Free will in heaven?

[Chriliman]

As far as I can tell, most Christians believe in free will. They also believe that one cannot sin in heaven. How would you reconcile those beliefs?

In heaven you are one with God. God has free will and will not sin.

 

[cvanwey]

As far as I can tell, most Christians believe in free will. They also believe that one cannot sin in heaven. How would you reconcile those beliefs?

You will most likely receive a plethora of differing answers... Such responses will stem from one's (definition) of free will. Below are a couple of options:

free will - 'the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion' (Oxford Dictionary)

(or)

free will - 'free will is NOT the ability to control your actions, but instead the ability to control your thoughts prior to the choice of such possible actions.' - (paraphrased from Daniel Do - UC Irvine)

(or)

etc.....

On a side note.....

Please also remember that 'thought crime' is amplified by Jesus in the Bible. Meaning, the ability to control your thoughts seems to weigh more heavily than the choice of whether or not to carry out the action; (or at least as bad as the action itself).

Under such a model, if the prevailing processes are true, the ability to think about 'sin' would need to be 'removed' in heaven. Concluding, one then no longer has the ability for free choice, on top of no longer obtaining free will.

Free will definitions differ for many

 

[akaDaScribe]

It sounds like you're saying that the journey is important and that the end goal is not all that matters. If this is what you're saying, are you also saying that God was incapable of creating reality so that the journey doesn't matter?

Why do you assume that God is incapable of doing something just because he doesn't do it? Why do you assume that it is better to not have the journey?

 

[SkyWriting]

But on Earth, it appears we can't, even if we want to. Because of, well, free will, apparently.

It is impossible for humans reconcile free will and predetermination.
But God can manage it.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Why do you assume that God is incapable of doing something just because he doesn't do it? Why do you assume that it is better to not have the journey?

After 100 billion years in heaven, will you prefer to visit this universe again to remind yourself of what it's like to suffer? I think not.

Religion was invented to explain why we exist, yet your religion, if true, renders our existence on earth completely meaningless.

The ratio of finite to infinite is zero. The infinitude of heaven makes this life absolutely pointless.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Love requires freedom

God gives us the freedom to love him or burn forever in the lake of the dead. Even slaves have more freedom than that.

 

[Eloy Craft]

God gives us the freedom to love him or burn forever in the lake of the dead. Even slaves have more freedom than that.

It's more accurate to say; God gives us the freedom to love what we choose. If we love death we can choose it.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The ratio of finite to infinite is zero. The infinitude of heaven makes this life absolutely pointless.

You might be thinking of eternity as a measure of time. It's a moment without duration, beginning or end. What you are conceptualizing I think is a duration without end.

 

[Eloy Craft]

It is impossible for humans reconcile free will and predetermination.
But God can manage it.

Rational creatures are by definition self determined. Do you mean predestined? Jesus demonstrated free will on the cross as someone who was predetermined. But we say He freely chose to die or it's not a sacrifice is it?

 

[SkyWriting]

After 100 billion years in heaven, will you prefer to visit this universe again to remind yourself of what it's like to suffer? I think not.

Religion was invented to explain why we exist, yet your religion, if true, renders our existence on earth completely meaningless.

The ratio of finite to infinite is zero. The infinitude of heaven makes this life absolutely pointless.

Time is a temporary construct that separates us from judgment.
The next life will not experience time and it's negative aspects.

 

[SkyWriting]

God gives us the freedom to love him or burn forever in the lake of the dead. Even slaves have more freedom than that.

Annihilation in the lake of fire is the final reconciliation.
Both death and hell will be consumed there.
It's considered endless, but time does not exist there...so the term is somewhat accurate.

 

[gaara4158]

Yes, but barely, which is why we have the Shema, so we know that our love for God HAS to come with a love for people.

Yep the sum of all the commandments. Love God and our neighbor as ourself.

But it seems the two are at odds fairly often. God is seen commanding massacres, torturing people arbitrarily, and plaguing entire cities in the Bible. The free will that he has “allowed” is the source of countless evils in the world. How can God be just if he cares more about receiving our freely-given love than eliminating evil?

 

[bling]

But what then about all those who die before they're ever mature enough to learn any of this (assuming that dead children go to heaven)?

I do not have much in the way of scripture on this, but knowing God's Love and Lovers wanting to help others, I think those with Godly type Love will protect and preserve those who never had the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love (this is not a learning process to develop Godly type love, but a humbling process).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But it seems the two are at odds fairly often. God is seen commanding massacres, torturing people arbitrarily, and plaguing entire cities in the Bible. The free will that he has “allowed” is the source of countless evils in the world. How can God be just if he cares more about receiving our freely-given love than eliminating evil?

Part of the problem here, obviously, is the discordance between what a large number of people think is "evil" and what God thinks is "evil." Likewise, this goes for the discordance between one's thoughts about "justice" and God's thoughts about "justice."

 

[Eloy Craft]

But it seems the two are at odds fairly often. God is seen commanding massacres, torturing people arbitrarily, and plaguing entire cities in the Bible. The free will that he has “allowed” is the source of countless evils in the world. How can God be just if he cares more about receiving our freely-given love than eliminating evil?

I know if you don't believe there is a God or that the Israelites were really hearing His voice, this answer is insufficient.

God is the author of life and at that time He was dealing with man in a way that was good for the human race as a whole including all peoples of all times. If you know the story free will prevented the ban God imposed from being carried out as He intended. The idea was to wipe out entirely any remnant of the religions of the Canaanites. They failed to do a thorough job. They for the most part worshiped the powers of nature fertility being the chief among them . Temples with ritualized intercourse so the fields would be fertile that season and such. If they could have been more thorough some social ills that we inherited might not have happened. Anyway, the Hebrews considered them false gods and we now know they were fallen angels(demons) posing as gods. We know that what ever the eternal destiny is of those Pagans that worshiped those demons it's just and good. This was necessary to set up a nation of the chosen people to provide a familial and Holy Place for God to Incarnate on earth and bring in an age when God can be a personal being to all human kind with as few obstructions as possible.

 

[gaara4158]

Part of the problem here, obviously, is the discordance between what a large number of people think is "evil" and what God thinks is "evil." Likewise, this goes for the discordance between one's thoughts about "justice" and God's thoughts about "justice."

Yes. And if God’s ideas of good and evil are different to mine, why should I defer to his? How am I wrong to call God a self-centered agent of evil if he allows countless aeons of human suffering just so a handful might love him freely one day?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes. And if God’s ideas of good and evil are different to mine, why should I defer to his? How am I wrong to call God a self-centered agent of evil if he allows countless aeons of human suffering just so a handful might love him freely one day?

Because God is good and the fact that you can't "see" the actual social values for humanity that pour out of His Goodness and Holiness means that, for some reason, you're somehow spiritually blind. The upshot of this point is that, biblically speaking, it might not necessarily be your fault, or all your fault, that you are blind to the principles of righteousness, and thus, you simply don't see good and evil as they really are.

So.........just right off the bat, I wouldn't expect you to simply "defer" to God's Will without having come to some point where you've woken up to the fact that all that you've been spoon fed to think axiologically via Post-Enlightenment philosophy is also, somehow, a diabolical farce. I would expect someone in your position to stand his/her ground in the Face of God.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Part of the problem here, obviously, is the discordance between what a large number of people think is "evil" and what God thinks is "evil." Likewise, this goes for the discordance between one's thoughts about "justice" and God's thoughts about "justice."

Exactly. When God isn't considered the creator of all that is, then it's easy to subject Him to standards of judgement that only apply to creatures. A creature can never possess the information required to make a judgement against Him. One has to make God a much smaller God to do that.

 

[drstevej]

In Heaven our sin nature is removed and we freely obey.

==== Here is a parody I wrote (years ago) to answer the thread question======

Free Will in Heaven
(Adapted from and with apologies to Eric Clapton -- Tears in Heaven)

Beyond the door,
There's peace I'm sure.
And I know there's got to be
Free will in heaven.

Would you throw a fit,
If He controlled you in heaven?
Would it be the same,
If He bound your will in heaven?

You must be strong,
And carry on.
'Cause you know there's no free will
Here in heaven

=====

Thankfully, in glorification God eradicates my sin nature and eliminates any possibility of rebellion.

So much for the theory that for love to exist you have to be free to reject the other person.

There is love among the Three Persons of the God Head, yet I am not worried They will have a spat!

 

[gaara4158]

Because God is good and the fact that you can't "see" the actual social values for humanity that pour out of His Goodness and Holiness means that, for some reason, you're somehow spiritually blind. The upshot of this point is that, biblically speaking, it might not necessarily be your fault, or all your fault, that you are blind to the principles of righteousness, and thus, you simply don't see good and evil as they really are.

So.........just right off the bat, I wouldn't expect you to simply "defer" to God's Will without having come to some point where you've woken up to the fact that all that you've been spoon fed to think axiologically via Post-Enlightenment philosophy is also, somehow, a diabolical farce. I would expect someone in your position to stand his/her ground in the Face of God.

I can see why you’d say that if you accept God as some kind of ultimate moral arbiter, but it’s meaningless to someone who doesn’t. I have as much a right to judge God against my standards as he does to judge me against his. If he decides to smite me because I’d rather see billions of people live happily than suffer so a few might come to love this cosmic thug, so be it. I’ll die knowing I’m morally superior.