Free Will

[KCDAD]

It's hard to have discussions with people that have believed for so long in determinism. It's like the idea that this belief might've been held incorrectly for so long is too uncomfortable for them to consider. As a result I frequently see points ignored, arguments misrepresented, red herrings and then asserting ad nauseum "we do too lack free will".

 

[Shane Roach]

Well, the really silly thing to me is the whole reason to object to free will seems to be to avoid the "supernatural" because of all the observable phenomena we have been able to study in detail. The same system of senses are what give me, at least, the sense that I make choices. So if they are to be trusted at all, I guess I have to say I have free will.

I love, "Show me a mind outside of a brain." The mind, stripped of the brain, would by definition be as invisible as the mind IN your brain. It's a safe bet you will never be shown the "mind" in that sense, but it's hardly an excuse for dismissing the obvious ability to choose that we all share.

 

[levi501]

It's hard to have discussions with people that have believed for so long in determinism. It's like the idea that this belief might've been held incorrectly for so long is too uncomfortable for them to consider. As a result I frequently see points ignored, arguments misrepresented, red herrings and then asserting ad nauseum "we do too lack free will".

I'm sure there is a small number of people like this...
But determinism isn't something that mommy, daddy and the church beat into your head all your life that many never bother to question. It's usually a philosophy developed later in life through looking at their own causual environment and extrapolating it to a macro scale. It's not usually a belief held by someone that isn't open to change or open to disecting their beliefs to prove they're false... for example in the areas of QM regarding determinism. But nice attempt at trying to be clever... I'm surprised you can't see the difference.

 

[Maxwell511]

What if you believe in neither determinism nor free will?

 

[levi501]

That usually comes down to how you define freewill.
Compatibilism, normative and positive claims... etc.

 

[Shane Roach]

I'm sure there is a small number of people like this...
But determinism isn't something that mommy, daddy and the church beat into your head all your life that many never bother to question. It's usually a philosophy developed later in life through looking at their own causual environment and extrapolating it to a macro scale. It's not usually a belief held by someone that isn't open to change or open to disecting their beliefs to prove they're false... for example in the areas of QM regarding determinism. But nice attempt at trying to be clever... I'm surprised you can't see the difference.

Good grief.

Not every atheist is a determist. Calvinists are. Hindu's I believe are. It can EASILY be a product of someone's upbringing.

This has no absolutely NOTHING to do with anything at all!!!

 

[TeddyKGB]

Well, the really silly thing to me is the whole reason to object to free will seems to be to avoid the "supernatural" because of all the observable phenomena we have been able to study in detail.

So after presumably reading this whole thread (and whatever others), you have come to the honest conclusion that the "whole reason" some of us disbelieve free will is that we are trying to deny the supernatural?

The same system of senses are what give me, at least, the sense that I make choices. So if they are to be trusted at all, I guess I have to say I have free will.

Which senses did you use to conclude that you have free will? Touch? Smell?

I love, "Show me a mind outside of a brain." The mind, stripped of the brain, would by definition be as invisible as the mind IN your brain. It's a safe bet you will never be shown the "mind" in that sense, but it's hardly an excuse for dismissing the obvious ability to choose that we all share.

I was not aware that "show me a mind outside of a brain" has been used to dismiss free will wholesale.

 

[levi501]

Not every atheist is a determist.

Please show me where I said otherwise, as this most certainly isn't true.

Calvinists are. Hindu's I believe are. It can EASILY be a product of someone's upbringing.

Sorry I should've made it more clear that I was discussing freewill for westernized english speaking countries where the God of the bible dominates religion. What percentage of the people that subscrribe to these relgions believe in free will? I think it's safe to assume a majority. Xianity pushes the concept of free will. Determinism isn't pushed so much as predestination might be from a spiritual sense is. Different concepts.

 

[warghaha]

SO how is will different from choice? It is a prioi assumption that we can not will things to happen, so including that in the definition is pointless. Choice is will as far as I can see. If we are free to choose, then we are free to will something to be. It doesn't mean we will get what we choose or will, but that we are free to intend.

That's why I put the "confused" smily at the end of the post...

Here's another:
God have the Free Will. But we got the Free Choice.
God gives the choices...and we're free to choose.
By God's will...we're free to choose.

Are we free to will that we can live without oxygens?
But we can choose to breath in or want to kill ourselves by refrain to breath.
e.g: You can't say: "I choose to live without oxygens". But God can(like believers believed)

Don't get so stressed out. This is just a mere opinion. You're free to choose not to agree

 

[warghaha]

Here's another:
God have the Free Will. But we got the Free Choice.
God gives the choices...and we're free to choose.
By God's will...we're free to choose.

Are we free to will that we can live without oxygens?
But we can choose to breath in or want to kill ourselves by refrain to breath.
e.g: You can't say: "I choose to live without oxygens". But God can(like believers believed)

Don't get so stressed out. This is just a mere opinion. You're free to choose not to agree

Uh ooh...just an addition to the bolded text as it wasn't clear enough...stop pushing my back....

Addition: Because God didn't will to give us a choice to live without oxygens, so we can't choose to live without them.
IOW, we can't choose outside the God's will.
IOW, our so-called Free Will is not so free as we must follow certain things, but we do have a Free Choice though. Totally free.

Does it make any sense?...No?...so don't buy it...

 

[Caliban]

Free will is an illusion

there is no choice

everything has been pre-designed and designated

 

[KCDAD]

Free will is an illusion

there is no choice

everything has been pre-designed and designated

What a pitiful reason to live then. I hope my script writer takes after the late great Lawrence Saunders.

 

[Caliban]

LOL

 

[elman]

Free will is an illusion

there is no choice

everything has been pre-designed and designated

No body forced you to belileve that or write that. You chose to do that and you alone are responsible for it. It is not an illusion that you wrote it. It is also not an illusion that you are responsbile for it.

 

[elman]

That's why I put the "confused" smily at the end of the post...

Here's another:
God have the Free Will. But we got the Free Choice.
God gives the choices...and we're free to choose.
By God's will...we're free to choose.

Are we free to will that we can live without oxygens?
But we can choose to breath in or want to kill ourselves by refrain to breath.
e.g: You can't say: "I choose to live without oxygens". But God can(like believers believed)

Don't get so stressed out. This is just a mere opinion. You're free to choose not to agree

No one who supports free will defines it as the ability to do everything and anything they want. That is a bogus argument against a postion no one takes.

 

[elman]

Uh ooh...just an addition to the bolded text as it wasn't clear enough...stop pushing my back....

Addition: Because God didn't will to give us a choice to live without oxygens, so we can't choose to live without them.
IOW, we can't choose outside the God's will.
IOW, our so-called Free Will is not so free as we must follow certain things, but we do have a Free Choice though. Totally free.

Does it make any sense?...No?...so don't buy it...

Of course we can chose outside of God's will. That is evil and sin. We all do it all the time. God's will is to be loving to our neighbor. We can chose to not be loving to our neighbor.

 

[warghaha]

Of course we can chose outside of God's will. That is evil and sin. We all do it all the time. God's will is to be loving to our neighbor. We can chose to not be loving to our neighbor.

God gave us those choices(including good and evil). We only have to choose. We can't will beyond God's will. So, we're not totally free to will, but totally free to choose.

What am I mumbling about...I'd got no idea...

 

[elman]

God gave us those choices(including good and evil). We only have to choose. We can't will beyond God's will. So, we're not totally free to will, but totally free to choose.

What am I mumbling about...I'd got no idea...

If you are saying it is the will of God that we be able to chose evil and suffer annilation by that choice, then I agree. If you are saying it is God's will that we be unloving and chose evil, then I disagree.

 

[warghaha]

If you are saying it is the will of God that we be able to chose evil and suffer annilation by that choice, then I agree. If you are saying it is God's will that we be unloving and chose evil, then I disagree.

Then, we're in the same boat...ok, I'll start scrubbing the deck now

 

[Marz Blak]

It seems to me that no one has answered the fundamental question here: what is 'free will'? How does it work?

If cognitive processes are fundamentally mechanistic in nature (as our understanding of brain science strongly suggests) then implicit in the assertion of the existence of this 'free will' is the assertion as well that there's some 'ghost in the machine' somewhere 'in there' making these supposedly free choices, in a way that is not fundamentally deterministic, but which is not fundamentally random either (since free will adherents clearly don't mean that either).

It seems to me then that this all gets back to an assertion of something called a soul, I guess, which it seems quite apparent to me is beyond any ability to prove (or disprove) but which I can find no reason to believe.

So I guess, on reflection, this is a 'never the twain shall meet' sort of discussion, a realization I always come to (again) whenever I get involved in a discussion of this topic. I don't seem to be able to come to any other conclusion. Hmmm....