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akaDaScribe

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I was going to respond to your points, but to be honest with you, it completely breaks my heart that you perceive him the way you do and that’s just not who he is. I remember having had some of the same feelings and I’m trying to remember how I moved past them. The things I have come to understand I did not understand back then and I’m not sure I would have heard someone who gave me a list of reasons.

So I ask you, if you could know the living God, if you could know his love, if you could ask him questions and understand the things that trouble you about him, would you be willing to? If you could know the living God, would you do it?
 
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gaara4158

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I think I know enough already. God, being almighty and all-knowing, is the gatekeeper between myself and belief in him. He knows what he would have to do for me to believe in and love him, and yet he has not done that thing. What else am I to conclude?
 
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akaDaScribe

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Well, tell me what you need and I will bring it to him. I can't make God do anything, but I can nag him about it like an annoying lobbyist. I would like to do that for you because I think you are worth it. You can pm it to me if it's not something you feel like talking about on the forum.
 
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gaara4158

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I don’t even know what I would need, but God would know, and that’s the point. I am exactly in the state of belief that God wants me to be in. If you want me to believe, as I am sure you do, it’s up to God to change his mind, not you to change mine. Is it fair or just that God’s going to punish me for his own decision?
 
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akaDaScribe

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I know it's asking a lot, but can you do me a favor? Can you take some time to consider what you would need? You are correct that God knows what you need. But part of what you need may include you understanding what you need.
 
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gaara4158

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I know it's asking a lot, but can you do me a favor? Can you take some time to consider what you would need? You are correct that God knows what you need. But part of what you need may include you understanding what you need.
If God can become as apparent as my left shoe and my smartphone, then I’d believe. He’d have to manifest physically in objectively measurable ways. Only he knows to what extent he’d have to do this in order for me to accept him as real and not in my imagination, but so far he hasn’t, so here I am.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You've done a fine job here in clearing up the semantic mess that was evident in your previous few posts, even down to the last sentence above where I've arbitrarily cut off for the sake of making comment. It much of what you're saying here, I think I can agree with or mostly so.

...being that I'm not a Divine Command theorist, and being that both Ethics and Social Philosophy were some of the subjects I most had to study while a college student, I'm not sure just how 'easy' it will be for you to either get me to agree with you about the "holding" of values or about the essence of God's moral being or His moral actions and ideals. So, this isn't to say that I'm right and that you're automatically wrong, but rather I'm just giving you a heads up, gaara. I know you're an intelligent guy, and from the way you write, I'm confident you would've made a good philosophy student.

Ok. I'll be that God-defender, however, the extent to which I 'have' to defend my point of view, in my assessment, only has to do with the extent to which I think that I should try to convince you to drop your personal convictions and adopt those of the New Testament. And if I don't think that my POV requires me to have to convince you on an epistemic level, then that's yet another complication that can play into our discussion.

But let's start with the idea that we "hold" similar values? First of all, do we? And second of all, how does one actually "hold" values----how does one measure just "how" we each respectively do this (i.e. how does hermeneutics then play into this supposed "holding")?
 
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akaDaScribe

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Ok I’m on it. Let’s see what happens. One thing though. Try to let go of your anger towards God for 1 week and don’t say or write negative things about him. Otherwise my efforts will be in vein.

BTW, if he does come knockin, make sure you open the door.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Why would you think he has anger toward God? I have no more anger to your god than to Sauron.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I already responded to this in a post earlier today, but you might not have seen it.


https://www.christianforums.com/threads/free-will-in-heaven.8077851/page-6#post-73083878


No this doesn't make sense, and it doesn't address my helium point. Let me give you the short answer and then the long answer.

You seem to be hinting at two sorts of equations:

10·x÷x=10 for all nonzero x

√100=10

The first equation is true. It's pretty much that simple and there's nothing more to say, really. The second equation is true. The fact that √100=-10 as well does not change this. I'm not sure what equation you have in mind that would show that 10 is "kind of 10 but not really."

Here's the formal answer:

Mathematics is nothing but assumptions, definitions, and the conclusions that follow. (As an aside, nothing can actually be proven from assumptions and definitions... but that's an issue for another day.) And while mathematics is a language, it differs from common language.

In common language, all words are defined in terms of other words. This technically leaves everything undefined, and there is no way to avoid this issue (hence my nihilism). Mathematics deals with this problem in its own way: instead of having everything circularly defined, mathematical symbols are defined in terms of undefined, primitive symbols.

For example, consider the ordered pair (0, 1). First, let's define an ordered pair (a, b) in terms of the set: (a, b)={a, {a, b}}. An ordered triple (a, b, c) would be {a, {a, b}, {a, b, c}}. So you can see how an ordered n-tuple would be constructed.

But what about 0 and 1? How are they defined?

We define the natural numbers as follows:

0={}=Ø
1={Ø}
2={Ø, {Ø}}

and so on.

Simply put, anything that is actually "10" will be encoded into a set like this with 10 elements. If there is a variable present, then whatever we're discussing is not 10.

But what is a variable and what is Ø? These are primitive symbols. They have no actual meaning. Intuitively we understand the notion of the variable and of the set: that the first is a placeholder for some number and that the second is a collection of things. But a placeholder for a number doesn't mean much until we know what a number is, and a number is defined in terms of sets. A set is a collection of elements. What's an element, though? An element is a member of a set. To avoid this circularity, sets are left undefined and element are defined as members of sets.

So the reality is that it's worse than what I told you above. I said that mathematics is nothing but assumptions, definitions, and the conclusions that follow. But the definitions themselves are ultimately undefined. So really, mathematics is nothing but assumptions, meaningless symbols, and "conclusions" that "follow." Mathematics is literally just the pushing of symbols... and yet the world of mathematics is rich with more wonders than we can imagine.

But even still, 10=10.



Data is ultimately meaningless as I showed above, but even if we were to ignore that, it's still the case that data which characterizes me completely isn't actually me. Similarly, consider a definition of a ball that completely characterizes what a ball is. Is this definition a ball? No. It's just a definition. Data is not physical reality.

Well, except data might be physical reality. I would say that we probably do exist in a simulation, and that we are probably lines of code. But then what you'd really be describing is metadata, and not the data that is me. Metadata is not the same as the data it's describing.

In any case, the fact that you could run the code that characterizes me while I sit there and watch it all happening pretty much disproves your idea.




I think I addressed this in the earlier post as well.

Not that I saw.
 
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gaara4158

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I don’t have anger towards God. I don’t think he exists. I don’t have much regard for his character according to the Bible, but this isn’t an emotional thing.
 
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Tinker Grey

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akaDaScribe

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I don’t have anger towards God. I don’t think he exists. I don’t have much regard for his character according to the Bible, but this isn’t an emotional thing.

So then, you don't have anger towards God, and you don't have a problem refraining from saying negative things about him for a week, correct?
 
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gaara4158

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So then, you don't have anger towards God, and you don't have a problem refraining from saying negative things about him for a week, correct?
I’m not angry at Voldemort or Sauron either, but if people tried to point to them as moral authorities I’d probably make it a point expose their moral flaws as well. It has nothing to do with anger.
 
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akaDaScribe

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I’m not angry at Voldemort or Sauron either, but if people tried to point to them as moral authorities I’d probably make it a point expose their moral flaws as well. It has nothing to do with anger.

Ok gaara,

The moment has passed. You could not even refrain for saying negative things about God for 1 post.
 
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gaara4158

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Great! It took some doing, so I'm glad it's all cleared up and we (mostly) agree on the vocabulary side of things.

Oh, butter me up, why don't you?

You are of course under no obligation to defend a theistic moral system to me, especially if the one I'm attacking isn't even the one you believe in. I'm primarily interested in seeing if I can get you to see things from my perspective, but I wouldn't bother doing this if I didn't think you could offer some interesting rebuttals.

Alright, before we get into the "how" of holding values, I should pin down what I mean by that. When I say I hold a value, it's another way of saying I value something. To value something is to believe in its importance to your own personal needs and/or desires. So when I say that we both hold certain values, I'm saying we both find certain things important to our own personal needs and desires.
As far as I can tell, there are a handful of things that are universally valued. These things would correspond with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and it's here that moral axioms are implicitly captured. Human flourishing is used as the axiomatic goal of moral systems because as humans, we all value flourishing over suffering, and it is easier to flourish as a cooperative group with a code of conduct than alone in the anarchical wilderness.

At this point, either you agree that the goal of morality is to facilitate human flourishing and we can proceed to evaluate God's ways accordingly, or your moral system is grounded in something else, which as you said, adds another level of complication to our discussion. If your moral system is grounded in something else, I don't know how it helps me obtain the things I need or desire, so I don't know of what value it is to me.
 
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gaara4158

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Ok gaara,

The moment has passed. You could not even refrain for saying negative things about God for 1 post.
Saying negative things is not the same as anger. So what's your point?
 
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akaDaScribe

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Saying negative things is not the same as anger. So what's your point?

 
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gaara4158

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don’t say anything negative
Ah, ok. Well I’m morally opposed to your request. I will not be participating. I will point out evil where it appears in fiction people take seriously as a moral guide.

Further, I find it absurd that this would be a part of the process for demonstrating something’s existence. What else do we demonstrate in this way?
 
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