Free will

[drstevej]

My entire denomination is currently seeking communion with the Catholic Church.

Why wait? If it is obedience to be one church no need waiting for negotiations.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Since God has control of everything in the universe and we do not have Free Will then why did he create Satan knowing full well what harm he'd cause to Eve then of course she was predestined to eat the forbidden fruit so how can He get angry that she'd do something He chose for her to do thus leading to the torture and murder of His only begotten son?

Ask him when you see HIM? Remember Christ was destined to die before the foundation of the world for US.

We know He knows whats gonna happen forever and ever but since we dont' have free will how come he just didn't force Eve to ignore the serpent? This God who doesn't give people free will or choice sounds chaotic not so much loving and kind.

God doesn't force anything on anyone. Our free will concides with his will. What I mean by "free will" like Augustine, Luther and Calvin mean is that we do what we most desire. That doesn't mean we are contingent beings, we dont arbitralty make decisions for some random reason. Instead every step we make every choice we make is directed by God. And yes God wanted the Fall to Occur and God can blame Eve for it because she WANTED to make the choice. There was no force involved in it.

As far as "that's not loving or kind" that's a purely subjective notion. There is no argument biblically about God's soverign choice being unloving or unkind. And there is certainly nothing chaotic about God controlling the universe and every single little thing about it.

 

[CruciFixed]

Ok so he wanted her to want the fruit and he wanted the fall of mankind because he was bored or something? Why would he want destruction? I dont get it.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Augustine:
The spirit of grace, therefore, causes us to have faith, in order that through faith we may, on praying for it, obtain the ability to do what we are commanded. http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Catholic Catechism
153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven".24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"25
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

I still dont see anywhere that Augustine says "God invites human beings to be apart of his Kingdom."

 

[ReformedChapin]

Ok so he wanted her to want the fruit and he wanted the fall of mankind because he was bored? Why would he want destruction?

We don't know why. Either way, even in the arminian system the problem is still the same. We permitted the fall, how is he not responsible? He could have stopped it? What's the difference?

 

[Secundulus]

We don't know why. Either way, even in the arminian system the problem is still the same. We permitted the fall, how is he not responsible? He could have stopped it? What's the difference?

The difference is that in one God is the cause of the fall. In the other God allowed the fall to happen.

 

[ReformedChapin]

The difference is that in one God is the cause of the fall. In the other God allowed the fall to happen.

He put the tree there he is still the first cause.

 

[CruciFixed]

He knows and designed the future, right? If he wants destruction and things like abortions and infanticide and death to happen if he wants that then why does it say
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If h e loves us so much hed give his son why does he want destruction?

 

[ReformedChapin]

He knows and designed the future, right? If he wants destruction and things like abortions and infanticide and death to happen if he wants that then why does it say
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If h e loves us so much hed give his son why does he want destruction?

Ask him...I'm not Jesus. I can only tell you what the bible says.

 

[CruciFixed]

Ok. But it is starting to sound less like love the more I think of it.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Ok. But it is starting to sound less like love the more I think of it.

Base your notion of God's love on the bible, not what you define as love.

 

[MrJim]

He knows and designed the future, right? If he wants destruction and things like abortions and infanticide and death to happen if he wants that then why does it say
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If h e loves us so much hed give his son why does he want destruction?

Well in Calvinst language "God so loved the elect that He gave is only Son..."

 

[ReformedChapin]

Well in Calvinst language "God so loved the elect that He gave is only Son..."

world = humanity

 

[Simon_Templar]

Since the fall of Adam and before the new covenant mans destiny depended on his works. We know how that turned out.

Doesn't the belief in our free will to determine our own choice as far as accepting Christ as our Saviour, make salvation into us being a co-saviour with Christ? Is the glory of salvation to be divided between the grace of Jesus and our own will?

Is God struggling as best He can, pleading and begging us to believe, but unable to accomplish His will? Or is God Sovereign and entirely capable and able to draw His chosen to be saved by regeneration of our spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit according to His pleasure and glory?

You first assertion is wrong. Man's destiny has never depended upon his works, at least not in the sense you mean the word works.

Secondly, you must believe in a very small God if he is not able to allow people free will, and still accomplish his own plans.

 

[desmalia]

He knows and designed the future, right? If he wants destruction and things like abortions and infanticide and death to happen if he wants that then why does it say
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If h e loves us so much hed give his son why does he want destruction?

First of all, don't think for a second that God is happy about the ugly things that people do in this life. The tears he sheds over such things would fill millions more oceans than exist on the earth, I'm sure.

But remember that all He has created, done, and ordained is ultimately to display His glory (there is no greater thing than that!). His love for us is a result of who He is. He does not exist in order to love us (though of course He does love us, and in immeasurable abundance). We exist in order to love and glorify Him. As believers, we can take comfort even in the worst of times because we know that ultimately all will be worked together for His glory. And even more than that, He has blessed us by His grace to be willing participants in glorifying Him. WE actually get to be partakers in the perfect, beautiful, amazing glory of Love, Himself. It's a pretty awesome and humbling thing, when you think about it. Personally, I don't feel qualified to ask God why He chose me, but not someone else. He's running the show and he knows the end game. I can't see the whole picture (yet). But I can see enough to trust that He's got it all in His hands and there is nothing more any of us could ever dream of or hope for.

 

[ReformedChapin]

You first assertion is wrong. Man's destiny has never depended upon his works, at least not in the sense you mean the word works.

I agree with this. But I don't you understood his statement. I agree with your statement not with the evaluation of JustasIam statement.

Secondly, you must believe in a very small God if he is not able to allow people free will, and still accomplish his own plans.

No, this just doesn't make any sense. So unless you throw out the most basic laws of logic 1) THE LAW OF NONE CONTRADICTION and 2) Law Of Casuality (It bet you will be familar with those based philosophy background) God somehow has to work around free will and still get people do what he wants. You are limiting God to our free will, he has to beg for us to come to him. Where in the OT does God beg? Where is the unchangeble God that choose the Isreal? And Harden the Pharo.

 

[desmalia]

Secondly, you must believe in a very small God if he is not able to allow people free will, and still accomplish his own plans.

Of course, but then what is free will, really?
Is it the freedom to make a totally unbiased decision? No. We make decisions based on nature, upbringing, experience, emotion, etc. And all of these things are perfectly ordained and designed by our Creator. So we do make our choices with presence of mind and emotion. But we certainly don't do it free of very carefully crafted influence. (See Steve's little analogy...).

 

[ReformedChapin]

Of course, but then what is free will, really?
Is it the freedom to make a totally unbiased decision? No. We make decisions based on nature, upbringing, experience, emotion, etc. And all of these things are perfectly ordained and designed by our Creator. So we do make our choices with presence of mind and emotion. But we certainly don't do it free of very carefully crafted influence. (See Steve's little analogy...).

We don't know the mode in which God controls his people. I know a basic principle that was part of RCC theology (in the past) was monilism. The most basic essence of molinism is stating that Man still has free will but there is underlying factors which causes to make certain decisions such as you pointed out; environment, emotions, experience. According to molinism God manipulates those factors so that it yeilds his desired results. This position is now held By Alvin Plantiga and William Lane Craig two prostestant apologist. I don't think this view is close to the reformed view of Compatiblism which is a view that Johnnathan Edwards Propagated. Compatiblism states that our will is compatible God's will. In other words our will is perfectly inline with God's will. So when we do something it's God directly placing our steps where he wants it and it's exactly what we want.

 

[desmalia]

We don't know the mode in which God controls his people. I know a basic principle that was part of RCC theology (in the past) was monilism. The most basic essence of molinism is stating that Man still has free will but there is underlying factors which causes to make certain decisions such as you pointed out; environment, emotions, experience. According to molinism God manipulates those factors so that it yeilds his desired results. This position is now held By Alvin Plantiga and William Lane Craig two prostestant apologist. I don't think this view is close to the reformed view of Compatiblism which is a view that Johnnathan Edwards Propagated. Compatiblism states that our will is compatible God's will. In other words our will is perfectly inline with God's will. So when we do something it's God directly placing our steps where he wants it and it's exactly what we want.

Don't disagree with you. I was trying to summarize what Sproul has tought about free will, but I just don't say it as well as he does. But yes, I'm sure there is more to it than that.

 

[CruciFixed]

But the bible defines love
1Corinthians 13:4- 7

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I did get my definition of love from the bible..