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Free Will: Yea or Nay?

Chany

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That is not me. It is a custom-made robot.

That's kind of the argument. You are like a custom-made robot as the things that made you "you", by your own admission, are prior influences. The way "you" think and reason is the product of those influences and causes, many of which are completely outside your possible sphere of influence (being human, being born in a specific place in. a specific time, your parents, etc.).
 
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juvenissun

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That's kind of the argument. You are like a custom-made robot as the things that made you "you", by your own admission, are prior influences. The way "you" think and reason is the product of those influences and causes, many of which are completely outside your possible sphere of influence (being human, being born in a specific place in. a specific time, your parents, etc.).

Yes, that is me. And the critical point is that me is unique. There is no other me. So, whatever I decide, it is an unique decision. In other words, it is MY decision.

So, nobody would ever know what would be me in the next moment. Thus, I am completely FREE. The environment is not my trap. It is the media in which I grow.
 
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juvenissun

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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post

Situation A --- my response A
Situation A again --- my response A
Situation A again --- my response A
....
Situation A again --- my response B !

This is called "progress" or "learning". It is MY free will choice.
We are working very hard to teach a robot to do that. We WANT a robot to have a free will like a human.
What prompted you to change your choice?

Keep in mind, when we refer to Situation A, we are talking about the exact same situation with the exact same circumstances; same time and date, same setting, same people, same temperature, same everything. Underneath what we are referring to, you don't actually learn. You can't, becuase the situation is the same exact one, not a similiar but different one you are describing.

Exactly. With all that restrictions, a human WILL still change. Most likely, he will try to "improve" the response. If possible, he will make a stupid robot to do the response for him.
 
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Chany

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Yes, that is me. And the critical point is that me is unique. There is no other me. So, whatever I decide, it is an unique decision. In other words, it is MY decision.

So, nobody would ever know what would be me in the next moment. Thus, I am completely FREE. The environment is not my trap. It is the media in which I grow.

It may be practically impossible, but, given enough knowledge about humanity and your circumstances, it is theoretically possible for some to predict your behavior.

You are describing a definition of free will that compatibilists give: we have a unrestricted will, so therefore we have free will.

The free will I am referring to is the ability to actually choose a course of action between a set of actions: the ability to do something other than what I did. Given the above discussion, we have established that I could not do otherwise; that, ultimately, I am not in control of my actions and my destiny because my decisions are the result of prior causes.
 
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Mickiel

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Like on a chess board, we all have choices to make, some of which are better than others. There limited choices and there is a time limit on this game we have to play.



Salvation is not a game God is playing with humanity, and salvation is far too important to leave it up to human choice.
 
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Chesterton

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lol. I do not see my brain as an adversary because - I am my brain, even if I am not consciously aware of all the decisions it (I? we?) may be making. The semantics get tricky.

Brain as adversary, lol, tequila can cause that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc5iTNVEOAg

How can we discuss terms without first reaching consensus on what we mean by those terms?

Right, we can't.

Hence the link to my older thread embedded in that paragraph.

I watched about half the Metzinger video. I don't know what's being said. "Phenomenal self" as experiential in the first-person seems like just another way of saying consciousness and awareness. A "self-model" seems to beg the question of what's being modeled. And first-person experience doesn't address what's specifically doing the experiencing. Explain or correct me if I'm wrong.

If you want to say soul or self is a process as with your digestion example that's fine. It doesn't make it any less real to say it's not a physical "thing". Particles are things, waves are actions or processes, and I think there are even physicists who say all particles are actually waves. After all, is life itself a thing or a process? We can tell when a plant, animal or human is alive or dead, but when it's dead, has some "thing" left it? I don't know. We can measure that some life processes have ceased, but that certainly doesn't mean life isn't a real thing. I think it's important to remember anyway that digestion doesn't exist for the sake of stomach; stomach exists for the sake of digestion.

The programming analogy works; it is just that the programming is a result of millions of years of evolution. See the video below- he is not saying that the neurones exercise will.

His programming analogy deals with the idea of avoidance. I understand how that would be important in the history of evolution, but in our actual lives it seems avoidance would comprise a tiny fraction of daily human decisions. The computer may be programmed to avoid checkmate, but cannot choose to quit playing, or throw the game, or to take a break and choose a pizza or a hamburger. As he said, it can't go into a snit either. The analogy is just too tiny to be a good analogy for human conscious will I think.

As I understand it, our will is constrained in a manner that still allows for us to be held accountable for our actions, and does not require anything outside of our current understanding of physics/chemistry/biology.

I would hate to try to condense hundred of hours of reading, video, and podcasts into a forum post, but you can listen to him explain it here:

(go to 24 min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cSgVgrC-6Y#t=2296

Hate to sound so dismissive, but I watched the whole thing, and I can't find where he says anything relevant to free will. The last person to ask a question in Q&A has completely misunderstood him, and he responds by just saying free will and determinism are compatible, without having given any evidence or argument in the previous hour how that could be. That's what I often get out of compatibilism. I think you sort of agreed with me in an earlier post that it's an either/or situation. It's either determinism or something which seems like magic. You could build the most complex system of mere motor neurons imaginable (or Lego toys for that matter), the size of the galaxy and you will not get one iota of will out of them or the thing you've built.

He seems to want to emphasize some avoidance traits being naturally selected for but, AFAIK, we're the only living things that can commit suicide. Not suicide for the sake of the colony or tribe, but just suicide for its own sake. Suicide would seem to put the lie to the idea that avoidance for the sake of survival could be the basis of our will.
 
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Davian

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Brain as adversary, lol, tequila can cause that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc5iTNVEOAg
If you take the "s" out of the "https://" the page formatting will be maintained.

Right, we can't.



I watched about half the Metzinger video. I don't know what's being said. "Phenomenal self" as experiential in the first-person seems like just another way of saying consciousness and awareness. A "self-model" seems to beg the question of what's being modeled. And first-person experience doesn't address what's specifically doing the experiencing. Explain or correct me if I'm wrong.
Tricky. He is, in a way, saying that there is no 'first person' (hence the title of the video). The brain experiences its inputs, and as a part of that processing, a self-model (phenomenal self) is (temporarily) created, and *it* has the illusion of the first-person experience. The "I" in the well-known "I think therefore..." is an illusion.

If you want to say soul or self is a process as with your digestion example that's fine. It doesn't make it any less real to say it's not a physical "thing". Particles are things, waves are actions or processes, and I think there are even physicists who say all particles are actually waves. After all, is life itself a thing or a process? We can tell when a plant, animal or human is alive or dead, but when it's dead, has some "thing" left it? I don't know. We can measure that some life processes have ceased, but that certainly doesn't mean life isn't a real thing. I think it's important to remember anyway that digestion doesn't exist for the sake of stomach; stomach exists for the sake of digestion.



His programming analogy deals with the idea of avoidance. I understand how that would be important in the history of evolution, but in our actual lives it seems avoidance would comprise a tiny fraction of daily human decisions. The computer may be programmed to avoid checkmate, but cannot choose to quit playing, or throw the game, or to take a break and choose a pizza or a hamburger. As he said, it can't go into a snit either. The analogy is just too tiny to be a good analogy for human conscious will I think.
It's not the size, it is the quantity, and the way they connect.

Hate to sound so dismissive, but I watched the whole thing, and I can't find where he says anything relevant to free will. The last person to ask a question in Q&A has completely misunderstood him, and he responds by just saying free will and determinism are compatible, without having given any evidence or argument in the previous hour how that could be. That's what I often get out of compatibilism. I think you sort of agreed with me in an earlier post that it's an either/or situation. It's either determinism or something which seems like magic.
Perhaps what you do not see is 'free will' in the manner in which you define it.

You could build the most complex system of mere motor neurons imaginable (or Lego toys for that matter), the size of the galaxy and you will not get one iota of will out of them or the thing you've built.
Perhaps, if you had millions of years to work out the programming.

He seems to want to emphasize some avoidance traits being naturally selected for but, AFAIK, we're the only living things that can commit suicide. Not suicide for the sake of the colony or tribe, but just suicide for its own sake. Suicide would seem to put the lie to the idea that avoidance for the sake of survival could be the basis of our will.
Suicide is documented in animals other than humans.

Animal suicide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Science concludes that humans use a small portion of the entire human brain and do not exercise most parts of the human brain throughout their lives, is that conclusive evidence to you that those unused parts of the brain do not exist? :doh:

I may be reading this out of context, but this claim seems dubious to me. From where did you get this idea?
 
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J0hnSm1th

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The free will I am referring to is the ability to actually choose a course of action between a set of actions: the ability to do something other than what I did. Given the above discussion, we have established that I could not do otherwise; that, ultimately, I am not in control of my actions and my destiny because my decisions are the result of prior causes.
I agree that free will is constrained by environment, culture, wealth, mental health, personality, and opportunity. We are free to choose available options within that context. If i like icecream, can afford to buy icecream, and have the time and means to go to the icecream shop, i can choose from among their available flavors! :thumbsup:
 
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Chany

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I agree that free will is constrained by environment, culture, wealth, mental health, personality, and opportunity. We are free to choose available options within that context. If i like icecream, can afford to buy icecream, and have the time and means to go to the icecream shop, i can choose from among their available flavors! :thumbsup:

But why do you like ice cream? Why do you choose one flavor over another? Why do you like one flavor over another? That's what I am aiming at. You like those flavors because of your past biological and social structures. These structures were outside of your control; therefore, what you like is outside of your control.
 
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Chesterton

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Tricky. He is, in a way, saying that there is no 'first person' (hence the title of the video).

But he uses the term "first person" as part of his definition and examples to try and deny personhood. I won't quibble about it but this is what I meant when I said they're speech/thoughts get muddled sometimes.

The brain experiences its inputs, and as a part of that processing, a self-model (phenomenal self) is (temporarily) created, and *it* has the illusion of the first-person experience. The "I" in the well-known "I think therefore..." is an illusion.

How does that happen?

It's not the size, it is the quantity, and the way they connect.

Can you elaborate?

Perhaps what you do not see is 'free will' in the manner in which you define it.

Yes, maybe there's a better video which discusses it as I and others define it.

Perhaps, if you had millions of years to work out the programming.

The magic ingredient of time which makes the impossible possible. I say "God-did-it" you say "Time-did-it". :)

Suicide is documented in animals other than humans.

Animal suicide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very sketchy article. But then maybe animals are also not so programmed for survival.
 
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Davian

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But he uses the term "first person" as part of his definition and examples to try and deny personhood. I won't quibble about it but this is what I meant when I said they're speech/thoughts get muddled sometimes.
I do not think he is denying personhood, other than in a dualistic sense.

How does that happen?
Dunno. My focus on that subject was to understand what is happening in the brain, not how.

Can you elaborate?
Not beyond that you can read from Metzinger and Dennett.

Yes, maybe there's a better video which discusses it as I and others define it.
How do you define "free will", scientifically?

The magic ingredient of time which makes the impossible possible. I say "God-did-it" you say "Time-did-it". :)
There is evidence of large amounts of time passing. What evidence to we have that points directly to gods? Nothing?

Very sketchy article. But then maybe animals are also not so programmed for survival.
 
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Chesterton

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I do not think he is denying personhood, other than in a dualistic sense.

I guess illusions do exist as illusions. He's just saying persons aren't "real", whatever that means to him.

Dunno. My focus on that subject was to understand what is happening in the brain, not how.

If you accept that an illusion is being created but don't know how, are you accepting it on faith or what?

Not beyond that you can read from Metzinger and Dennett.

That makes two of us, because they're not really saying anything meaningful.

How do you define "free will", scientifically?

If you've read my posts in this thread you know I don't define it scientifically.

There is evidence of large amounts of time passing. What evidence to we have that points directly to gods? Nothing?

Show me the evidence of large amounts of time passing. Well first, show me the evidence that there is such a thing as time. If you, Davian, think that you are an illusion to your"self", good luck trying to prove the reality of anything whatsoever.
 
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Davian

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I guess illusions do exist as illusions. He's just saying persons aren't "real", whatever that means to him.



If you accept that an illusion is being created but don't know how, are you accepting it on faith or what?
I accept it as a scientific description, that is testable and falsifiable.

That makes two of us, because they're not really saying anything meaningful.
What meaning were you looking for?

If you've read my posts in this thread you know I don't define it scientifically.
Why not? Will that not bring clarity to discussions such as these?
Show me the evidence of large amounts of time passing.
I had no idea you were YEC. My sympathies.:)
Well first, show me the evidence that there is such a thing as time.
Sit there for five minutes and then ask me again.^_^
If you, Davian, think that you are an illusion to your"self", good luck trying to prove the reality of anything whatsoever.
A nice misrepresentation of what I said.:thumbsup:

And, a tacit admission that you have no evidence that points directly to gods.:wave:
 
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Chesterton

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I accept it as a scientific description, that is testable and falsifiable.

Have tests been done?

Why not? Will that not bring clarity to discussions such as these?

Because as I said I don't think it can be explained scientifically.

A nice misrepresentation of what I said.:thumbsup:

You seemed to be in agreement with what Metzinger says.

And, a tacit admission that you have no evidence that points directly to gods.:wave:

You've explicitly demonstrated a lack of direct evidence for your strange beliefs in this thread.
 
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Radagast

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Do we actually choose our decisions, or are they chosen for us?

There are many different definitions of "free will" in philosophy. Your question is meaningless until you get specific about which definitions of "free will" and "choose" you are using.
 
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Davian

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Have tests been done?
These usually take the form of illusions, like those detailed in this talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZsDDseI5QI
Because as I said I don't think it can be explained scientifically.
What am I to make of that? That your version of 'free will' is of no scientific significance?

You seemed to be in agreement with what Metzinger says.
I do.

You've explicitly demonstrated a lack of direct evidence for your strange beliefs in this thread.
I do not recall bringing my beliefs into this exchange.
 
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