Free will

[ReformedChapin]

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.
Augustine, On Grace and Free Will

Augustine does not argue against free will. He argues against those who would postulate free will to the exclusion of grace. Specifically, he argues against the Pelagians.

In fact, he argues the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is the most biased piece of Garbage I have seen in my life. First off Augusine did argue against Palegious extreme doctrine but he also argued for a only GRACED based system

Augustine and the early church realized that we are saved by God's grace alone through his election. And his grace keeps you in the faith. Not like the current RCC belief of works based system.

"De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it" -- "Non solum enim Beus posse nostrum donavit atque adiuvat, sed etiam 'velle et operari operatur in nobis' non quia nos non volumus, aut nos non agimus, sed quia sine ipsius adiutorio nec volumus aliquid boni nec agimus."

Let us, then, understand the call by which the elect are made [elect]: [they are] not [persons] who are chosen because they have believed, but [they are persons] who are chosen so that they may believe. For even the Lord Himself made this [call] sufficiently clear when He said: 'You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. ' [COMMENT: In context, Christ was telling the Apostles He had chosen them, not that they had chosen Him. So the text had nothing at all to do with predestination to heaven or hell. The error, so common, lies in ignoring the context of the text. ] . . . This is the unshakable truth of predestination and grace. For what else does that mean, that the Apostle says, 'As He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. '[COMMENT : In context, St. Paul was speaking of predestination to full membership in the Church, not of predestination to heaven]. For surely if it was said [that they were chosen] because God foresaw that they would believe, [and] not because He Himself was going to make them believers--the Son speaks against that sort of foreknowledge, saying: 'You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. '[ See comment above on this text] . So they were chosen before the foundation of the world by that predestination by which God foreknew His own future acts: they are chosen out of the world by that vocation by which God fulfilled that which he had predestined, 'For those whom He predestined, them also He called. . . . '[COMMENT: In context, all of chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11 of Romans speak only of predestination to full membership in the Church, not of predestination to heaven]. Therefore God chose the faithful, not because they already were [faithful] but that they might be [faithful]. So by choosing, He makes them rich in faith, just as [he makes them] heirs of the kingdom." [COMMENT: Sadly, Augustine takes every bit of Scripture used above out of context, so that the texts prove nothing of what he has in mind].

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7273/augustin.htm

 

[ReformedChapin]

Other Church Faters

Nazianum (A.D 370)

To will is from God

Athanasian (A.D 350)

To believe is not ours, or in our power, but the Spirits who is in us, and abides in us.

Irenaeus (AD 180)

"Not of ourselves, but of God, is the blessing of our salvation...Man, who was before led captive, is taken out of the power of possesor, according to th mercy of God the Father, and restoring it, gives salvation to it by the Word.."

source: "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Horton pp 249.

 

[Secundulus]

The Catholic Encyclopedia is the most biased piece of Garbage I have seen in my life. First off Augusine did argue against Palegious extreme doctrine but he also argued for a only GRACED based system

I didn't quote a Catholic Enclyclopedia article. I quoted Augustine's own writing that was contained in the Catholic Encyclopedia. If you don't like me to quote from there, then how about from here?

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Or maybe this would be better.

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xix.iv.ii.html

Augustine taught the same doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches today. What he said is not even remotely similar to the fantasies later invented by vain men.

When God says, "Turn ye unto me, and I will turn unto you,"(I) one of these clauses--that which invites our return to God--evidently belongs to our will; while the other, which promises His return to us, belongs to His grace. http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

 

[Secundulus]

Other Church Faters

Nazianum (A.D 370)

To will is from God

Athanasian (A.D 350)

To believe is not ours, or in our power, but the Spirits who is in us, and abides in us.

Irenaeus (AD 180)

"Not of ourselves, but of God, is the blessing of our salvation...Man, who was before led captive, is taken out of the power of possesor, according to th mercy of God the Father, and restoring it, gives salvation to it by the Word.."

source: "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Horton pp 249.

You should actually read the Early Church Fathers instead of books written by Protestant Apologist who quote mine them out of context.

Irenaeus:
But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vi.xl.html

 

[ReformedChapin]

You should actually read the Early Church Fathers instead of books written by Protestant Apologist who quote mine them out of context.

Irenaeus:
But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vi.xl.html

Gee the quote still seems to be in context...wonder why.

 

[Secundulus]

Gee the quote still seems to be in context...wonder why.

Well, read the whole thing. It is at the link provided.

 

[Secundulus]

I do not want to seem like I am saying that Calvin got everything wrong. I have read a fair amount of his works and he got much of it right.

Where we go astray is using his works to justify a perpetual schism in contradiction to Christ's words that we be one.

Where he was correct, he was as Orthodox as any of the Church Fathers. Where he was wrong, he was as wrong as Muhammed.

Calvin is not infallible nor do I recall him even to claim being inspired.

 

[MrJim]

Whats arminian? Sorry to be ignorant.

...as you can see, it's a charged topic..

 

[MrJim]

not even close -
It is by foreknowledge God has - not some random lottery pick with His eyes closed

but I do agree that both show support & that's why top scholars & theologians continue to disagree & argue the 2 positions.

Just pointing out the Calvinst POV~~since God is no respecter of persons, and nothing in the world that a person can do will merit him being predestined, it is as a raffle...God rolls the dice, maybe you're picked and maybe not..

 

[ReformedChapin]

I didn't quote a Catholic Enclyclopedia article. I quoted Augustine's own writing that was contained in the Catholic Encyclopedia. If you don't like me to quote from there, then how about from here?

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Or maybe this would be better.

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xix.iv.ii.html

Augustine taught the same doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches today. What he said is not even remotely similar to the fantasies later invented by vain men.

When God says, "Turn ye unto me, and I will turn unto you,"(I) one of these clauses--that which invites our return to God--evidently belongs to our will; while the other, which promises His return to us, belongs to His grace. http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Go through each artical and show how Augustines definition of "Free Will" is the same as the contemporary RCC definition. I am not going to do your work for you. It is more than clear to me from several recources that Augustines Definition is Closer to the reformed definition.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I do not want to seem like I am saying that Calvin got everything wrong. I have read a fair amount of his works and he got much of it right.

Where we go astray is using his works to justify a perpetual schism in contradiction to Christ's words that we be one.

Where he was correct, he was as Orthodox as any of the Church Fathers. Where he was wrong, he was as wrong as Muhammed.

Calvin is not infallible nor do I recall him even to claim being inspired.

uh sure...

He denied trinitarian doctrine, God's soverignty, Canon of Scripture riight..

 

[ReformedChapin]

Well, read the whole thing. It is at the link provided.

Can we get to to point instead of you relying on rhetoric to try to defuse my argument?

 

[drstevej]

Where we go astray is using his works to justify a perpetual schism in contradiction to Christ's words that we be one.

Then why are't you Catholic?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Just pointing out the Calvinst POV~~since God is no respecter of persons, and nothing in the world that a person can do will merit him being predestined, it is as a raffle...God rolls the dice, maybe you're picked and maybe not..

Besides the fact that it's the Calvinist POV, how exactly is it wrong? How can God be sovering without having complete control of every single thing in this universe?

 

[MrJim]

Besides the fact that it's the Calvinist POV, how exactly is it wrong? How can God be sovering without having complete control of every single thing in this universe?

Just giving the point of view for the uninitiated...

 

[ReformedChapin]

Just giving the point of view for the uninitiated...

It was an excellent point just following through..

 

[CruciFixed]

Since God has control of everything in the universe and we do not have Free Will then why did he create Satan knowing full well what harm he'd cause to Eve then of course she was predestined to eat the forbidden fruit so how can He get angry that she'd do something He chose for her to do thus leading to the torture and murder of His only begotten son?

We know He knows whats gonna happen forever and ever but since we dont' have free will how come he just didn't force Eve to ignore the serpent? This God who doesn't give people free will or choice sounds chaotic not so much loving and kind.

 

[Secundulus]

Augustine:
The spirit of grace, therefore, causes us to have faith, in order that through faith we may, on praying for it, obtain the ability to do what we are commanded. http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Catholic Catechism
153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven".24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"25
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

 

[Secundulus]

Then why are't you Catholic?

My entire denomination is currently seeking communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[CruciFixed]

Oh yeah I forgot to add:
What kind of God creates something like the Earth and the people who live here just for the sole purpose of destruction? We're headed in the path of destruction daily. This is all so confusing to me.
It reminds me of when I am the "God" of sim city and I can do whatever I want with the people and the town and I just start putting tornadoes and UFOS out there just to get a laugh.

Or The Sims the game where you create people. I purposely set them on fire just to see them die.

Is this the kind of God we have? Because he's sovereign and in control he must also be kind of twisted?