Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

[Brother-Mike]

Not correct...

Salvation is pre determined but our every action is not.

I myself can't seriously dispute your sentiment here Carl, but neither would I have disagreed with "... AND so is every one of our actions" or "Neither Salvation nor our actions are predestined"

All three modes of reality are expressed within the Bible, so to me the perennial "mystery" of these two planes (the Divine and the Creaturely) is how each believer chooses to grasp and understand the interrelation.

Want to live ONLY in the creaturely plane, where you're completely free to choose? I say go for it. Certainly one can find countless proof-texts that support this. You'll stumble on the Divine decree-type passages of the Bible mind you.

Want to believe that reality is ultimately just a pre-scripted theatrical play, with us as completely automated actors? Go for it! You'll stumble on the free will-type passages, plus you'll quickly realize that you can't just lie there like a "bump on a log" but indeed you need to move, act and relate within the creaturely plane.

It's not like Christianity doesn't throw a good deal of "mysteries" at us - cosmological, the Incarnation, the Trinity, theodicy, etc, and maybe grappling with these seemingly-contradictory models of ultimate reality is a whopper, but I am still comfortable with them being compatible.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I myself can't seriously dispute your sentiment here Carl, but neither would I have disagreed with "... AND so is every one of our actions" or "Neither Salvation nor our actions are predestined"

All three modes of reality are expressed within the Bible, so to me the perennial "mystery" of these two planes (the Divine and the Creaturely) is how each believer chooses to grasp and understand the interrelation.

Want to live ONLY in the creaturely plane, where you're completely free to choose? I say go for it. Certainly one can find countless proof-texts that support this. You'll stumble on the Divine decree-type passages of the Bible mind you.

Want to believe that reality is ultimately just a pre-scripted theatrical play, with us as completely automated actors? Go for it! You'll stumble on the free will-type passages, plus you'll quickly realize that you can't just lie there like a "bump on a log" but indeed you need to move, act and relate within the creaturely plane.

It's not like Christianity doesn't throw a good deal of "mysteries" at us - cosmological, the Incarnation, the Trinity, theodicy, etc, and maybe grappling with these seemingly-contradictory models of ultimate reality is a whopper, but I am still comfortable with them being compatible.

I see that all are rewarded for right action - this then confirms 'free will'.

I see also that He, on our invitation, seals our salvation with the indwelling fear of Him - from that point on we have 'free will' within limits. (Jer 32:40)

But really there is no free will in an absolute sense because our humanity is an impediment to free choice.

 

[Jonaitis]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

If God is outside of time, then God does not actually experience anything. It is only from our finite imagination that helps us convey the all-knowing God. He cannot be surprised, not because He knows all things, nor because He predetermined all things, but because God is without such a function to be surprised. We cannot fathom God as He is, we can only talk of Him in a way that relates to our experience. We are finite, so we imagine Him to be infinite. We are weak, so we imagine Him to be impregnable. We can only speak of Him as a child speaks of adult things, or in negation of what He is not. He predetermined everything from a creature perspective of His providence. He Himself is not truly involved or uninvolved. We cannot comprehend it.

 

[Brother-Mike]

I see that all are rewarded for right action - this then confirms 'free will'.

I see also that He, on our invitation, seals our salvation with the indwelling fear of Him - from that point on we have 'free will' within limits. (Jer 32:40)

But really there is no free will in an absolute sense because our humanity is an impediment to free choice.

I am reminded of a joke recounted by Iain McGilchrist:

A man goes to his Rabbi and asks "Rabbi, one of my friends believes that there is free will. Another says that free will is impossible. Who is correct?". The Rabbi answers "They both are." The man then asks "But Rabbi, these are mutually exclusive positions! Both cannot be right." The Rabbi answers "All three of you are correct."

 

[Brother-Mike]

So since we are in a sinful nature (human depravity), we are only free to choose within those limits (which is always death)

I am perhaps slightly less quick to make this connection - after all, Romans 1 opens the door to natural revelation being available to all without excuse, although the strong indication is that ultimately none make the grade. At a slightly deeper level, I believe it still holds true that any elect/saints would still have been predestined and called by God to begin their salvation, in whichever way God sees fit.

So our choice to obey and follow God is now within our ability whereas before it wasn't (at least it was only in the form of General Faith/Revelation, pre-Christ/Gospel era). So do we or do we not ultimately have free will to choose salvation?

1. If you are Elect, whether before Christ (e.g. Abraham, Naaman) or after, God will call you. And then God will change your heart and see to your salvation in whichever way he sees fit. For example, Abraham was saved purely through the celestial covenant of Genesis 15:6.
2. But on the creaturely plane - our normal day-to-day existence - you always and rightly have the option to believe, and by maintaining that belief you will be saved. If, at that moment, you could peer over the shoulder of God and sneak a peak at the Divine Screenplay you'd see your name written in the Book of Life (and always was). And if tomorrow you stop believing and then sneak another peak your name would no longer be there (and never was).

So that is why I wrestle with this. If God already knew I wasn't going to succeed in following him 100% sold out for Christ, then why even bother to remove "hindrances to my faith" in the first place.

1. Surface answer: who knows the mind of God? Believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
2. Just below the surface: you (and everything else) are dutifully, perfectly playing your part of the Divine Screenplay, warts and all, with belief, without belief, with struggle, without struggle. All as planned, precisely.
3. I remember coming across a John Piper talk where he noted that there's a part of him that wonders each night whether he'll wake up a Christian the next day. Coming from a Calvinist this might seem like a contradiction to his position, but I believe that he's right here. In reality you don't know your final state of salvation. Nor that of the person next to you. And certainly not one week into the future. The only thing we can do is to act our part within the Play, each day at a time, believing.

I would say I would rather just enjoy having some of those "hindrances" anyways since my choice was already known in advance.

I think you'll get just the right level of hindrances to ensure your salvation. Or to ensure your apostacy. Either way

My two cents at least...

 

[Water and Fire]

It's A.

Everything is predestined by God. He is not a giant fortune teller in the sky. The reason he knows the end from the beginning, is because he decided how things would go ahead of time.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Most folks don't see the difference between Status and Condition.

The prodigal was never not a son.

Those truely born again are adopted into His family so their status changes forever.

He indwells them so they wont fall away. Their condition might deterriorate but who they are remains.

 

[Eloy Craft]

then why would HE create those HE knew would end in hell? It is an absurd blasphemy, contradicting the scriptures...

If God chose to filter out those who would reject Him, that would make the truth about human nature permanently unknowable. Not only that but unable to will the acts that realize human potential. That would mean being made in the image and likeness of God would remain unknowable, would make God a liar and defeat the purpose of making us rational creatures in the first place.. Mankind would be unable to be what God intended us to be. Knowing is what we are made for and what everything we are and are meant to become is hinged. The very idea is antithetical to being a self determined creature made in the image and likeness of God.

 

[stevevw]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

I am not sure about a Multiverse. A similar logic is used to explain away the fine tuned universe for intelligent life argument. The analogy sounds a lot like QP and the observer effect. The observer/subject creates reality by the choices they make.

People like to believe that they can make a difference to the world and their life. Maybe God can know the past, present and future yet also live in each at the same time. So though he knows the outcomes of our lives he also in the present allowing us to make free choices.

I don't think we can really comprehend Gods mind, just like we can't QP. Maybe there's a connection.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Knowing what the outcome will be is different than making events to determine that outcome.

As explained once while on retreat, you may know the outcome of a book before you read it,
but do not have the ability to change the story.

So, it is with God and free will. He knows the outcome, but allows us to make the choices
we want. God knows that humans are prone to follow their own will rather than His, so
knowing the end result ahead of time is the knowledge God has. He doesn't remove free will
from humans, only Satan does that. Free will is a gift that humans have which the demons are
jealous of.

In fact, the key to demonic possession is to surrender the will to the demon.

 

[TedT]

If God chose to filter out those who would reject Him, that would make the truth about human nature permanently unknowable.
...

A lot of theo-babble without dealing with the blasphemy of accusing HIM of contradicting HIMself by knowingly creating some people doomed to hell when HE clearly states He does not want them to die nor takes any pleasure in it...elevating man's fantasies above scripture to support a corrupt theology.

 

[Eloy Craft]

@TedT Hmmm. God can't wish that no one ever sinned even though we did? I see no contradiction on God's part.
All I see is our fall and God wishing we didn't.

Don't mock what you don't understand.

 

[Clare73]

It's A.

Everything is predestined by God. He is not a giant fortune teller in the sky. The reason he knows the end from the beginning, is because he decided how things would go ahead of time.

That's divine foreknowledge.

 

[Clare73]

A lot of theo-babble without dealing with the blasphemy of accusing HIM of contradicting HIMself by knowingly creating some people doomed to hell when HE clearly states He does not want them to die nor takes any pleasure in it...elevating man's fantasies above scripture to support a corrupt theology.

Is God omniscient or not?
Does he know all things, or only some things--just those of the past and present?

If he knows before he creates them that they are going to hell, how is he not creating them to end up in hell?

Honesty cannot avoid that conclusion.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If God is outside of time, then God does not actually experience anything. It is only from our finite imagination that helps us convey the all-knowing God. He cannot be surprised, not because He knows all things, nor because He predetermined all things, but because God is without such a function to be surprised. We cannot fathom God as He is, we can only talk of Him in a way that relates to our experience. We are finite, so we imagine Him to be infinite. We are weak, so we imagine Him to be impregnable. We can only speak of Him as a child speaks of adult things, or in negation of what He is not. He predetermined everything from a creature perspective of His providence. He Himself is not truly involved or uninvolved. We cannot comprehend it.

Agreed. However, even what you wrote is said from a purely human logic, necessarily short of facts concerning the nature of God.

Therefore, there are some things you must say to make your point, that I can't quite agree with as you stated them, since he says otherwise (for humanity's understanding). So I'm glad you said it and not me! I expect you will get some virulent reactions.

 

[Jonaitis]

Agreed. However, even what you wrote is said from a purely human logic, necessarily short of facts concerning the nature of God.

Therefore, there are some things you must say to make your point, that I can't quite agree with, since he says otherwise (for humanity's understanding). So I'm glad you said it and not me!

I am learning a new approach, and I think rationalizing it achieves the appropriate outcome. God operates through natural means, and through natural means I try explain His ways in a logical way.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am reminded of a joke recounted by Iain McGilchrist:

A man goes to his Rabbi and asks "Rabbi, one of my friends believes that there is free will. Another says that free will is impossible. Who is correct?". The Rabbi answers "They both are." The man then asks "But Rabbi, these are mutually exclusive positions! Both cannot be right." The Rabbi answers "All three of you are correct."

There is something to the old Jewish didactic dialectic that shows its curious face in many places of scripture —even, I think, in God's ways of maturing his redeemed. Our ignorance, presumptuousness and foolishness is not just covered by his amazing grace, but USED for the purpose of bringing us up in him and getting to know him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am learning a new approach, and I think rationalizing it achieves the appropriate outcome. God operates through natural means, and through natural means I try explain His ways in a logical way.

I like that.

But be careful there: I expect you mean by "rationalizing it", something along the lines of "reasoning concerning it". But to say "rationalizing it" will to some people carry a whole lot of baggage.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Most folks don't see the difference between Status and Condition.

The prodigal was never not a son.

Those truely born again are adopted into His family so their status changes forever.

He indwells them so they wont fall away. Their condition might deterriorate but who they are remains.

Agreed completely. In fact, the curious thing about the deterioration of the condition is that God uses even that to bring about that predestined finished product —that one particular member of the Bride of Christ, or that particular piece in the construction of God's Dwelling Place. God's forbearance and grace is beyond comprehension.

 

[Clare73]

Thank you. So option 1 is the problematic one.
Option 2 is one that could be understood.

The problem with option 1 is:
So if everything is already predetermined and predestined, then we don't really have free will.

That's a notion of man. . .where in Scripture do we find that man must, or does, have free will?

Men are possessed of a limited free will, in that they do not have the power to choose (execute) all moral choices; e.g., man cannot choose to be sinless, to never sin in thought, word or deed.

Rather, man has free will in the Biblical sense: the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what he prefers.

But man's will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by his disposition; i.e., what he likes, dislikes.
God operates in man's disposition, giving him to prefer his will, and man then "willingly and freely chooses, without external force or constraint, what he prefers."

God does not violate man's free will, God uses man's free will to accomplish his purposes.

So predestination and predetermination do not mean "we don't really have free will" in the Biblical sense.