Free Will

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

Hehe. First you want to conclude responsibility from choice, now you talk about responsibility for making a choice.
"My or someone else´s" is a false dichotomy. I am questioning your concept of "responsibility" altogether. But so far I have to make assumptions, because you haven´t provided any definition for the keyterms of your concept: "choice", "responsibility", "I".

"The question, however - and independently how many layers you add to "thinking about choosing to choose to choose..." is: Is the way you think about it chosen or is it determined?"

Well, if you can´t think further you have no basis for your concept of choice.


For the last time: We are discussing whether there is choice or not. Simply using it for a premise doesn´t do the trick.

But I am doubting that there is a choice, in the first place.
Please clarify what exactly "is your responsibility" means. I have never really understood that term.



I am asking what "I" means when you say "I make a choice".



Such circularity makes me all dizzy.

So the thinking controls the choice. Do I control my thinking? What is the "I" that controls my thinking?





Sorry, I don´t seem to understand this sentence. If it is important, would you be so kind and reword it for me?



How does that logically follow, and, first of all, what does "responsibility" mean and imply?


Yet the awareness of one´s own thinking doesn´t consitute any control.

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[quatona]

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Am I right in assuming that this is to tell me that something about our discussion frustrated you?

Ok, let´s take a different approach.
Your abstract concepts "choice" and "responsibility" seem to play an important role in your world view, and you offer them to me as valuable, helpful tools. From the effort you put in this I am assuming that you think using and applying them makes a difference.
I, on the other hand, haven´t used those terms in years if not decades (except when discussing their concepts with others, of course) and don´t seem to have any need whatsoever for them. I can´t think of any concept labeled with these terms that is of any use or relevance to me.
I do understand why theists need their concepts of "freewill" and "responsibility": They are necessary for justifying their creator-gods´ judgement of his creatures. I do however not understand what they might help an atheist with.

Now, here is a simple request:
Please give me an idea why I would want to say "I chose to drink a cup of coffee" or "I am responsible for having drunk a cup of coffee" rather than simply "I drank a cup of coffee"?

 

[traversinginfinity]

I think with me the difference is how I think of "supernatural". I answered B, because I do not believe in the supernatural in the sense that there are things that happen outside of natural laws. I just think our understanding of "natural" is very limited, but everything that has existence in reality is natural.

It seems to me that the existence of anything supernatural is intrinsically impossible, because everything that currently exists in the universe is natural, and in order for anything else to exist it would have to come from basically nowhere, which is impossible. So that's why I answered B instead of A. I believe there may be other factors that influence our actions and decisions other than just our physical minds, but I wouldn't call those factors "supernatural".

 

[elman]

I think with me the difference is how I think of "supernatural". I answered B, because I do not believe in the supernatural in the sense that there are things that happen outside of natural laws. I just think our understanding of "natural" is very limited, but everything that has existence in reality is natural.

It seems to me that the existence of anything supernatural is intrinsically impossible, because everything that currently exists in the universe is natural, and in order for anything else to exist it would have to come from basically nowhere, which is impossible. So that's why I answered B instead of A. I believe there may be other factors that influence our actions and decisions other than just our physical minds, but I wouldn't call those factors "supernatural".

In order for something to exist that is not part of our physical universe, why would it have to come from no where? Why would it be impossible for there to be other universes or other realms of reality than the one we experience?

 

[Blackguard_]

I can´t think of any concept labeled with these terms that is of any use or relevance to me.

Ethics/Morality?

 

[quatona]

Ethics/Morality?

No.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

<3

 

[Blackguard_]

No.

I suppose you're right, if you see the thoughts/actions as right/wrong regardless of whether they were 'freely' done or not.

They are necessary for justifying their creator-gods´ judgement of his creatures. I do however not understand what they might help an atheist with.

Are all judges of actions cosmic?

 

[quatona]

I suppose you're right, if you see the thoughts/actions as right/wrong regardless of whether they were 'freely' done or not.

I would hesitate to speak of "right/wrong" (in order to avoid being misunderstood as objectivists).
"Ethics" to me means "how I would like persons to interact", and whether their actions are "free" or not does not matter for these ideas.

Are all judges of actions cosmic?

If you ask me, the purpose of inventing a cosmic judge was exactly to teach people that judging others is not a good idea for us. Wrapped in the message "there is a cosmic judge who will take care of it" it was easier to swallow.

 

[hybrid]

.

we have freewill
and we have no choice about it.

in exercising freewill,
choose love and truth

otherwise..
surrender to
and accept
what is

.

 

[Quietuss]

I once asked myself what my favorite color is. I responded with blue, but I'm not sure why. ^.-