marysmuse]

Ok, having started a post before I knew this thread was here... Rather than begin a whole new discussion, I hope folks won't mind if I respond to this.

I am deeply disturbed at how few actual Scriptures I've seen referenced in 8 pages of discussion. Until I came to CF, I was completely unfamiliar with the teachings of Calvin, and had never heard of Armenian (spelling?).

All I know of God is from the Bible. I do read Bible scholars and great Christian thinkers, but for truth, I believe we have to look to the Scriptures.

Pre-destination does not make sense to me in light of the verse that says he "is not willing that even one should be lost". (I'll have to look it up for the exact wording.)

I wonder if some posters here know how it sounds to new believers and those of us who don't accept pre-destination when you say things like "base your view of God on the Bible". Statements like these seem to imply that my view of God is somehow less valid than yours, that I am "wrong" in thinking that a truly Just and Loving God, a Holy God Who keeps His covenant, is unchanging and consistent.

The same God Who allowed free-will to happen in the Garden is the same God Who allows people to choose Hell.

God's love, God's consistency, means that He will accept their choice, even though His love would not see them turn away. He will not change His view on sin, will not force them to turn to Him.

If God chose me, and not my sister, how can I love Him? If He, Who claims to love her more than I can comprehend, picked me, leaving behind my husband, how can I embrace Him as a good and loving God? These are serious questions, and I require an explanation which does not rely on the teachings of any church Leader, no matter how brilliant, but on the Scripture which is the basis and foundation of my faith.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary

 

[desmalia]

Hi Mary, and welcome to the CF!

Ok, having started a post before I knew this thread was here... Rather than begin a whole new discussion, I hope folks won't mind if I respond to this.

I am deeply disturbed at how few actual Scriptures I've seen referenced in 8 pages of discussion. Until I came to CF, I was completely unfamiliar with the teachings of Calvin, and had never heard of Armenian (spelling?).

Well, yes it's certainly good practice to share Scripture whenever possible. I think that at times though, for those who have discussed these issues at length with one another, we're already familiar with which passages we're discussing, so may not take the time to post them so often. This is something to reconsider though, as it is always good to have the Scriptures here to read as well.

I didn't know much of the details of Calvinism vs. Arminianism either before I came to CF. Coming here kinda forced me to research them a bit, and I'm glad I did. I'd always been taught that Calvinism was some kind of evil cult or something. But guess what... it's not at all. In fact I believe it is a more accurate and deeper view of God's sovereignty, now that I understand it better. Now true, issues like these should not cause us to break fellowship. But at the same time, it is good to discuss them so that we can lean and force ourselves to ask the hard questions.

All I know of God is from the Bible. I do read Bible scholars and great Christian thinkers, but for truth, I believe we have to look to the Scriptures.

Pre-destination does not make sense to me in light of the verse that says he "is not willing that even one should be lost". (I'll have to look it up for the exact wording.)

OK, but does that mean you are a Universalist? If not, then you know that some are indeed lost. The question is how and why. But even more important - how and why any of us are saved, since we are all deserving of eternal damnation.

I wonder if some posters here know how it sounds to new believers and those of us who don't accept pre-destination when you say things like "base your view of God on the Bible". Statements like these seem to imply that my view of God is somehow less valid than yours, that I am "wrong" in thinking that a truly Just and Loving God, a Holy God Who keeps His covenant, is unchanging and consistent.

I would hope that we all look to the Scriptures to form doctrine instead of basing it on what some stranger said on a forum. In fact I don't recommend forums for new believers at all because anyone can slap on a Christian icon and teach all kinds of heresies. I see it every day. That's not exactly solid discipleship.

It also caught my eye that you mentioned God keeping His covenants. You may be very surprised to learn that that's actually a big part of Reformed theology.

The same God Who allowed free-will to happen in the Garden is the same God Who allows people to choose Hell.

God's love, God's consistency, means that He will accept their choice, even though His love would not see them turn away. He will not change His view on sin, will not force them to turn to Him.

If God chose me, and not my sister, how can I love Him? If He, Who claims to love her more than I can comprehend, picked me, leaving behind my husband, how can I embrace Him as a good and loving God? These are serious questions, and I require an explanation which does not rely on the teachings of any church Leader, no matter how brilliant, but on the Scripture which is the basis and foundation of my faith.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary

Well, first of all, Calvinism never suggests that we know who is the elect and who is not. If your sister is not currently a believer, you cannot EVER just assume that she is not elect. You don't know. I also urge you to consider God's whole character, not just that He is Love. He is also Holy and Just. And we are fallen creatures, unworthy of entering into His presence. So, that He saves any of us at all is incredible grace and love. It is not something any of us deserves on our own.

A lot of people who have never really researched the Reformed doctrines of grace tend to assume that Calvinists are all just a bunch of elitist kooks or something. But I encourage you to reserve judgment on that until you have researched the actual doctrines for yourself, if you feel so inclined to. I highly recommend RC Sproul's "Chosen by God". It's a light overview of and a fairly quick read. Whether you agree with it or not in the end, at least you can then have a better understanding of it.

 

[Nadiine]

I believe Calvinism is mostly accurate, but I do believe we play
a small part in accepting salvation or rejecting with God's enablement.

So I'd be one of those doctrinal mixes.

I think there should be a note about the types of Calvanism tho,
one is a hyper Calvianism that I don't think well respected Christian
scholars like John MacArthur ascribe to.
I just learned he's Calvianist and I was surprised.

I still believe God enables us (since we're spiritually dead and cannot
do anything in that condition) to be able to make a choice and does
all the drawing, and does choose us.

I love my Calvanist brothers & sisters & won't divide due to
a slight difference on it. It is biblical, I just think the methodology
lends to a bit of acceptance on our part with God enabling us to
be able to when we couldn't have had He not worked in us.

In the end, this subject has been hotly debated for ages, and I
wouldn't expect a brand new Christian to be able to wrap their
arms around it and fully come to a determination either way when
it's properly studied and all the aspects that relate to it.
It's pretty complex imho. and after being a Christian for some
12 years now, I can't fully come to a conclusion on
this.

(HI DES! - how's your connection? great to see you)
hug

 

[desmalia]

(HI DES! - how's your connection? great to see you)
hug

Hi sis! Great to see you too! I'm finally able to stay logged in to CF after all this time, yay!! I still cannot see many of the graphics people put in posts and in my guestbook most of the time. But at least I'm not getting booted off all the time anymore.

<...snip...>
I think there should be a note about the types of Calvanism tho,
one is a hyper Calvianism that I don't think well respected Christian
scholars like John MacArthur ascribe to.
I just learned he's Calvianist and I was surprised.

I just wanted to pick up on this part of your post.
(And I'm not gonna fix yer spellings of Calvinist/ism either, cuz it gave me a giggle. )

Anyway, you make a good point about hyper Calvinism. Many confuse it with Calvinism, when in fact it is absolutely NOT Calvinism or even just a slight degree off. It is legalistic and utterly lacking in grace. Unfortunately, because it is so often confused with Calvinism, many assume the worst and never look deeper into the doctrines. And yep, Johnny Mac is one of us! LOL. Actually when I first started studying the doctrines, I found his overviews very helpful.