Free will vs Determinism and religion

[lesliedellow]

Exactly. So a decision determined by someone else is not a decision by the so-called decision-maker.

Decisions are always determined, whether it be by God acting through proximate causes, or whether it be the proximate causes themselves.

 

[Chesterton]

Decisions are always determined, whether it be by God acting through proximate causes, or whether it be the proximate causes themselves.

Fine, as long as you allow human will to be a cause.

 

[Davian]

Me: My God is not any color.
You: What color is that again?

Non-existent gods also have no colour. Coincidence? Have you a positive ontology for this god of yours?

Yes it has a temporal component when it influences the temporal realm.

Yes.

Show me a decision-making flowchart for a "timeless being".

No, I read books and regurgitate ideas with which I tend to agree, once in a blue moon adding an original thought.

I will watch for that.

 

[lesliedellow]

Fine, as long as you allow human will to be a cause.

Human will is just another name for the outcome of the various internal and external factors which determine how we react.

 

[Chesterton]

Non-existent gods also have no colour. Coincidence? Have you a positive ontology for this god of yours?

Yes but also apophatic.

Show me a decision-making flowchart for a "timeless being".

Show me a decision-making flowchart for a temporal being. I'll make it easier - you can use your own.

 

[Chesterton]

Human will is just another name for the outcome of the various internal and external factors which determine how we react.

Will is a determinant, not an outcome.

 

[juvenissun]

First of all I want to say that I am extremely inexperienced regarding faith and theology. And I do not mean this thread provactive in any way.


If G-d is all knowing and thus knows the future does this mean that the future is already determined. And if that is the case how could the L-rd then punish people for their lives if the script has already been written for their lives.

How can there be free will if G-d is all knowing? And if there is free will and freedom of choice, does that then must mean that G-d is not all knowing?

Maybe by asking this question I am seeing what G-d is completely wrong by personifying him as an individual.

Any input that can shed some light on this will be very much appreciated

Thank you,

Fortunecookie

When something we can determine, then free will can change things. For something that the free will of one person can not change, then God has determined it.

God determines everything. But God allows us free will, so we can determine those thing we are capable of determining.

 

[Davian]

Yes but also apophatic.

Please present the positive ontology for your particular deity.

Show me a decision-making flowchart for a temporal being. I'll make it easier - you can use your own.

Would not a "timeless" being be at every step in the flowchart such as this? there would be no "start" point.

 

[Colter]

Please present the positive ontology for your particular deity.

Would not a "timeless" being be at every step in the flowchart such as this? there would be no "start" point.

Throughout the evolution of man the world has witnessed two kinds of religion, evolved and revealed religion.

 

[Davian]

Throughout the evolution of man the world has witnessed two kinds of religion, evolved and revealed religion.

Please define these terms.

 

[Chesterton]

Please present the positive ontology for your particular deity.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/biblegreek

Would not a "timeless" being be at every step in the flowchart such as this? there would be no "start" point.

Flow charts don't apply to free will beings.

 

[Davian]

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/biblegreek

I don't see anything there. Perhaps you could cut and paste something relevant.

Flow charts don't apply to free will beings.

Your god cannot make a choice? Which is it?

 

[Chesterton]

I don't see anything there. Perhaps you could cut and paste something relevant.

It was there when I posted the links. Search for "Divine Liturgy" and "New Testament".

Your god cannot make a choice? Which is it?

I don't understand. I didn't say that.

 

[Davian]

It was there when I posted the links. Search for "Divine Liturgy" and "New Testament".

Didn't see it. Try pointing it out.

I don't understand. I didn't say that.

I know. You asked for a flow chart. I provided. Now you provide yours for your god.

I have no idea what you mean by "free will". Free from what? No charge?

 

[Chesterton]

Didn't see it. Try pointing it out.

What didn't you see?

I know. You asked for a flow chart. I provided. Now you provide yours for your god.

I have no idea what you mean by "free will". Free from what? No charge?

You provided me an unfunny joke chart. I responded by saying that will is not derived from a flow chart, by definition. I think you're just messing with me or something.

 

[Davian]

What didn't you see?

As positive ontology for your particular god. Something testable, verifiable. No hearsay, no bible stuff. No personal testimony. No dogma, no unfalsifiable religious claims.

You provided me an unfunny joke chart.

The content was irrelevant (and subjective ). The intent was to show a flow chart that has a starting point and decision points. It cannot happen all at once, making it quite the challenge for a "timeless" (whatever that means) being.

I responded by saying that will is not derived from a flow chart, by definition.

I asked about the ability to make a choice. Don't change the subject. A flow chart is merely a graphical representation of a decision making process.

I think you're just messing with me or something.

Not at the moment, but if you keep evading my point, that option is always open to me.

Making a choice requires a series of steps made in a certain order. Is not a "timeless being" (still not sure what this entails) essentially at every step? Is a choice a choice if you know the choice and it cannot be changed, because you know what choice is/was to be made?

 

[Chesterton]

As positive ontology for your particular god. Something testable, verifiable. No hearsay, no bible stuff. No personal testimony. No dogma, no unfalsifiable religious claims.

You simply asked for positive ontology, that's what I offered you. There is nothing really testable, but I assume you already know that. Why are you playing games? If you have something to say on the thread topic, you can just come out and say it.

The content was irrelevant (and subjective ). The intent was to show a flow chart that has a starting point and decision points. It cannot happen all at once, making it quite the challenge for a "timeless" (whatever that means) being.

As I already indicated, it's not just a challenge; it's impossible, for a temporal being with a will, as well as a timeless being.

I asked about the ability to make a choice. Don't change the subject. A flow chart is merely a graphical representation of a decision making process.

No, you asked me for a chart (post #23). Please don't accuse me of changing the subject when you can't even remember the subject.

Not at the moment, but if you keep evading my point, that option is always open to me.

You made a point somewhere? I must have missed it in amongst this game of "20 questions".

Making a choice requires a series of steps made in a certain order. Is not a "timeless being" (still not sure what this entails) essentially at every step? Is a choice a choice if you know the choice and it cannot be changed, because you know what choice is/was to be made?

I can't understand the first question, "No" to the second question.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I think that if the future is already decided, we still have choice. Take away that capacity, of deliberation etc, and you disable the individual, like you would with a lobotomy or similar like chopping an ear off. So, even if there is one future, being a "choosing creature" makes a difference from being a "non-choosing creature", and that is where we are located. So the space-time line we tread, navigate and negotiate as a creature who at least thinks he chooses, is one that is different from the psycjhologically "de-choiced" organism. "De-choicing" would probably interfere with many brain areas, and make us much less adapted and much less capable of everyday activity we take for granted.

 

[Davian]

You simply asked for positive ontology, that's what I offered you. There is nothing really testable, but I assume you already know that. Why are you playing games? If you have something to say on the thread topic, you can just come out and say it.

Who is playing games? You were making claims of what your god is not/has not, and I simply asked for the opposite; I did not think you had anything, but you did say you did.

As I already indicated, it's not just a challenge; it's impossible, for a temporal being with a will, as well as a timeless being.

So making a choice is impossible for your timeless being. How is it impossible for a temporal being?

No, you asked me for a chart (post #23). Please don't accuse me of changing the subject when you can't even remember the subject.

In post #25, you respond to my request with a request that *I* first provide *you* with a chart. Why did you, at that time, not simply say that you could not provide what was asked of you?

You made a point somewhere? I must have missed it in amongst this game of "20 questions".

Sorry 'bout that. The guys here get all over me if I don't hit my quota.

I can't understand the first question,

Nether do I. A complication of discussing something that lacks a positive ontology.

"No" to the second question.

So your god cannot make a choice - it is like a bug suspended in amber, unable to move. What is free will when there is no choice?

 

[Tree of Life]

If G-d is all knowing and thus knows the future does this mean that the future is already determined. And if that is the case how could the L-rd then punish people for their lives if the script has already been written for their lives.

Indeed the future is already determined. God doesn't simply know the future. He ordained all that will come to pass and he brings the future about.

Lamentations 3:37-38
Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

Isaiah 46:9-11
remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

We are still responsible for our decisions because we freely choose to do the things that we do. Even though all that comes to pass and all of our decisions are within the ordination of God, we still freely choose to do the things that we do. We are, therefore, liable to punishment or reward.

How can there be free will if G-d is all knowing? And if there is free will and freedom of choice, does that then must mean that G-d is not all knowing?

There is no human freewill in the libertarian sense. We are not free to surprise God or to do things that are outside of the parameters that he has set for us. We are, however, free in the compatablist sense.

Maybe by asking this question I am seeing what G-d is completely wrong by personifying him as an individual.

The Bible is clear that God is a person - in fact he is three persons living in perfect communion with one another.