Free Will?

[Anjinsan]

Greetings all,
Okay, here's the super-condensed rundown on atheistic and theistic determinism.

Whenever you make a decision, it is a choice of multiple options based on reasons. I could ask you for what reasons you chose that decison. Some of them would be due to external factors, and some of them would be internal factors, like previous decisions. For the internal factors, I could ask you for what reasons you chose those, and I would repeat the process until all of the internal factors were results of external causes. So none of your decisions were a result of you.

As for theistic determinism, I will be using the omni-max definition of the omniscient God. In this case, it is a conflict of prequisites that negate free will rather than an action of God. In order for God to know everything that has happened, is happening, and will happpen, determinism must be true. In order for free will to exist, determinism must be false. So, the omni-max God contradicts free will due to the prerequisites.

I'm really not the best person to explain this, you'd be better off asking the atheists from the GA-cave, especially Dragar and Zoot.

 

[elman]

In order for God to know everything that has happened, is happening, and will happpen, determinism must be true. In order for free will to exist, determinism must be false. So, the omni-max God contradicts free will due to the prerequisites."

Incorrect. Free will can be granted by God and He know what you are going to do with it. His knowing what you are goiing to do does not take away His ability to geive you the power to decide. Knowlege does not remove free will. Determinism if it means God is responsible for everything and causes everything is not true because He has created us with the ability to love or not love and there for He does not control by force wheather we love or do not love. It is also not true because God is good and therefore is not the author and creator of evil. Everything God created is good. He created us with ability to create good things and evil things and when we chose to create evil things we created evil. Evil things and unloving acts or non actions are the same thing.

 

[Beoga]

man chooses according to his strongest desire according to his nature

 

[elman]

Sometimes man choses one way and sometimes another. Does his nature also change daily? Man cannot blame his bad choices on his nature or on God. He can, but it is a mistake. He is responsible for his unloving acts, and there is no escaping that reponsibility.

 

[Anjinsan]

Elman, you misunderstand me. If God knows the one outcome that will happen, that means there is only one possible outcome. It is necessary for there to be only one possible outcome that will happen with 100% certainty in order for God to know it. Otherwise, God isn't 100% sure if outcome A will happen or outcome B will happen, thus causing God to not be omni-max omniscient. And, it is necessary for there to be a multiple number of possible outcomes, each with a non-100% chance of happening in order for free will to exist. In other words, it is logically impossible for both to exist.

 

[elman]

Elman, you misunderstand me. If God knows the one outcome that will happen, that means there is only one possible outcome. It is necessary for there to be only one possible outcome that will happen with 100% certainty in order for God to know it. Otherwise, God isn't 100% sure if outcome A will happen or outcome B will happen, thus causing God to not be omni-max omniscient. And, it is necessary for there to be a multiple number of possible outcomes, each with a non-100% chance of happening in order for free will to exist. In other words, it is logically impossible for both to exist.

I do not agree. God has the power to give the ability to chose to love. He can know with 100% certainty that I am going to chose to not love. That does not mean He did not give me a choice and it does not mean my choice is determined by what God knew. It simply means that God knew what I was going to chose. Free will is in my having a choice. I had one and it is not effected one way or the other by what God knew I was going to do. You seem to have a problem with God being able to give me the power to chose and at the same time knowing the future. Why would you have a problem with God's power and ability? Why place limits on His power and ability?