Free Will: Yea or Nay?

[durangodawood]

Do those "prior causes" make decisions for you, or do you make the decisions? If you make the decisions, then your will is not outside of your control, and the prior causes merely form an influencing factor in your decision. Influence is not equivalent to control.

And what "prior causes" do you mean anyway?

What do you make of this?...........

...The soul might not be physically determined, but that doesn't mean it isn't psychologically determined. For example, I might consider reasons X,Y, and Z, when choosing to do action M. If reasons X,Y, and Z fully explain why I chose to do M, then I am determined. If they don't fully explain why I choose to do M (and nothing does), then my choice to do M is random.

Again, there doesn't seem to be any possibility for anything other than determinism or randomness.

 

[Chany]

Do those "prior causes" make decisions for you, or do you make the decisions? If you make the decisions, then your will is not outside of your control, and the prior causes merely form an influencing factor in your decision. Influence is not equivalent to control.

And what "prior causes" do you mean anyway?

I make decisions. But what does it mean to make decisions? It is to look at the current situation and use my reasoning and desires. Where do my reasoning and desires come from?

They come from what I am. What I am is the product of prior causes: things that make me and are in the past. If we trace the causal chain back, we find that all of what I am is given to me from causes outside of my control: my biology, my early childhood, etc.

 

[WoundedDeep]

What do you make of this?...........

I do not see how determinism (as you guys call it) mean the non-existent of free will. In fact, how can determinism even exist if there was no exercise of will in the first place to determine what should be?

 

[WoundedDeep]

I make decisions. But what does it mean to make decisions? It is to look at the current situation and use my reasoning and desires. Where do my reasoning and desires come from?

They come from what I am. What I am is the product of prior causes: things that make me and are in the past. If we trace the causal chain back, we find that all of what I am is given to me from causes outside of my control: my biology, my early childhood, etc.

The fact that you make decisions means that you are exercising your own will. The prior causes you mention are only factors that affect your will, but it does not override the will or render it non-existent. In fact, how your childhood is like, how your biology is are also determined by the will of others. Nothing can be determined in your life apart from your will or the exercise of other people's will on your life.

 

[Chany]

The fact that you make decisions means that you are exercising your own will. The prior causes you mention are only factors that affect your will, but it does not override the will or render it non-existent. In fact, how your childhood is like, how your biology is are also determined by the will of others. Nothing can be determined in your life apart from your will or the exercise of other people's will on your life.

What is a "will"?

 

[WoundedDeep]

What is a "will"?

The conscious part of the mind that allows you to make decisions, just like you claim you can do.

 

[Chany]

The conscious part of the mind that allows you to make decisions, just like you claim you can do.

Where does this conscious part of my mind come from? Why is it different from someone else's?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Where does this conscious part of my mind come from? Why is it different from someone else's?

If you believe in God, then you know the source is God. What do you mean by different? In substance, will is the same for all, it is an ability to make decisions, there is no difference in substance.

 

[Davian]

Arguably not a science? Then you certainly know nothing about psychology. Psychology as a whole has certain scientific elements to it (including studying how the brain works), which probably you have not even heard of. Your idea of science is probably so narrow much of this universe will not even be explainable.

If you desire to remain in your secluded scientific world I have no objections, just don't try to make everyone agree only with your notion of reality.

If you have no scientific citations to support your opinion, just say so.

 

[Chany]

If you believe in God, then you know the source is God. What do you mean by different? In substance, will is the same for all, it is an ability to make decisions, there is no difference in substance.

I'm not talking about ultimate causes, I'm talking about the cause directly above the will. I don't see how the will is some magic substance. I think it is merely our desires being played out.

 

[Chesterton]

The fact that you can ask two human brains if there is free will and get two different answers seems to me good evidence for free will.

Even better, has a philosopher ever changed from believing to not believing? Has a Calvinist ever become orthodox, or vice versa? I'm sure it happens.

 

[Chany]

The fact that you can ask two human brains if there is free will and get two different answers seems to me good evidence for free will.

Even better, has a philosopher ever changed from believing to not believing? Has a Calvinist ever become orthodox, or vice versa? I'm sure it happens.

Determinism doesn't mean static or that everyone will think the same.

Your argument is based upon belief. I heavily doubt the ability to honestly change your beliefs at the flip of a switch. Belief is not a free choice. I can't actually choose to be convinced by something.

 

[Davian]

Yes, nothing can override it unless you willingly submit it to obey something else's influence.

Then you can will yourself not to submit to the effects of drugs, alcohol, sedatives, etc? Amazing.

My point here was to refute the argument that free will does not exist.

I do not think that the OP or the article I linked made that argument.

I believe free will exists, independently of whether we can exercise it or not.

Free will that you cannot exercise? Is that like the smaller sizes of jumbo shrimp?

It is simply an invisibly conscious part of our mind, which relies on proper functioning of the brain to actually materialise in our decisions or actions.

In what way does this offer more explanatory power than having the mind as an emergent property of the brain?

Are you a dualist?

 

[Chesterton]

Determinism doesn't mean static or that everyone will think the same.

One could argue that if determinism were true it would mean that. Ergo, it's not true.

Your argument is based upon belief. I heavily doubt the ability to honestly change your beliefs at the flip of a switch. Belief is not a free choice. I can't actually choose to be convinced by something.

It happens all the time, probably not at the flip of a swith, but it happens.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Then you can will yourself not to submit to the effects of drugs, alcohol, sedatives, etc? Amazing.

Did you read what I said? I said nothing can override your will UNLESS you willingly submit your will to that thing's influence. Isn't submitting to the effects of alcohol etc the exact same thing as "willingly submit your will to that thing's influence"? Amazing lack of understanding.

Free will that you cannot exercise? Is that like the smaller sizes of jumbo shrimp?

Is that a surprise? Cannot exercise does not equate non-existence. Is that an impossibility to you?

In what way does this offer more explanatory power than having the mind as an emergent property of the brain?

Are you a dualist?

Lol? I see no argument provided here other than an attempt to create confusion by the use of words that essentially refer to the same substance of things.

And by your repetitive mindless question on the other thread despite the fact that I actively answered it multiple times, I see no need to answer you any further.

If you are a troll, just say so.

 

[Willtor]

One could argue that if determinism were true it would mean that. Ergo, it's not true.

...

I don't think that argument could be made. After all, even if our brains were wired up identically, we could still get different inputs from the environment. Our brains are not identical -- I'm just saying, even if they were...

 

[durangodawood]

I do not see how determinism (as you guys call it) mean the non-existent of free will. In fact, how can determinism even exist if there was no exercise of will in the first place to determine what should be?

Determinism mean prior conditions are 100% of the reason for future outcomes.

Where's the room for any sort of freedom in that?

 

[Chany]

One could argue that if determinism were true it would mean that. Ergo, it's not true.

It happens all the time, probably not at the flip of a swith, but it happens.

No, one really can't argue that. A determinist can accept that someone might change their ideas.

Do you actually choose to change those beliefs like you might choose a soda at a vending machine? Can you actually choose to be convinced by an argument? I cannot comprehend how this can be. I can't think about a religion and decide one day that, suddenly, I believe it. I must be convinced within my core to belief something.

 

[Davian]

Did you read what I said? I said nothing can override your will UNLESS you willingly submit your will to that thing's influence. Isn't submitting to the effects of alcohol etc the exact same thing as "willingly submit your will to that thing's influence"? Amazing lack of understanding.

If that were the case, why can my wife drink two glasses of wine, when, after half a glass, I must go lie down and sleep it off? Are you saying I should be able to will myself free of those effects?

Is that a surprise? Cannot exercise does not equate non-existence. Is that an impossibility to you?

I am not arguing for the non-existence of free will. However, free will that you cannot exercise is effectively non-existence, which is what you are describing, are you not?

Lol? I see no argument provided here other than an attempt to create confusion by the use of words that essentially refer to the same substance of things.

This is a philosophy forum, and the order of the words does have importance. That the "mind" affects the brain, or is an emergent property of the brain, are two fundamentally difference concepts.

And by your repetitive mindless question on the other thread

My questions are tailored to the context in which they are placed.

despite the fact that I actively answered it multiple times,

"Actively", when what was asked for was "directly".

I see no need to answer you any further.

Your answers have not amounted to much anyway.

If you are a troll, just say so.

Must you throw insults at those you disagree with?

 

[Davian]

One could argue that if determinism were true it would mean that. Ergo, it's not true.



It happens all the time, probably not at the flip of a swith, but it happens.

I do not dispute that it happens - I have experienced such things myself.

But, is it 'free will' as in a conscious decision? Can you, right now, decide that every god to date is simply a product of human imagination?