Free Will: Yea or Nay?

[Davian]

I say nay. You have no "true" freewill. Everything you think you thought on your own is influenced by something you've learned or heard at some point.
...

Like what happened with these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ

 

[juvenissun]

I say nay. You have no "true" freewill. Everything you think you thought on your own is influenced by something you've learned or heard at some point. Our experiences shape the way we engage the world in future situations. You may think your thoughts are your own but if you were born in any other place or time, you'd be a totally different person.

If so, you can not define what a "free will" is.
There will be no meaning to an undefined term.
If you do not know what a thing is, then you can not say you don't have it.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I say nay. You have no "true" freewill. Everything you think you thought on your own is influenced by something you've learned or heard at some point. Our experiences shape the way we engage the world in future situations. You may think your thoughts are your own but if you were born in any other place or time, you'd be a totally different person.

so you are saying we had free will but somehow lost it.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

so you are saying we had free will but somehow lost it.

No. I'm saying that what you think was your own decision was actually influenced by a ton of different factors that are beyond your control. Factors that are themselves, influenced by other factors in your life. Thus, no true freewill. Your choice to do something may be more of a compulsion than a choice.

The culture you were born into, the time and place you live in, if you're a man or a woman, if you're old or young, if you've lost a loved one or never experienced loss.... etc. All these variables will help shape or determine the the choices you make when given a set of options.

You may think the choice was your own, that you have your own will and can act on it but as shown in the video Davian linked, you could be primed to think a certain way without even knowing it.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

No. I'm saying that what you think was your own decision was actually influenced by a ton of different factors that are beyond your control. Factors that are themselves, influenced by other factors in your life. Thus, no true freewill. Your choice to do something may be more of a compulsion than a choice.

The culture you were born into, the time and place you live in, if you're a man or a woman, if you're old or young, if you've lost a loved one or never experienced loss.... etc. All these variables will help shape or determine the the choices you make when given a set of options.

You may think the choice was your own, that you have your own will and can act on it but as shown in the video Davian linked, you could be primed to think a certain way without even knowing it.

well who would influence the first people or the first creation?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

well who would influence the first people or the first creation?

There never really was a "first people." At least, not in the sense like Adam and Eve.

I'd say that before we started making conscious decisions, we naturally acted (and reacted) on impulse. I wouldn't describe instinct as freewill, I would say that is the opposite of freewill. And I never said that it had to be a person that influences your decision making. Literally anything could prime you to make a specific decision in a specific scenario.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

There never really was a "first people." At least, not in the sense like Adam and Eve.

I'd say that before we started making conscious decisions, we naturally acted (and reacted) on impulse. I wouldn't describe instinct as freewill, I would say that is the opposite of freewill. And I never said that it had to be a person that influences your decision making. Literally anything could prime you to make a specific decision in a specific scenario.

you said we were influenced by others and other decisions , so the first ones must have had free will as they would have no one to influence them.

what would you describe as free will?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

you said we were influenced by others and other decisions , so the first ones must have had free will as they would have no one to influence them.

what would you describe as free will?

I just said in the post that you quoted that it doesn't have to be a person that influences your thinking. Events can do this too. Environmental factors will limit the choice you have in decision making. Your financial situation, your health, the time of year.... etc. These things will all put limits and restraints on the choices you think you have. In the end, you have no choice but to go with what you pick.

I describe freewill as the ability to choose for yourself according to your own desire. I believe this is an illusion.

 

[Mickiel]

I think we have limited will; I mean we have a will, its our will, its obvious we can exercise it , but I think to a degree. I agree with some I have read here, that explain " Influence on our will is a factor", free will suggest that a person can decide without being influenced by anything outside of them, and we get influenced by demons from both the inside out.

So its an interesting debate, this free will thing. If I take my children into the backyard and tell them they can play, but that they must stay within the barrier of the yard and not go beyond. Are they then free to play? Well yes, but they are limited to the confines of the yard. In my view, so it is with humanity. We have only so much will we can exercise, until we are engaged with the things which confine us. I recall reading that God and Jesus, in them we " Live, Move and have our being", which suggest to me a type of total dependence, hard to establish a cycle of total free will in that??

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I just said in the post that you quoted that it doesn't have to be a person that influences your thinking. Events can do this too. Environmental factors will limit the choice you have in decision making. Your financial situation, your health, the time of year.... etc. These things will all put limits and restraints on the choices you think you have. In the end, you have no choice but to go with what you pick.

I describe freewill as the ability to choose for yourself according to your own desire. I believe this is an illusion.

in the context of God giving us free will, which I thought we were discussing we seem to have moved a long way off. i'm pretty sure we have free will to chose to follow him or not.

 

[juvenissun]

No. I'm saying that what you think was your own decision was actually influenced by a ton of different factors that are beyond your control. Factors that are themselves, influenced by other factors in your life. Thus, no true freewill. Your choice to do something may be more of a compulsion than a choice.

The culture you were born into, the time and place you live in, if you're a man or a woman, if you're old or young, if you've lost a loved one or never experienced loss.... etc. All these variables will help shape or determine the the choices you make when given a set of options.

You may think the choice was your own, that you have your own will and can act on it but as shown in the video Davian linked, you could be primed to think a certain way without even knowing it.

Influence A + Influence B + ... + Inflence N --> ME.
ME is not YOU, and is not anybody else. ME is unique.
ME make a decision. Even under those influences, but they are ME and ME is them. So, it IS still ME's (my) decision.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Influence A + Influence B + ... + Inflence N --> ME.
ME is not YOU, and is not anybody else. ME is unique.
ME make a decision. Even under those influences, but they are ME and ME is them. So, it IS still ME's (my) decision.

Yes. It is YOU making the decision, but the choice YOU make is an inevitable one. You have no choice but to choose the option that your life has conditioned you to choose.

 

[juvenissun]

Yes. It is YOU making the decision, but the choice YOU make is an inevitable one. You have no choice but to choose the option that your life has conditioned you to choose.

Example?

Counter example: I can choose to go to the restroom now, or 30 minutes later. Why is one of them "inevitable"?

 

[striger]

Yes. It is YOU making the decision, but the choice YOU make is an inevitable one. You have no choice but to choose the option that your life has conditioned you to choose.

When a person refuses to admit his corruption and depravity, when he clings to his arrogant illusion that his need isn’t all that serious, then there is no hope given for him in the word of God.

 

[striger]

in the context of God giving us free will, which I thought we were discussing we seem to have moved a long way off. i'm pretty sure we have free will to chose to follow him or not.

This depravity is total and universal. It includes all humans and touches every part of each one. So its limited free will

 

[Chany]

Example?

Counter example: I can choose to go to the restroom now, or 30 minutes later. Why is one of them "inevitable"?

You said that what makes you "you" are prior influences. At some point, before you could ever possibly make choice, those influences were making your character.

Some people, given their unique character, will choose to go to the bathroom now. Other people, given their unique character, will choose to go to the bathroom in 30 minutes. The difference in their character determine their choices. Given who they are, they would always make the same decision given the same exact circumstances. Becuase who they are just prior influences that eventually go back to influences outside their control, their actions are determined; they aren't actually making a free choice in the sense that they could have actually done otherwise.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Example?

Counter example: I can choose to go to the restroom now, or 30 minutes later. Why is one of them "inevitable"?

Because regardless of which option you choose, that is the choice you were always going to make in that situation. So many other things beyond your control would have led to you delaying your bathroom trip by 30 mins that it becomes the only option you end up choosing.

 

[juvenissun]

Because regardless of which option you choose, that is the choice you were always going to make in that situation. So many other things beyond your control would have led to you delaying your bathroom trip by 30 mins that it becomes the only option you end up choosing.

Situation A --- my response A
Situation A again --- my response A
Situation A again --- my response A
....
Situation A again --- my response B !

This is called "progress" or "learning". It is MY free will choice.
We are working very hard to teach a robot to do that. We WANT a robot to have a free will like a human.

 

[juvenissun]

You said that what makes you "you" are prior influences. At some point, before you could ever possibly make choice, those influences were making your character.

Some people, given their unique character, will choose to go to the bathroom now. Other people, given their unique character, will choose to go to the bathroom in 30 minutes. The difference in their character determine their choices. Given who they are, they would always make the same decision given the same exact circumstances. Becuase who they are just prior influences that eventually go back to influences outside their control, their actions are determined; they aren't actually making a free choice in the sense that they could have actually done otherwise.

That is not me. It is a custom-made robot.

 

[Chany]

Situation A --- my response A
Situation A again --- my response A
Situation A again --- my response A
....
Situation A again --- my response B !

This is called "progress" or "learning". It is MY free will choice.
We are working very hard to teach a robot to do that. We WANT a robot to have a free will like a human.

What prompted you to change your choice?

Keep in mind, when we refer to Situation A, we are talking about the exact same situation with the exact same circumstances; same time and date, same setting, same people, same temperature, same everything. Underneath what we are referring to, you don't actually learn. You can't, becuase the situation is the same exact one, not a similiar but different one you are describing.