Free Will

[TeddyKGB]

Yes it feels like I have control over my decisions-wait it is true, I do have control over my decisions.

What does it mean to "have control" over one's decisions? Is there a little homonculous inside your pineal gland pushing buttons?

 

[FSTDT]

This "universalism" argument always frustrates me because of the semantic quibbling over "free" will. If there are two alternatives and we can choose between them, then there is free will. Even if our choices are limited to the perceived avaiabilty of options, we are still free to choose between the options we perceive. If our choices are predetermined.. then what's the point of anything?

Certainly alternatives exist, but the act of a "choice" is completely determined as well.

The way people make choices works like this: there are number of inner and outer circumstances that make KCDAD, these include the criteria by which you weigh the merits of particular alternatives. When you make a choice, you are really weighing the alternatives against the criteria in your mind, and the alternative that yields the greatest merit becomes your behavior.

Here is a simple demonstration: you are presented with a choice to buy either a sports car or a minivan. The sports car gets good gas mileage, its fast, and gets you many foxy ladies; the minivan is roomy, has good insurance, and safe. Compare the choice that 18-year-old college going KCDAD would make compared to family-man KCDAD - obviously, you can probably guess how your particular inner and outer circumstances will help you guage the merits of your two alternatives, and you'll be able to predict your choice accordingly.

One of the implications of this way of making choices implies that if time were rewinded back to the moment of your choice to replicate your inner and outer circumstances exactly (i.e. identical alternatives, identical inner and outer circumstances including the way you make choices), then you would make the same "choice" each and every time. Hypothetically, you would only be able to choose otherwise if your inner and outer circumstances had differed in some way. (This is analogous to the way a computer makes choices.)

 

[levi501]

Almost all events in quantum mechanics are indeterminate. The same cause can produce meaning different events. As the brain is subjected to these laws of physics it is possible for the brain to essentially think in ways that are not necessarily predetermine but in most cases the most probable direction will occur. Maybe this could be why there seems to be a strange contradiction of determinism and free will.

Edit: Just as a side note the philosophy of predeterminism is actually dead in the water (on any sort of level in reality) as it simply is not how the universe works.

I know very little of quantum theory, but I don't believe it discounts determinism. It takes a more what's probable approach because not every variable is known. This of course doesn't mean that events are uncaused and the universe is any less deterministic.

 

[KCDAD]

people will ALWAYS choose what seems most logical to them.

REALLY? That why so many people spend years kicking themselves in the backside because of poor choices, based on anger, panic, lust or fear.

 

[elman]

What does it mean to "have control" over one's decisions? Is there a little homonculous inside your pineal gland pushing buttons?

It means that things that have happened to me in the past are not forcing me to do what I am doing now. That nothing is forcing me to decied what I decide but me. That I am not completely controled by nature, environment , dna or anything else. Talk about illusion. Believing you are not responsible for you decisions, that is illusion.

 

[elman]

I know very little of quantum theory, but I don't believe it discounts determinism. It takes a more what's probable approach because not every variable is known. This of course doesn't mean that events are uncaused and the universe is any less deterministic.

Events being caused does not mean everything is determined and we have no free will. Many times the cause is us because we have free will and exercise it.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Desribe an event that happens without cause or has some indeterminate element to it

Sex.

 

[elman]

One of the implications of this way of making choices implies that if time were rewinded back to the moment of your choice to replicate your inner and outer circumstances exactly (i.e. identical alternatives, identical inner and outer circumstances including the way you make choices), then you would make the same "choice" each and every time. Hypothetically, you would only be able to choose otherwise if your inner and outer circumstances had differed in some way. (This is analogous to the way a computer makes choices.)

It is an assumption that in your hypothetical rewind the same choices would be made. I think it is an invalid assumption, but since we cannot test it we cannot know. I also think that even if your assumption proved to be correct it would not make us only computers; and it would not elimanate free will.

 

[levi501]

Events being caused does not mean everything is determined and we have no free will.

actually it does.

 

[elman]

actually it does.

A non response-no meaning -no relavance, but it was your choice and you are responsible for it and no one forced you to do it.

 

[TeddyKGB]

It means that things that have happened to me in the past are not forcing me to do what I am doing now. That nothing is forcing me to decied what I decide but me. That I am not completely controled by nature, environment , dna or anything else. Talk about illusion. Believing you are not responsible for you decisions, that is illusion.

I do not need to know what "having control" is not. Tell me what it is.

 

[levi501]

A non response-no meaning -no relavance, but it was your choice and you are responsible for it and no one forced you to do it.

a false assertion-no insight -no critical thinking, but it's ok because it isn't your fault.

 

[elman]

a false assertion-no insight -no critical thinking, but it's ok because it isn't your fault.

I know, I was forced to do it. Do I have it right? You believe in this unseen force but not God because He is unseen.

 

[elman]

I do not need to know what "having control" is not. Tell me what it is.

It is making a decision that is not in your best interest but is the right thing to do, or making a decision that goes against your immediate desire but in the long run will probably be the better choice.

 

[Maxwell511]

I know very little of quantum theory, but I don't believe it discounts determinism. It takes a more what's probable approach because not every variable is known. This of course doesn't mean that events are uncaused and the universe is any less deterministic.

Every variable can be known and the future still cannot be know. It is impossible to ever know the future no matter how much knowledge you have. This is what Einstein was talking about when he said "God does not throw dice". He believed in a deterministic universe aswell but he was wrong. The future is not determined. Quantum physics does discount determinism.

Does this mean free will exists? No. It means we cannot say what will happen in the future but that doesn't mean we can control it.

 

[elman]

Every variable can be known and the future still cannot be know. It is impossible to ever know the future no matter how much knowledge you have. This is what Einstein was talking about when he said "God does not throw dice". He believe in a deterministic universe aswell but he was wrong. The future is not determined. Quantum physics does discount determinism.

Does this mean free will exists? No. It means we cannot say what will happen in the future but that doesn't mean we can control it.

Being unable to control the future does not mean we do not have any control over it and does not elimanate free will.

 

[TeddyKGB]

It is making a decision that is not in your best interest but is the right thing to do, or making a decision that goes against your immediate desire but in the long run will probably be the better choice.

Why do I make such a decision?

 

[Maxwell511]

Being unable to control the future does not mean we do not have any control over it and does not elimanate free will.

The point was more on whether we have control of ourselves.

My personal believe on free will is that it exists in a limited capacity.

 

[levi501]

Every variable can be known and the future still cannot be know. It is impossible to ever know the future no matter how much knowledge you have. This is what Einstein was talking about when he said "God does not throw dice". He believed in a deterministic universe aswell but he was wrong. The future is not determined. Quantum physics does discount determinism.

Does this mean free will exists? No. It means we cannot say what will happen in the future but that doesn't mean we can control it.

See I've heard conflicting stories that quantum physics doesn't discount determinism. Could you link me to some evidence of this, so I can read up on it? You don't actually expect me to believe you over Einstein, do ya? Also, things happening spontaneously without cause doesn't logically make sense. If you do in fact have all the variables you should be able to predict the outcome with 100% certainty. The fact that you can't begs the question as to whether you know all the variables and not that an uncaused event happened.

 

[Maxwell511]

See I've heard conflicting stories that quantum physics doesn't discount determinism. Could you link me to some evidence of this, so I can read up on it? You don't actually expect me to believe you over Einstein, do ya? Also, things happening spontaneously without cause doesn't logically make sense. If you do in fact have all the variables you should be able to predict the outcome with 100% certainty. The fact that you can't begs the question as to whether you know all the variables and not that an uncaused event happened.

Okay I'll try and find you a link. Give my a few minutes.