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Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

Clare73

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Agree with you.

Both? Isn't that the same thing?
No, one is "remission (Gr. aphesis) of sin by faith,"
the other is "declaration (by the Divine Court) of forensic righteousness (Gr: dikaiosis) by that faith," because of the remission of sin.
Forensic righteousness is not actual righteousness, as in holiness, it is simply a right standing with justice (not guilty).
 
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Clare73

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That's how you show your teaching is NT apostolic teaching? Ok? Not that different from what they are doing imo.

Btw, in post #111 you quote Ephesians 3:15. Did you get the right verse?
Yep, that's a typo. . .should be Eph 2:15. . .fixed it. . .thanks.
 
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zoidar

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No, one is "remission (Gr. aphesis) of sin by faith,"
the other is "declaration (by the Divine Court) of forensic righteousness (Gr: dikaiosis) by that faith," because of the remission of sin.
Forensic righteousness is not actual righteousness, as in holiness, it is simply a right standing with justice (not guilty).
We are made righteous through faith, that much I know.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Agree with you.

Both? Isn't that the same thing?
'Occurring simultaneously' is not the same as 'the same thing'. The one is logically descendent from the other.
 
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Clare73

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We are made righteous through faith, that much I know.
Justification (dikaiosis) is a forensic righteousness only, it is not actual righteousness of holiness, which is by sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).
Justification is a declaration of right standing with justice. . .time served. . .guilt removed. . .in good standing with the Court, law.
Sanctification is actual righteousness of holiness.
 
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zoidar

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Justification (dikaiosis) is a forensic righteousness only, it is not actual righteousness of holiness, which is by sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).
Justification is a declaration of right standing with justice. . .time served. . .guilt removed. . .in good standing with the Court, law.
Sanctification is actual righteousness of holiness.
What use do we have of actual righteousness from a salvific standpoint, when we have been forensic righteous?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.
This might be relevant if I hadn’t already been quoting scriptures to support my position. The scriptures, early church writers, and the apostolic church teachings regarding this matter are all in unison with one another.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nothing of which Iranaeus received from his sources would be in disagreement with the NT Scriptures, which we also have and by which we can measure everything.

You still have not adequately dealt with Ro 5:12-15, being true to its words, context and the issues it raises. . .and thereby leaving a hole in your theology.
I’ve left no hole at all, you simply dismiss verse 12. All died because all sinned not because Adam’s sin was imputed upon them. Your position contradicts Ezekiel 18:20.
 
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Clare73

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What use do we have of actual righteousness from a salvific standpoint, when we have been forensic righteous?
Dikaiosis (justification) is simply (in our legal terms) a verification/delcaration by the Court that one has paid the penalty of his crime, that one is no longer guilty of that crime, and that one is in right-standing with justice, the Court. No knocking on your door and arresting you for that crime again. Your business with the Court is completed. But it does not alter, has no bearing on one's personal righteousness.
Our personal righteousness; i.e., sanctification, comes by obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nope, the text itself in the context of all Scripture carries all the weight.
Really? How many time did Jesus have to explain the scriptures to men who knew them extensively? What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense because men have struggled with interpretation of the scriptures since they were first written even going all the way back to the Old Testament and the scriptures themselves prove that.
 
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Clare73

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This might be relevant if I hadn’t already been quoting scriptures to support my position. The scriptures, early church writers, and the apostolic church teachings regarding this matter are all in unison with one another.
You have not addressed the Scritures nor the points of my responses to your assertions, regarding:

post #106 - Ro 5:18, Eph 2:3,

post #120, #123 - Ro 5:12-15, Ro 5:18-19, Ro 4:1-11.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Please Biblically demonsrate, not just assert, this position.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking here. Are you asking me to provide scriptures that indicate that the early
church writers and apostolic churches refuted Calvin’s theology?
 
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Clare73

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I’ve left no hole at all, you simply dismiss verse 12. All died because all sinned
You simply take v.12 out of context, and still fail to deal with the whole passage (Ro 5:12-15) and the issues it presents.
not because Adam’s sin was imputed upon them. Your position contradicts Ezekiel 18:20.
Previously addressed (posts #120, #130, #131). . .with no response.
 
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Clare73

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I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking here. Are you asking me to provide scriptures that indicate that the early
church writers and apostolic churches refuted Calvin’s theology?
See post #151.
 
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zoidar

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Dikaiosis (justification) is simply (in our legal terms) a verification/delcaration by the Court that one has paid the penalty of his crime, that one is no longer guilty of that crime, and that one is in right-standing with justice, the Court. No knocking on your door and arresting you for that crime again. Your business with the Court is completed. But it does not alter, has no bearing on one's personal righteousness.
Our personal righteousness; i.e., sanctification, comes by obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).
If we have Dikaiosis (justification), but not live in obedience to the Holy Spirit, then what?
 
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Clare73

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If we have Dikaiosis (justification), but not live in obedience to the Holy Spirit, then what?
You either didn't have dikaiosis because habitual disobedience demonstrates false faith, or you're headed for a severe correction.
 
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zoidar

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You either didn't have dikaiosis because habitual disobedience demonstrates false faith, or you're headed for a severe correction.
Thank you for the responses! God bless!
 
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BNR32FAN

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You simply take v.12 out of context, and still fail to deal with the whole passage (Ro 5:12-15) and the issues it presents.

Previously addressed (posts #120, #130, #131). . .with no response.
I’ve dealt with it this entire conversation. I’ve explained it in detail several times. You remember the posts where I capitalized the word RESULTED? That was directly addressing Romans 5:12-15. Paul said that our condemnation was a result of Adam’s transgression he did not say anything about Adam’s sin being imputed upon us. This is directly addressing Romans 5:12-15 so please don’t make anymore false accusations about me not addressing it.
 
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Clare73

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I’ve dealt with it this entire conversation. I’ve explained it in detail several times. You remember the posts where I capitalized the word RESULTED? That was directly addressing Romans 5:12-15. Paul said that our condemnation was a result of Adam’s transgression he did not say anything about Adam’s sin being imputed upon us.
Paul did not say "impute" in Ro 5:12-15, as he did of Abraham in Ro 4:3, but he did describe/present imputation in Ro 5:12-15.
This is directly addressing Romans 5:12-15 so please don’t make anymore false accusations about me not addressing it.
You did not address and reconcile the issues Paul raised, which lead to only one conclusion: imputation by God of Adam's sin/guilt; to wit:
1) all died between Adam and Moses, therefore, all sinned, because the death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23),
2) but there was no law/command at that time with the death penalty attached, as there was in the Garden, which caused Adam's mortality,
3) and where there is no law, there is no sin taken into account against anyone (Ro 5:13) and, therefore, no wages of sin; i.e., death (Ro 6:23),
4) so what sin was
accounted (imputed, reckoned) to them by God, of what sin did they die?
Paul is the one who presents the questions and raises the issue of imputation in Ro 5:12-15, as well as demonstrating his answer.

And his only answer is that Adam's sin was
accounted (logizomai = imputed, reckoned) by God to those between Adam and Moses, for they were not themselves guilty of Adam's sin, when the son does not naturally incur the penalty for his father's sin (Eze 18:20).
So they did not
incur Adam's sin, it was accounted/imputed/reckoned to them by God.

This is the question (1-4) and the answer Ro 5:12-15 presents.
We have three Biblical facts which show this answer:
1)
Adam was the pattern for Christ (Ro 5:14). Of what could sinful Adam possibly be the pattern for the righteous son of God, the Christ?
2) Abraham's faith, not his obedience, was
imputed/reckoned/accounted to him by God as righteousness (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3) and
3)
faith, not obedience, is likewise imputed/reckoned/accounted to the born again by God as righteousness (Ro 4:1-11).

The corresponding conclusions to these facts are:

1) The imputation to us by God of sinful (first) Adam's sin/guilt was the pattern for the imputation to us by God of righteous (second Adam) Christ's obedience/righteousness, which conclusion is stated in the contrasting parallels of Ro 5:18-19.

2) As God's righteousness (Ro 1:17) was imputed by God to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3), so Adam's sin was imputed by God to Abraham.
3) As Christ's righteousness is imputed by God to those born of Christ (1 Co 1:30), so Adam's sin is imputed by God to those born of Adam (Ro 5:12-15).

Ro 5:12-15 demonstrates that Adam's sin is accounted/imputed/reckoned to all mankind.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You simply take v.12 out of context, and still fail to deal with the whole passage (Ro 5:12-15) and the issues it presents.

Previously addressed (posts #120, #130, #131). . .with no response.
You say I take verse 12 out of context, so how to you interpret it?
 
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