Free Will

[Michali]

I don't believe that there is really any chance at all in life. Say, if I were the ultimate with mathematics, I could predict anything. Change, to me, is only a straight and predictable line. QM deals with the impossibly small, meaning we would have to be more precise with our calculations than we can be. Unless there was supernatural or time travel, change is completely void of free will.

God chooses whom he will to enter eternal life. We can't help or predict who goes to this acheivement. We are described as plants in a parable of Jesus'. Some of us were planted by God, some of us were planted by Satan. A sort-of predestination concept.

And I would not think it proper to pass judgement on God. After all, if he can do anything, who can stop him or prove him wrong when he can always make himself right? It is impossible to argue and win against God. He does what pleases Him. So we are glad to know that it pleases Him to bless his children.

It is written, that Jesus preached to the spirits of the dead that were before his time (I think it is in 2 Peter). He did this after his crucifiction. Its now our job as the Church to get the gospel to the people alive today. And if they never heard it? I would suppose that they would be treated the same way the pre-messianic people were.

 

[Mike Flynn]

If God is omniscient, how can theist's think they have freewill ?

Did the omniscient God know what you were going to have for breakfast yesterday one thousand years before He supposedly created you ?

If you have freewill omniscience is impossible.

Unless omniscience is akin to knowing every 'possible' outcome. If you write software that does some calculation using a good random number generator, you, as the creator of the code know all of the possible outcomes of the program. And yet, when the computer executes the code, its circuitry determines the resulting output, independent from the creator. Of course, you may have built and programmed the computer yourself...but you also gave it the ability to make choices independantly. But still, you know exactly how the final output varies depending on the choices it makes.

So God knows that I could choose from a diverse selection of other breakfast foods. But he also knows what the best selection for me would be...and what would happen to me depending on the choices I make.

Perhaps QM is analagous to a universal RND function? And the ability to consciously choose is akin to having a soul.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Hi Met,
I think you are right. It doesn't seem fair that we should be either rewarded with heaven or condemned to hell on the basis of choosing to love God or not, when there are so many factors out of our control that would stack the odds against making the 'correct' choice. Hormones and chemicals are one, and even more compelling, what if I lived and died in a time and place where Christianity had not yet arrived, say a pre-invasion Mayan or something. Say I never heard of the Christian God. Do I go to Hell for not believing in him, or am I exempt?

There is alot of debate among theologans about this, here's one take (similar to Michali's):

There are indications in the Bible that the creator puts it (somehow) on EVERYONE'S heart that we need to connect with God. And this includes people in any place, at any time in history...whether you have 'heard' of Christianity is clearly not paramount. God has a heart after everyone.

In addition, salvation is not based on good deeds, hard work, or some kind of mental self-actualisation (akin to some eastern religions), nor is it based on knowledge or study or going to Church. You don't have to say anything or perform any ritual acts in order to be saved. All you have to do, essentially, is to INVITE God to enter your heart and connect with you spiritually...coming to a realization that you are empty and incomplete without Him. You make this choice freely. Thats where, at least, the journey begins. Salvation, in part, is a process that puts you in the service of God, allowing others to be saved as God works through you. So, in a way, you are saved so that God can bless and save others through you, making the process inherently 'fair'. Of course, you also get redeemed in the process, and that redemption yields benefits HERE in THIS LIFE.. "abundant life" as discussed in the Bible. And there are great benefits for the spiritual self (that the Bible says is eternal).

One way of looking at Jesus is that He is not only the personification of God on earth, but somehow He is also THE means of connecting with God ("I am the way, the truth, and the life...no-one comes to the Lord except through me"). Some Christians use this passage as proof that you have to call yourself a Christian and jump through several other hoops in order to receive salvation. But I tend to disagree. I think Jesus basically saying that He is THE means of connecting with God. There are passages that indicate that Jesus has been available as the means of connection for all time and all people from all nations (whether they realize it or not), even though his appearance on earth occurred at a particular time and place.

So Jesus was certainly on the hearts of some of the people who wrote the books of other religions, and so there may be many truths in the pages of those texts. Indeed, there are striking theological similarities among many of the world religions today. And many of those people may have been saved or are being saved (but thats not for anyone of us to judge). At the same time I feel that only the Bible encapsulates salvation in this perfectly fair and amazing way (as far as I know), and thats why I tend to believe it and part of the reason why I call myself a Christian.

There is ALOT more theology than this BTW...this is just one version of the theology of Christian salvation (at least part of it).

 

[Mike Flynn]

I don't believe that there is really any chance at all in life. Say, if I were the ultimate with mathematics, I could predict anything. Change, to me, is only a straight and predictable line. QM deals with the impossibly small, meaning we would have to be more precise with our calculations than we can be. Unless there was supernatural or time travel, change is completely void of free will.

QM DENIES making 'precise' measurements per se. And its not a matter of semantics...precision has clearly defined limits. Heisenburg's uncertainty principle is part of the reason. And you may not 'believe' in chance. But its there, and there is a huge body of evidence supporting the random nature intrinsic to particle physics. No matter how 'ultimate' you are with mathematics, you can't eliminate the randomness and 'predict anything' as you put it. This would be a violation of the laws of physics. (Its a key element to wave-particle duality for example)

And we should be thankful for it...because if the universe was completely deterministic, with no random chance in particle physics, then everything that happens in my life, your life, and everyone elses, really is completely devoid of free will (predetermined). And, when you think about it, this makes the teachings in the Bible nothing but folly and reduces us to the status of robot.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

funny how people get stuck on one verse and not get off it .....and not use it in contextof the the book and the bible...

No freedom in salvation but freedom to get displined if not living up to God's standards

 

[franklin]

Unless omniscience is akin to knowing every 'possible' outcome.

Omniscience is more than merely knowing every "possible" outcome, it means knowing everything, as in past, as in present and as in future. If this alledged god of the bible is of the omniscience that everyone claims he is, he even knew you and I were going to be having this conversation over the internet millions of years before it ever happened. If you think you have freewill,then dont tell me that the god of the bible is omniscient or omnianything for that matter. Because if you do have freewill than omniscience does not exist.

Do you see why omniscicence is impossible?

If you write software that does some calculation using a good random number generator, you, as the creator of the code know all of the possible outcomes of the program.

Nice try, but how can you compare computer software to omniscience ?

 

[Mike Flynn]

Omniscience is more than merely knowing every "possible" outcome, it means knowing everything, as in past, as in present and as in future. If this alledged god of the bible is of the omniscience that everyone claims he is, he even knew you and I were going to be having this conversation over the internet millions of years before it ever happened. If you think you have freewill,then dont tell me that the god of the bible is omniscient or omnianything for that matter. Because if you do have freewill than omniscience does not exist.

Do you see why omniscicence is impossible?

"MERELY" knowing every "possible" outcome.....I love it!

But I get it...you are saying that if God is omniscient then He 'knows' exactly every choice I will make. Having universal knowledge boils down to 'knowing' the complete future of every quark, electron, and neutrino in the universe, from the big bang to whenever. This implies that there must, by definition, be exactly ONE and only ONE future for the universe and everything in it, right? And this, by definition, is determinism. And determinism means no free will.

Did I miss anything?

So if this is how we define omniscience...I agree with you... God is NOT omniscient as we are describing it here...and if 'everyone' claims that He is (as you have said)...then I suppose 'everyone' is wrong...heck, it wouldn't be the first time. You can hardly blame people, humans have a pretty hard time 'framing' the God concept...whatever frame you choose its always going to be a human construction. I'm not sure why its so important to come up with a God-concept anyway...

As I have tried to explain in many other postings (too many now)...quantum theory shows us that the universe is clearly NOT deterministic in nature. We have a degree of it in the macroscopic world...which dupes many of us (including people like Einstein) into believing in determinism (many still do). But despite the nay-sayers, experiment after experiment shows that RANDOM CHANCE is inter-twined inextricably into particle physics.

So when I shoot an electron at a slit, I can only describe the probability of where it will land. Perhaps 'everyone' in the omniscient camp would say "God knows EXACTLY where it will land"...so the RANDOMNESS of QM is only a result of our limited knowledge of the universe. However, this seems to be quite clearly NOT the case (if anyone reading this wants to know why I make that assertion...get a good book on the history of QM).

I believe in a God who has brought into existence a universe not as a kind of mental abstraction...like setting up a bunch of dominoes and watching them fall...just like you knew they would. But rather, he has created an existence where the universe and everything in it has the ability (to some degree) to determine its own 'story'. And so we too are free to do the same.

Actually, this thread is helping me getter a better perspective on these concepts. In fact I have been wondering how the QM idea of multiuniverses may fit in here...I'll have to get back to you on that.

Nice try, but how can you compare computer software to omniscience?

Well it's a good, simple analogy if you frame the universe the way I have indicated above...

Bottom line? I agree with you...God is NOT omniscient in the way that many have coined and framed that term. But it still leaves room to believe that God knows every possible fate, but He has chosen to create the universe and everything in it with a degree of self-determination. He has chosen, by design, to eliminate any pre-conception of what choices we make...leaving it open to us to make them freely.

You are "MERELY" pointing out a problem with the God-concept that some have adhered to.

 

[Michali]

QM DENIES making 'precise' measurements per se. And its not a matter of semantics...precision has clearly defined limits. Heisenburg's uncertainty principle is part of the reason. And you may not 'believe' in chance. But its there, and there is a huge body of evidence supporting the random nature intrinsic to particle physics. No matter how 'ultimate' you are with mathematics, you can't eliminate the randomness and 'predict anything' as you put it. This would be a violation of the laws of physics. (Its a key element to wave-particle duality for example)

And we should be thankful for it...because if the universe was completely deterministic, with no random chance in particle physics, then everything that happens in my life, your life, and everyone elses, really is completely devoid of free will (predetermined). And, when you think about it, this makes the teachings in the Bible nothing but folly and reduces us to the status of robot.

Thanks. Your statement makes sense. This was always a debate between me and a freind of mine. I'm glad that there is scientifical evidence for randomness as it does prove "free will".

 

[Michali]

Bottom line? I agree with you...God is NOT omniscient in the way that many have coined and framed that term. But it still leaves room to believe that God knows every possible fate, but He has chosen to create the universe and everything in it with a degree of self-determination. He has chosen, by design, to eliminate any pre-conception of what choices we make...leaving it open to us to make them freely.

You are "MERELY" pointing out a problem with the God-concept that some have adhered to.

God does use an "if you do this, I'll do this" type of system. He does say the word if a lot. I think he knows every path we could take, but not which we will take. By creating us with free will, he has made us "in his image" in a way. Not that he has limited himself, but he has set this ability in us somewhat equall to His own. So that there would be genuine love and real choices.

 

[Mike Flynn]

God does use an "if you do this, I'll do this" type of system. He does say the word if a lot. I think he knows every path we could take, but not which we will take. By creating us with free will, he has made us "in his image" in a way. Not that he has limited himself, but he has set this ability in us somewhat equall to His own. So that there would be genuine love and real choices.

Very insightful remarks Michali!

A universe with just the right mix of randomness (microscopic) and order (macroscopic) to allow a spiritual being the freedom to have its own creative control in the space of Creation....

hmmm

 

[franklin]

But I get it...you are saying that if God is omniscient then He 'knows' exactly every choice I will make.

If the god of the bible is what he is claimed to be, omniscient, then yes, he knows every choice you will ever make. Would you accept anything less than an omniscient deity?

Having universal knowledge boils down to 'knowing' the complete future of every quark, electron, and neutrino in the universe, from the big bang to whenever.

Not only that but omniscience knows what will happen before it ever happens.

This implies that there must, by definition, be exactly ONE and only ONE future for the universe and everything in it, right? And this, by definition, is determinism. And determinism means no free will.

If you say so. Determinism, omniscience, equals no freewill. Everything has already happened. What do you think?

Did I miss anything?

So far, so good, we are moving right along here.

So if this is how we define omniscience...I agree with you... God is NOT omniscient as we are describing it here...and if 'everyone' claims that He is (as you have said)...then I suppose 'everyone' is wrong...heck, it wouldn't be the first time. You can hardly blame people, humans have a pretty hard time 'framing' the God concept...whatever frame you choose its always going to be a human construction. I'm not sure why its so important to come up with a God-concept anyway...

Well, it seems to me that God is the topic here and whether this God qualifies for omniscience or not, wouldn't you agree? According to the creation account of the first human couple, do you view him as failing in his omniscience ? I find that omniscience fails in that story miserably. What do you think ?

As I have tried to explain in many other postings (too many now)...quantum theory shows us that the universe is clearly NOT deterministic in nature. We have a degree of it in the macroscopic world...which dupes many of us (including people like Einstein) into believing in determinism (many still do). But despite the nay-sayers, experiment after experiment shows that RANDOM CHANCE is inter-twined inextricably into particle physics.

To be honest, I really don't know how to comment on this. But I think you're on to something here.

So when I shoot an electron at a slit, I can only describe the probability of where it will land. Perhaps 'everyone' in the omniscient camp would say "God knows EXACTLY where it will land"...

Yeah I guess the omniscient camp would say that. If omniscience is real, then yes, he would know exactly where it will land.

I believe in a God who has brought into existence a universe not as a kind of mental abstraction...like setting up a bunch of dominoes and watching them fall...just like you knew they would. But rather, he has created an existence where the universe and everything in it has the ability (to some degree) to determine its own 'story'. And so we too are free to do the same.

At the same time he would still have to know the outcome otherwise he is not omniscient. What theist would want anything less than omniscience?

Bottom line? I agree with you...God is NOT omniscient in the way that many have coined and framed that term. But it still leaves room to believe that God knows every possible fate, but He has chosen to create the universe and everything in it with a degree of self-determination. He has chosen, by design, to eliminate any pre-conception of what choices we make...leaving it open to us to make them freely.

Then omniscience does not exist. If omniscience does exist, then there is no free choice.

You are "MERELY" pointing out a problem with the God-concept that some have adhered to.

The common error with the theistic theory that God is all knowing but gives his creation freewill contradicts omniscience. They cannot have it both ways. Either God is omniscient or he is not.

I believe omniscience is impossible.

 

[Michali]

Though God may be omniscient, we know he is also constant. When something happens, he will do what is perfect in all situations. Though he knows the certain future, he will always act perfect according to the future. His knowledge of the future does not keep him from acting in a perfect manner in the present. He may know exactly what path you will take, but because we have free will, he will let our will be truly free by acting in the present toward us.

In simpler terms: "If you repent, I will save you." says God. Because He is omniscient, He knows wether or not you will repent. But he will treat you in the present so it will be your fault if you do not repent. It is fair and it is free will.

 

[Mike Flynn]

If the god of the bible is what he is claimed to be, omniscient, then yes, he knows every choice you will ever make. Would you accept anything less than an omniscient deity?

Yes I would...thats my whole point. I know there are many that would disagree with me, but my answer is YES. And at the risk of being repetitive, here's how I would construct the concept based on what (little) I know of theology and physics:

God creates the space and machinery of the universe (the laws of physics and space-time, if you like). Built into the machinery is an explicit element of self-determination. Perhaps we have had a peek at it with what we've seen of QM and the intrisic element of random chance. So I believe NOT EVEN GOD HIMSELF 'KNOWS' WHERE THE ELECTRON WILL 'LAND' in our aforementioned QM experiment. Otherwise it would be neither random nor self-determined. And yet, as I said, the random element is consistently there and easily demonstrated.

So the universe itself writes its own story, so to speak. But its not COMPLETELY random and indeterminate, a sense of order and cause is also carefully woven in (as seen in the likes of cosmology and general relativity). This is tantamount to having self-determination within a set of specified rules. The element of time is critical, providing a mechanism for evolution, change, and events themselves to transpire....for the story to be written, as it were.

The point: God has created a neutral, separate and independant space from himself, and He does NOT know how the story will unfold explicitly. Because, as you have quite clearly stated, this would eliminate self-determination. Not that this denies God's AUTHORITY as an entity, but rather, it indicates that he has chosen to EXTRACT some of that authority from himself, and weave it into the stuff of the universe (to some degree at least). Its simply how God has decided to construct the universe that we have.

The Bible says we are created in the 'image' of God. I think that this means that we have also been given our own authority to be self-determined, creative, conscious beings. We are free to write our own stories and develop and evolve within an ordered framework of God's creation. Our own power to 'create' is evident in our language, culture, and intellectual constructions....a pale reflection of the mind of the being who created the universe itself.

So have we made God a little less 'big and powerful' here? Maybe. Perhaps its the price of giving us our own authority to self-determine. But it seems quite clear that God has chosen to RELINQUISH this kind of authority over this existence. Not that He can't be a player, enter the game and give a little hint here or a little nudge there...like a good father would help a confused child....never in order to remove the authority of the child over his own ability to self-determine, just to help him become content and mature. And a good father still has authority...knowing unequivocally whats best for the child. The best thing the child could do, in this case, is to recognize the greater authority of the father and invite the father to act as a guide....Some Christians refer to this as being 'born again' I think. Anyway, I think thats why the 'good father' analogy is used so often in the Bible.

What theist would want anything less than omniscience?

Me, for one. It doesn't matter much to me that our characterization of an 'omniscient' God is flawed. My question is, who says that this construction of omniscience is a pre-requisite for God? Nothing I have said here is against any Biblical theology I have ever read.

So I believe that God does not 'know' explicitly what I will do next. But he knows all consequences. And more than anything, I think he wants us to make good choices (but not make them for us). If that makes him 'less' than omniscient, thats fine with me. How can anyone seriously argue that in order to believe in God, you MUST also believe in this kind of absolute omniscience?

 

[Michali]

Then again, Mike might be right. God has the potential to do anything, but not everything occurs. That is because He limits His actions. This is the trait of a being. He also chooses what not to see in the future, as he chooses to completely forget our sins. He has the ability to control omni-anything, which is also why the infinite universe is stable.

 

[Mike Flynn]

I'm not 'ending' the thread here...I just wanted to add something:

Thank you to David Gould and franklin for bringing up very insightful points about free will and omniscience. I have found this thread very thought provoking philosophically....it has helped me meld my background in theoretical physics with philosophy and faith...not an easy thing to do. I think I've squeezed everything I can on this topic out of my brain...so I will leave this thread with this thought:

If your body and brain are simply a conglomeration of quantum particles...a purely physical construction, then I believe David Gould is correct: the current physics tells us that we have NO FREE WILL since any event (including brain events) can be categorized as either caused or random (or elements of both). And neither category allows for free will.

So, despite this, if we decide to take free will as a 'given' anyway since it seems to be a REAL, visceral, run-of-the mill part of our everyday experience, then to me, this implies that our brain chemistry must have some kind of independant control that exists outside the causal (or material) framework. A control that is completely independant of cause or randomness...in short, a pure and independant force of 'will'. I believe that this may provide some insight on what theists would call the 'soul'...a free and independant source of will outside the universe of particle physics, but somehow intrinsically connected to it with our brains acting as an interface.

I know...its PURE speculation...and perhaps it defies scientic proof since it does not preclude QM. Nevertheless...Its an interesting idea.

 

[Michali]

It is my belief that the spiritual is extra-dimensional. That there really exists life in the higher dimensions. The manipulative possibilities of an extra-dimensional-influencing being could easily control anything of a lower sensory. What may appear as "magic" to us, may well be interference from another unseen plane of existence. (I do believe that God is above all of this, but spiritual "matter" may be our souls, spirits, angels, demons, and miracles.)

 

[Washington]

Mike.

If I am not mistaken, the unpredictability you speak of is a consequence of OUR inability to determine the effect from the cause, and not the inherent nature of the event. When you start talking about events at the subatomic level, the events have always averaged out to the point where their construction of a macroscopic effect is always the same. Given a quadrillion subatomic events that go into forming an atomic structure, the structure is not is not affected by the miniscule variations in balance from one moment to another. So events of cause and effect on a molecular level, say, are not affected by the "random" differences in balance on a subatomic level. The differences average out not only among partner events, but also with time.

Heisenberg's uncertainty only addresses what WE can and cannot do. NOT with what can and cannot be. Just because we cannot determine position and momentum at the same time does not mean that the two do not co-exist for a particle. Which means that cause and effect are still alive and well, even if we can never pin them down.

The world of the subatomic MAY be random, but such randomness has no consequence on macroscopic world: All that happens in the world on our level has had causes.

 

[ironchef182]

I'm a new christian and am not really sure if this is biblically sound, but heres my take on the topic of free will. My example might sound a bit grade school but here it goes. I believe that God created us with free will because it would truly test who wanted to serve him. THink of it this way, If you had the power to control people's minds, and you wanted a person to be your friend, all you would have to do is simply use your power and you have a new friend. But would this be satisfiying to you? It probably wouldn't, because that person didn't choose on their own to side with you. My guess is that it would be more satisfying for God to have people worship him, who were truly seeking him, not just forced. This is might answer why he allowed other religions. Sorry again if this isn't biblically sound, please help me out if I made a mistake or if I misunderstanding something.

 

[Jet Black]

And we should be thankful for it...because if the universe was completely deterministic, with no random chance in particle physics, then everything that happens in my life, your life, and everyone elses, really is completely devoid of free will (predetermined). And, when you think about it, this makes the teachings in the Bible nothing but folly and reduces us to the status of robot.

sorry? just because something is not predetermined does not mean that there is free will. the outcome is not certain, I will grant you that, but even wih QM in the fold, all that does is add a glorified random number generator to the system. In order for there to be free will, one would need to control the outcome, and in none of the musings so far have I seen a control system that gives anything other than a set of weighted choices with some inherent randomness to it.

 

[Jet Black]

Would you accept anything less than an omniscient deity?

An Omnipotent god. The very best there is - When you absolutely, positively have to rule every sucker in the world. Accept no substitutes.