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Free Will

Aradia

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Irrelevant, he would still be temporal. God would necessarily have to exist, even though he exists "outside" of our own concept of life/existence. God is necessarily temporal, even though his measure of time is different.
(snip)
I don't see the relevancy of that. Time is not exclusive to our universe in an abstract concept of action and event.

Ah, but it _is_ relevant. Let us go back to the OP:

cairaiii said:
If God is all knowing and is not bound by time (his creation) than he knows the outcome of all events past, present, and future. From the moment of creation he knew that Adam would sin, that he would have to send his son to die on a cross, and even what everyone of us will eat for breakfast tomorrow, and how we will die.

Based on the conclusion (he knows the outcome of all events past, present, and future), which pertains solely to his creation/our universe, the unstated assumption in the premise is that he is not bound by _our_ time/temporality. The question is not whether he is bound by any sort of temporality, but whether he is bound by _our_ temporality. I was hoping that my previous post (#10) would've yielded some working definitions to help clarify things. But obviously, nothing came of it, so I'm clarifying it myself.

The question is not whether god is bound by time as a general concept, but whether he is bound by time as it applies to our plane of existence.
 
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Aradia

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The brain receives information about the environment and reacts to it by triggering muscles and releasing chemicals, we see physical effects altering the way it does this in predictable ways. Where is the room for freewill?

Excellent response. Perfectly vague, yet very authoritative sounding. You do realise that we don't actually understand how the brain works, right? Read up on it a bit more.

I really don't see any reason to believe in freewill, it is purported to be some kind of X-factor acting between input and choice for which we are responsible.

So you believe the universe is entirely deterministic?
 
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Asimov

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The question is not whether god is bound by time as a general concept, but whether he is bound by time as it applies to our plane of existence.

I understand where you're coming from. Much like a book has it's own concept of temporality, and the writer exists in the past, present and future of that book.
 
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Hnefi

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Ok, I'm following you thus far...
...and now you've lost me. Are you a computer programmer? Could you explain how, in a computer, randomness can be both not truly random and not deterministic?
Yes, I'm a programmer, and sure, I can explain. I'll use two examples - the first is very different from how humans work but easy to understand while the other is similar to how humans work but slightly trickier.

Imagine a computer that's programmed to play 5 in a row - the game similar to tic-tac-toe but where you have a much larger board and you need five markers in a row to win.

The most rudimentary way to implement such a program is to let the computer check the board for existing rows - 2 in a row, 3 in a row and 4 in a row. At the end of each such row, it will check if there is an empty space. If so, it will set an "importance factor" on that square 2 for 2 in a row, 3 for 3 in a row etc. Then it will look for more rows until all are found.

Then it's time for the computer to place a marker. It will have a number of empty spaces to choose from and each space will have an importance factor. It will always choose the square with the highest importance factor. However, it is very likely that several squares have the same importance factor and that this factor is the highest on the board. How to choose? Well, the easiest way is to choose one of the most important squares at random. Voila - determism and randomness in one process. Obviously, one can balance this differently - the computer might choose between the squares that are most important and those that are almost as important. Then you get more randomness and less determinism.


Another, more sophisticated mechanism is the neural network. I'll describe the simplest artificial neural network we can construct - the perceptron. This is a truly simple single-layered "network" that can't actually achieve much, but the power of neural networks is that you can add as many layers as you want and as you do so, the processing power of the net increases.

The perceptron is a simple beast. It is a data structure with x number of binary inputs and one binary output. Each input has an associated weight, w(x) between 0 and 1 and the perceptron has an internal threshold value T between 0 and 1. Both the weights and the threshold are floating or fixed point numbers. They are also variable.

When input is recieved, it is put through a formula that calculates the sum of all inputs multiplied by their weight - that is, the sum of x*w(x) for every x. If this number is greater than T, the perceptron output is set to 1. Otherwise, output is set to 0.

Now comes the nifty part: since both w(x) and T are variable, one can train this perceptron. If you start by giving all w(x) and T random values, you'll get something that's probably useless. But you may want a perceptron that works as an AND function for 2 inputs. If so, you give it two inputs - x1 and x2 - and run it parallel to a normal AND function. If the perceptron does not give the same output as the AND function, you change w(x1), w(x2) or T - or all of them - or some of them. The change is done automatically according to a simple mathematical formula, usually a semi-random function that represents a sigmoid curve.

Eventually (usually rather quickly since the system is so simple) the perceptron will get closer and closer to a true AND function and eventually mimic one perfectly. The perceptron has then been trained. A typical AND-perceptron will have w(x1) = w(x2) = 0.5 and T = 0.75. If you had trained it for OR instead, it might look like w(x1) = w(x2) = 1, T = 0.5.

I hope this explanation was easy to understand, even if it was a bit long winded.

This currently seems to be the only usable mechanism to describe how the universe works. However, I'm not entirely convinced that free will couldn't be described by such a mechanism. One word in particular seems to stick out: rationality. What is rationality?
Rationality is simply the ability to make appropriate choices. That is, to take a number of circumstances into account and perform an action that according to those circumstances are beneficial to oneself (what is beneficial is, of course, subjective).

I have heard a few claim that free will is indeed a mix between determinism and randomness. I can live with such a definition and I accept that it is possible - even probable - that it accurately describes our selves and our universe. However, it means that the concept of free will is reduced to simple, natural type of system that is really quite unremarkable. I'm fine with that too, but most people seem not to be, particularily those who maintain that free will is somehow supernatural.
 
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Aradia

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I understand where you're coming from. Much like a book has it's own concept of temporality, and the writer exists in the past, present and future of that book.

Exactly! The temporality of the writer is of no concern to the characters in the book; when they speak of the Divine Writer being beyond time, they mean he's outside of the book and the book's plotline. =)
 
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Aradia

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(snip)However, it is very likely that several squares have the same importance factor and that this factor is the highest on the board. How to choose? Well, the easiest way is to choose one of the most important squares at random. Voila - determism and randomness in one process.

Still confused. How are you getting the randomness? Are you using a RNG like a mersenne twister that's only statistically random, or are you using something like the blum blum shub? Even a CSRNG is deterministic, though essentially unpredictable because of the underlying difficulty in having perfect knowledge of the system. And then, of course, there's seed selection. Are you choosing the seed from pseudo-random interrupts? Or perhaps you've built a lava lamp interface for your computer to get some natural entropy into the system in order to seed a CSRNG? I'm afraid that the very notion of true randomness is incompatible with computers.

I should've mentioned that I've been programming for 15+ years, including work on monte carlo simulations and cryptography.

I have heard a few claim that free will is indeed a mix between determinism and randomness. I can live with such a definition and I accept that it is possible - even probable - that it accurately describes our selves and our universe. However, it means that the concept of free will is reduced to simple, natural type of system that is really quite unremarkable. I'm fine with that too, but most people seem not to be, particularily those who maintain that free will is somehow supernatural.

Being remarkable is somewhat subjective. I find quite a few things to be both remarkable and unremarkable. It's all in one's point of view.
 
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Hnefi

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Still confused. How are you getting the randomness? Are you using a RNG like a mersenne twister that's only statistically random, or are you using something like the blum blum shub? Even a CSRNG is deterministic, though essentially unpredictable because of the underlying difficulty in having perfect knowledge of the system. And then, of course, there's seed selection. Are you choosing the seed from pseudo-random interrupts? Or perhaps you've built a lava lamp interface for your computer to get some natural entropy into the system in order to seed a CSRNG? I'm afraid that the very notion of true randomness is incompatible with computers.
I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely. From a philosophical point of view, it is irrelevant that the random number generators are actually deterministic because this is just an analogy. The purpose was to demonstrate how randomness and determinism can work together in a system to produce results similar to those we see in nature. The functionality of the system would not be affected if we introduced a true random number generator and the philosophical issue is not affected.

My examples were not meant to demonstrate that true randomness actually does exist, because AFAIK there is no consensus on that point yet. What I wanted to show was that the possibility of true randomness fits well with our observations of the world around us.

I should've mentioned that I've been programming for 15+ years, including work on monte carlo simulations and cryptography.
Yes you should. That would have saved me a lengthy explanation.

Being remarkable is somewhat subjective. I find quite a few things to be both remarkable and unremarkable. It's all in one's point of view.
True, which is why you have to interpret the term "unremarkable" in the given context. Many people seem to use free will as some sort of mystical, unexplainable supernatural thing that only humans can do because it was given to us by God. The definition of free will I find unremarkable does not fit those characteristics. Indeed, such a definition of free will is no more remarkable than a very rudimentary 5 in a row computer player. That's unremarkable.
 
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Asimov

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Exactly! The temporality of the writer is of no concern to the characters in the book; when they speak of the Divine Writer being beyond time, they mean he's outside of the book and the book's plotline. =)

Characters in a book don't have free will. :)
 
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DailyBlessings

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Unfortunately, it's irrelevant if you don't see it as a problem, or the OPer. I'm presenting it as a problem, I have indicated my reasons for stating it as such and all you do is say "I don't see it as a problem".
And I'm trying to solve it within the context of your problem, though you have not yet explained it very clearly.

You're the one who responded to me, so I have in no way incorrectly characterized your position. If you contend that God is a temporal being, then why are we having this argument. If you contend that God is atemporal, then I have no mischaracterized your position.
I was referring specifically to your comment that I was making a special case for God. I'm not. I don't think describing something as "in" or "out" of time is a meaningful distinction. Time is a perception, not a physically existent entity. You keep speaking about time as though it is a sea that we are swimming in- it isn't, because it does not even exist in and of itself, but is a way that our brain organizes different events. From our perspective, time is unilineal, but I see no reason why God would be bound to the same type of perception (or how it would impinge on free will if she did not).

It's essentially likening it to saying that God is outside of existence, yet still exists and then wondering why I'm raising an objection to that.
It's a poor metaphor, but I think it means "out" as in "not constrained by", not "physically outside of".

Irrelevant, temporality is an environment of events.
Again with the spatial metaphors: Time is not a place.
Time is the measure between those events.
If it is only a measure, then why do you object to the concept of differing perceptions of the same? Time obviously is not the same measure between events in all situations. A person looking out from a black hole, and someone looking in, are perceiving time in extremely different ways (well, they would if neither were dead, anyway).
I'm not talking about perception or directionality, so this statement is irrelevant.
You seem to be saying that we are all at point C in time, so if God acts, God must also act at point C in time (and , like us, can perceive point B but not perceive point D). Such a claim implies both position and direction to time. If this is not your claim, please clarify.
Except that any specific dimensionality isn't necessary, temporality is, much like existence.
A number of physicists do consider time to be a dimension of existence, much like the others. Do you disagree with this, and why?

If God acts, then time is not an irrelevant question to God.
Well, not exactly, but the human perception of time very well might be.

Characters in a book don't have free will. :)
They do, in the context of the book.
 
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T

Tenka

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Aradia said:
Excellent response. Perfectly vague, yet very authoritative sounding. You do realise that we don't actually understand how the brain works, right? Read up on it a bit more.
So what do you want Aradia? I explain in simple terms how the thought process and apparent choices could infact be deterministic.
Can you find anyone willing to explain anything about how freewill functions? All I ever see is 'you don't know everything you can't prove you don't have it' Because what freewill is, is a religious legalism.
So you believe the universe is entirely deterministic?
I don't know, if we were able to begin the universe again from the exact state this one began I can't be certain if we would end up exactly where we are now. The changes would of course be the result of true random events which may or may not occur.
But random isn't freewill anyway.
 
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ExistencePrecedesEssence

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Life is governed by complete luck...i could be born a starving etheopian or to a rich american family. Every decision you make alters your life, and if you change one of those decision it could change the exemplification and personification of your life entirely from what it is now.
 
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Tenka

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Life is governed by complete luck...i could be born a starving etheopian or to a rich american family.
Really? How would your mother and father's combined egg and sperm get inside the fertile womb of an Ethiopian woman?
rolleyes.gif
 
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Aradia

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I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely. From a philosophical point of view, it is irrelevant that the random number generators are actually deterministic because this is just an analogy. The purpose was to demonstrate how randomness and determinism can work together in a system to produce results similar to those we see in nature. The functionality of the system would not be affected if we introduced a true random number generator and the philosophical issue is not affected.

Except that you haven't demonstrated how they can work together in a system. A CSRNG is still deterministic, so it's determinism and determinism, not determinism and randomness. If you don't want people talking about free will as nothing more than a vague notion, don't talk about randomness as a vague notion. How do you introduce a true random number generator into a computer? That is the entire point.

My examples were not meant to demonstrate that true randomness actually does exist, because AFAIK there is no consensus on that point yet. What I wanted to show was that the possibility of true randomness fits well with our observations of the world around us.

There is a fair amount of concensus, but that's for later in the conversation, if it ever reaches such a point.
 
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ExistencePrecedesEssence

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Really? How would your mother and father's combined egg and sperm get inside the fertile womb of an Ethiopian woman?
rolleyes.gif
Luck, the concept that gives personality or the concept of what makes a person, the "I" of my consciousness is governed by random luck who knows who could of had the consciousness with my concepts and personas if i wasnt born.
 
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Asimov

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This is true, but the analogy only extended to the concept of god being outside of time, not free will per se. ;)

I don't think so. In any idea of a future that hasn't happened (to us) but has happened for any third party observer, the future is as much a fact as the past is. You can't change the past.
 
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Hnefi

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Except that you haven't demonstrated how they can work together in a system. A CSRNG is still deterministic, so it's determinism and determinism, not determinism and randomness. If you don't want people talking about free will as nothing more than a vague notion, don't talk about randomness as a vague notion. How do you introduce a true random number generator into a computer? That is the entire point.
No, that is not the point, which you again have missed. You need to look at this from a philosophical standpoint, not a technical one.

Consider the computer program to be system A. Our universe as a whole is system B. Obviously, system A is part of system B. An agent in system B can look at the random number generator and conclude that it is deterministic. Since A is part of B, this is still true in A from a technical POV.

But philosophically, we can consider system A to be separate from system B. And in such a case, there is no way to determine what the next number in the pseudorandom sequence will be (assuming we've put the RNG in a separate process). Therefore, from a philosophical POV, we can point at the system and say that it is partly deterministic, partly random.

I'm also NOT working with randomness as a vague notion. Indeed, the definition I use is very precise and self-evident (or so I thought):
"An event E at time t=0 is random in regards to a system S if and only if E has some relation to S and for every other event O that occurs at any time t<0 and has some relation to S, there is no relationship between E and O." I typed that from memory, so there may be a flaw somewhere. Feel free to point it out.

Obviously, the above definition does not fit our real-world implementations of RNG's if we take our whole universe (or even the entire computer) into consideration, but it does fit if we only take a particular algorithm into consideration. It's called building a model. I'm sure you're familiar with the technique.

Therefore, when considering the model I originally described, the description of being partly random, partly deterministic fits. I know it's not possible to implement in real life, but that is inconsequential to the discussion at hand. We are, after all, not dealing with implementations here, but abstracts.
 
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elman

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Irrelevant, he would still be temporal. God would necessarily have to exist, even though he exists "outside" of our own concept of life/existence. God is necessarily temporal, even though his measure of time is different.
What is your defintion of temporal again?
 
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