Free Will: Yea or Nay?

[WoundedDeep]

What would you say, a schizophrenic who is disconnected from the concept of his will to do much about it? Or a dementia patient who is all that a schizophrenic is but with even less will to control their body?

You raise a good point. But I believe there is a difference between saying that will does not exist and saying that something prevents/hinders the exercise of our will. Does the schizophrenic or dementia patient have no will at all? Definitely not, but they might be hindered from exercising that will due to their condition.

 

[Inkfingers]

What about free will as a cause?

Will is also an effect of previous causes; and so not free.

If something is caused it is not free.

If something is not caused it is random and not will.

The whole universe is evidence that every event happens as an effect of causes (that includes our thoughts, beliefs, feelings, etc). Special pleading for a subjective feeling that is based in ignorance of how we fit into a wider order, and which offers zero actual evidence, does not challenge that in any way.

I'm not going through this again. We've had multiple threads on this recently and a great many people simply do not understand the concepts.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Are you having trouble understanding the question? Do you have some science to substantiate that opinion of yours, or is it just opinion?

I have raised psychology as the "science to substantiate" twice already, do you not understand my simple English?

 

[Star Adept]

Will is also an effect of previous causes; and so not free.

I'm not going through this again. We've had multiple threads on this recently and a great many people simply do not understand the concepts.

First time I've seen it, I understand. Valid answer.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Will is also an effect of previous causes; and so not free.

Will is an effect of previous causes? What might those causes be?

 

[Star Adept]

You raise a good point. But I believe there is a difference between saying that will does not exist and saying that something prevents/hinders the exercise of our will. Does the schizophrenic or dementia patient have no will at all? Definitely not, but they might be hindered from exercising that will due to their condition.

I didn't say free will didn't exist. But you did claim that nothing could override it. That's what I was responding to.

However: what is will if not something we can exercise? Does will exist to you, because you know you have it? How do you know you have it, because you exercise it?

 

[Davian]

I have raised psychology as the "science to substantiate" twice already, do you not understand my simple English?

Simple indeed.

Hand-waving towards a field of study that is arguably not a science fails to substantiate your opinion.

If you have no scientific citations to support your opinion, just say so.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Simple indeed.

Hand-waving towards a field of study that is arguably not a science fails to substantiate your opinion.

If you have no scientific citations to support your opinion, just say so.

Arguably not a science? Then you certainly know nothing about psychology. Psychology as a whole has certain scientific elements to it (including studying how the brain works), which probably you have not even heard of. Your idea of science is probably so narrow much of this universe will not even be explainable.

If you desire to remain in your secluded scientific world I have no objections, just don't try to make everyone agree only with your notion of reality.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I didn't say free will didn't exist. But you did claim that nothing could override it. That's what I was responding to.

However: what is will if not something we can exercise? Does will exist to you, because you know you have it? How do you know you have it, because you exercise it?

Yes, nothing can override it unless you willingly submit it to obey something else's influence. My point here was to refute the argument that free will does not exist.

I believe free will exists, independently of whether we can exercise it or not. It is simply an invisibly conscious part of our mind, which relies on proper functioning of the brain to actually materialise in our decisions or actions.

 

[Star Adept]

so, I will the loss of my will? Presuming this is profound and new information, I should just be able to will myself not to lose my will anymore?

 

[WoundedDeep]

so, I will the loss of my will? Presuming this is profound and new information, I should just be able to will myself not to lose my will anymore?

Not sure I understand what you mean here. Why will anyone will the lose of their will?

 

[lesliedellow]

Science, philosophy and theology all seem to point to the answer no. At least if what you mean by free will is the power of contrary choice.

If you mean only the ability to act in accordance with your wishes, then that is compatible with both determinism (science/philosophy) and with predestination (theology).

 

[WoundedDeep]

Science, philosophy and theology all seem to point to the answer no. At least if what you mean by free will is the power of contrary choice.

Can you explain the bolded part in greater detail, preferably with an example? Thanks in advance.

 

[Star Adept]

Not sure I understand what you mean here. Why will anyone will the lose of their will?

You said I would have to willingly submit to the influence that influences me to lose my will.

 

[WoundedDeep]

You said I would have to willingly submit to the influence that influences me to lose my will.

Yes you have to willingly stop the exercise of your will for the influence to overpower you (provided you have a functioning brain that is completely healthy), but I didn't say you will ever lose your will.

 

[Star Adept]

Will myself to stop the exercise of will? Isn't willing myself to stop exercising my will? And clearly it's not a permanent loss of will, but if gone too far, I can lose concept of my will. If the influence is overpowering me, how do I get back to a state by which I can will again? I can't will it back with no concept of will.

 

[quatona]

Do we actually choose our decisions, or are they chosen for us? Is our "rational" thought shaped merely by genetics, biochemistry, personal experience and other aspects of neurology, or are we capable of coming up with thoughts "for ourselves"? What the heck does that even mean?

Personally, I don´t like the idea that my thoughts are uncaused, i.e. random.
Since this wouldn´t be very plausible, either, I don´t care much about this version of "free will".

I'm honestly somewhere in the middle here. On one hand, I think that our brains are, essentially, organic computers -- they're biochemical reactions within a neurological structure which reacts to outside stimuli and data. On the other hand, we obviously possess some kind of ability to come to conclusions based upon that data that is not merely some kind of impulsive reaction; yes, our brain's processes are inherently reactions of some kind, but that doesn't mean that they're immediate or that our higher-order thinking is formed for us.

Personally, I am tending towards the notion that our reactions are way more "impulsive" than it seems to us (not withstanding the post-hoc rationalizations we come up with).

Neurologically speaking, free will or lack thereof is an unproven hypothesis at best, so for now we're just going to have to settle with somewhat educated philosophical speculation.

I have never really understood what people actually mean when saying "free will".
What limitations would their will have to be free of in order for them to call it "free"?
Also, I find the idea that my will is free to will what it wants a little scary. It would mean that I am not free, in that I am a slave to my will.

 

[Chany]

Your statement is self contradictory. How did you even determine to do what you did if you did not first choose to do it (among all options available) with free will? Your idea of "could not have done otherwise" exists only in your imagination, I'm afraid.

My decision-making process is determined by prior causes. So, I think about the options and pick one, but my will and the way I think is outside of my control, in that they are formed by prior causes.

Why do I desire to go back to sleep?

 

[WoundedDeep]

My decision-making process is determined by prior causes. So, I think about the options and pick one, but my will and the way I think is outside of my control, in that they are formed by prior causes.

Why do I desire to go back to sleep?

Do those "prior causes" make decisions for you, or do you make the decisions? If you make the decisions, then your will is not outside of your control, and the prior causes merely form an influencing factor in your decision. Influence is not equivalent to control.

And what "prior causes" do you mean anyway?

 

[durangodawood]

.....Decisions are made by the will of the mind, a wholly independent and functioning aspect of our human conscious. The will is not overpowered by anything, no matter how strong the influence might be, unless we submit our will to that thing's influence. This is what makes homo sapiens different from all observable things constructed of matter which function not by will but by patterns and laws of nature....

Does this mean free-will cannot arise from some highly complex arrangement of matter?