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No I would say they are all happening at once in His eternal present moment, no past, no future from His position, just the eternal moment.
You realise then, that the implications of “eternal moment” and the being eternal/beyond time is that all events are ‘static’. Quite an odd concept, I know, I had to get my head around it, as someone with great patience explained it to me over a period of time as I grew to understand it, but once grasped it brings great clarity.
Remember, God is omniscient, and immutable. He cannot be wrong, nor change, nor be subject to time. Therefore his knowledge is perfect. His perception of events is perfect, and because he does not experience time (a process of moving and being subject to it) – nothing moves. For God one moment does not flow into another, but is an infinity of photos, captures of reality.
I think God can experience anything He wishes. I agree He is unchangeable which is part of being not subject to time. Time always means chang.
It means that God can perceive a tackle in football as a moment, he can perceive the outcome equally and in the same way, perceive the result of the game in the same way, and all of the creatures that used to inhabit the area prior to the football stadium being built.
These events do not, because of his transcendence, have any chronological order – and it would therefore be a human way of interpreting this immense perception to put it into a linear timeline.
That sounds correct although we humans are incapable of understanding that.
As in, it would be easier to comprehend, plus it would be more fitting with our perception of reality to see this moment as the present, and all that have gone before as “before”. (See, it even creeps into the language!) But, in (God’s) reality, all of these events are there, and are existent SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Therefore, God knows ALL events.
Yet, to us, time travels in forwards, we change, and we move along with time.
Therefore, let me ask you: - are we not merely experiencing the set of photos that God has perceived and known before/after/outside/beyond of time?
Sounds good.
Elman:
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Omnipotence includes the ability to delegate power and therefore results of this can occur that is not in line with his will.
BUT. Can you see the flaw in this argument?
It seems logical, and I understand entirely why you say that, but if we unpick the logical implications of that statement, then it boils down to,
“An all-powerful being can make his creation do things which he does not want them to do”.
No that is not what it boils down to. An all powerful being can give His creation the power to do what the Creator does not want them to do. When they choose to do that it is them choosing to do that and not the Creator forcing them to do that.
Which is, I fear, essentially senseless.
Here it is important for me to explain why I disagree with you on that matter.
I disagree with you because for me, God can either COMMAND things, or God can ORDAIN them.
In layman’s terms – God either makes things happen or he lets them happen.
There is nothing outside of that.
I agree and when we choose to do something against His will, He is allowing us to do that.
Why? How is that possible?
An all powerful being has the power to choose to not use His power. What is difficult about that?
Well – An omnipotent being has all the power. There can be no power outside of the being’s power. It would be like saying that there can be anything outside of infinity. If there was, the infinite wouldn’t be, it would be finite. A finite amount to an infinite amount is infinitesimal.
That may be logical with infinnity, but God or any entiy being all powerful would include and not exclude the power to delegate power.
If we do the same for God’s power, any power other than God’s is effectively made infinitesimal by God’s omnipotence.
I don't know if I understand that, but I don't agree that God delegating some power to a Creation makes God less than all powerful. The power of the Creation still came from God and God can reclaim it anytime He wishes. That leaves Him still all powerful.
However, if you discard what I have said and were to say“Omnipotence includes the ability to delegate power, and therefore results of this can occur that is not in line with his will.”
Then are you saying that God is not omnipotent anymore?
I don't think so.
If God is still omnipotent though, he could stop that which is against his will and make everything in line with his will, no?
Yes but being omnipotent God can also choose to not stop what is being done that He does not like.
Remember, you can take a thousand away from infinity, but it’s still infinity.
Perhaps, but God delegating power does not make Him less powerful.
God’s power knows no limits – therefore no matter how much power God delegates, he still has an infinite amount and can never be overcome.
Right that was what I was trying to say.
AND – if none of that was convincing – I have to ask you…
Why did God delegate the power in the first place if it resulted in things which went against his will?
Because when it was chosen within His will, it was pleasing to Him and it gave Him a creation that was loveable and which could respond to His love.
AH! Stop there!
Remember… God’s omniscient AND eternal AND immutable.
God MUST have known the consequences of delegating power
Or
God didn’t know – therefore isn’t omniscient
Or
God knew afterwards – therefore God isn’t immutable. Nor is he eternal (would have seen ‘future’ consequences).
May I remind you of the things we have agreed on so far:
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Phsyxx:
Therefore, God must KNOW all events.
Elman:
I agree.
Phsyxx:
Therefore, this knowledge CANNOT BE CHANGED. (Immutable)
Elman:
I agree.
Plus:
“I would say God is not subject to time. “
Now – knowing that the only way we can overcome this flaw is for us to do one of two things:
1) Reject God’s omnipotence (God is not omnipotent)
2) Reject the idea that there are beings/actions/events that do not sit in line with God’s will.
I don't see the flaw. God is omnipotent and there are beings that do things that God does not like.
It is impossible for us to do anything other than the two above stated options – unless we want to logically contradict ourselves, thereby invalidating the beliefs/arguments we have been holding/expressing.
Why?
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We are correct and it is not an illusion.
May I ask you, what exactly is the difference between illusion and reality?
(making reference to The Matrix)
I don't know what the Matrix is. Illusion is when my perception of reality is flawed. Of course none of our perceptions are without flaws so everything is in some sense illusion, so we get to talking about degrees. To what degree is our perception accurate?
Elman:
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“I don't believe the theists who say God controls every detail and therefore God is fooling you into thinking it is your choice but it is really Him doing it.”
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“For someone to tell me I am unable to make these choices or that what appears to be choices for me is me being fooled”
I see you’ve found a nice piece of middle-ground there. (Sorry, it seems I’ve misconstrued the last part of your post, but I’m sure you can remember the whole of it, so you’ll know I’m referring to the ‘I don’t believe Atheists who tell me I’m controlled by DNA”
Erm…..so it seems that ……well….may I ask you this question?
What if your Genetic-makeup was such that you, as an organism, would be unwilling to accept the concept of determinism?
Then reality would not be as it appears. My question is why should I believe that to be true?
I think! Maybe the person who brought it up..."can explain", please and thank you! hannah 
