Free will compatible with Christian Theism?

JIMINZ · Nov 14, 2017

Halbhh said:
That's almost a similar wording, but not quite! (see at end for the corrected wording)

By scripture, our choices are not already-decided ahead of time.

Just one Old Testament example of real choice, not predetermined: Lev chapter 26 --

3 “ ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. 5 Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land."
...
14 “ ‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands,15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. "

We see this over and over in scripture, this pattern of real choices, and God saying what the outcomes of those real choices will be.

We do know God can foresee where we are heading at the moment -- what destination our current direction will lead to -- and thus He knows where we will go if we do not change our course, But He gave us each our own individual spirit which has an ability to change direction!

.
These verses do ask for a choice to be made, but in order for them to be a valid argument, for mankind's expression of Free Will, these verses would have had to been directed at mankind, instead of the Israelites,......as they were.

Therefore your argument does not relate to all of mankind, it only relates to those people to which the remarks by God were directed, only one people, the Jewish Nation of Israel, Gods' chosen people.

com7fy8 · Nov 14, 2017

"Oh, but, if humans do not have free wills, then how can they truly love God if they have no choice about if they love Him or not?"

This is what I think I have heard and read to be argued by people who believe in the basic idea of free will.

But I don't think love is a choice thing, but it is about our character being the way real love is. In chapter thirteen of Corinthians, our Apostle Paul talks about the nature of love, not what love chooses or does not choose. So, even if love will have us making certain choices, our character has so much to do with if our choices are loving or not. I think our character is our dictator of what we choose and can choose. So, for this reason, we can not really have a free will . . . if our choices are restricted to how our character really is . . . already.

Athée · Nov 14, 2017

Halbhh said:
That's almost a similar wording, but not quite! (see at end for the corrected wording)

By scripture, our choices are not already-decided ahead of time.

Just one Old Testament example of real choice, not predetermined: Lev chapter 26 --

3 “ ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. 5 Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land."
...
14 “ ‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands,15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. "

We see this over and over in scripture, this pattern of real choices, and God saying what the outcomes of those real choices will be.

We do know God can foresee where we are heading at the moment -- what destination our current direction will lead to -- and thus He knows where we will go if we do not change our course, But He gave us each our own individual spirit which has an ability to change direction!

Seems like you are saying that we have the power to overturn God's direct will. So if he decreed that Jesus should be born of Mary, in the line of David, that David could have just decided he wasn't into kids and the plan for human salvation would have been snuffed out by a single human decision.
Seems like a weak view of God but that is your prerogative of course

Athée · Nov 14, 2017

Hawkins said:
What humans don't actually understand is time. Einstein once put time is not a stable unit but speed/velocity is. It means that we humans don't actually what time is. Under most circumstance our conception will have to assume that time is a constant progressing evenly forward. This however is not an accurate assumption.

God's foreknowledge can go independent of our freewill. God has the omnipotence to choose not to know one when he's in hell. The one in hell still exercises his freewill without God's knowledge.

Our universe is not even the ultimate goal. Earth with its universe is just a temporary product. Heaven is God's goal. God can know everything before hand however it's not legitimate to bring anyone to heaven. He knows everything before hand but still He needs our behavior to be openly witnessed and judged on the Judgment Day for Him to legitimately brings us to heaven. Or else His realm is not a lawful realm and He can't be a fair God.

Thanks for your input but I am not so much interested foreknowledge as in this isea of determinism vs free will on Christian theism.

Athée · Nov 14, 2017

com7fy8 said:
In case I understand what you mean . . .

If God is loving and there is destiny for God, then we can't say He is responsible for the fact that there is evil. Also, if destiny means human free will is experienced but humans do not really have freedom . . . this is not God's fault, also . . . if He is destined, also.

But . . . about if it is loving for one being to control another > have you brought up children? Do you, or would you, just tell your children that they have free wills to do whatsoever they please - - because you love them? I would rather be brought up by God, than have all which my own free will could get me.

I think you are saying that it seems to be the case that we experience an ilkusionnof free will but that thisbia a good thing because a good and perfect God is in control.
Fair enough

Athée · Nov 14, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
These verses do ask for a choice to be made, but in order for them to be a valid argument, for mankind's expression of Free Will, these verses would have had to been directed at mankind, instead of the Israelites,......as they were.

Therefore your argument does not relate to all of mankind, it only relates to those people to which the remarks by God were directed, only one people, the Jewish Nation of Israel, Gods' chosen people.

So some people have free will and others have an illusion of free will?

Halbhh · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
Seems like you are saying that we have the power to overturn God's direct will. So if he decreed that Jesus should be born of Mary, in the line of David, that David could have just decided he wasn't into kids and the plan for human salvation would have been snuffed out by a single human decision.
Seems like a weak view of God but that is your prerogative of course

No, am I that bad a writer??? ha ha Let me try to clarify.

We are in a non-deterministic situation, here on Earth. By His design.

The future is not set ahead of time, except in the indirect sense of only certain things -- that when God has a plan, then when He decided it's time to make something happen, He can.

He is able, regardless of the unpredictable things we've done and regardless of the situation of the moment. Not at all to say He can't see much ahead -- He is perhaps like a very excellent weather man to use an analogy, that's my guess. This guess isn't important, but the basic situation is important -- we have real freedom, because our actions are not pre determined. When He decided it was time for Christ to come to Earth, then He made it happen, in that moment.

The Bible is full of examples of God waiting until the time is right. For all of this kind of thing, you can learn almost nothing by reading an individual verse. Instead, you need to read through full books, multiple. Then you start to see the big picture things like this.

com7fy8 · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
I think you are saying that it seems to be the case that we experience an ilkusionnof free will but that thisbia a good thing because a good and perfect God is in control.
Fair enough

Yes, I think, in our own egos we can overrate how much control we have; and then say God would not love us if we did not have the control which we d-i-c-t-a-t-e that we have. May be the free will of ego could be what atheistic and agnostic apologists would call "an imaginary friend".

In any case, I find it is a very good thing, how God is in control . . . considering how humans have been choosing to do things. And in my case, my free will has had nothing to do with loving anyone. Only God has gotten me to get anything right

At least speaking for me > I have been a perpetual bully whose treasure pleasure was to make unpopular kids cry, then I became a good-goody toe-shoes religious social misfit who was looking down on other people not of my religion. My free will was in swill. I was free from love.

Now my main concern is not doctrine and logic, but however I need to find out how to love any and all people while being pleasing to our Heavenly Father more and more the way Jesus is. So, my attention, in feeding on the Bible, is more about scripture like Ephesians 4:31-5:2, versus drawing conclusions so I can prove my ideas to be right.

Halbhh · Nov 14, 2017

com7fy8 said:
Yes, I think, in our own egos we can overrate how much control we have; and then say God would not love us if we did not have the control which we d-i-c-t-a-t-e that we have. May be the free will of ego could be what atheistic and agnostic apologists would call "an imaginary friend".

In any case, I find it is a very good thing, how God is in control . . . considering how humans have been choosing to do things. And in my case, my free will has had nothing to do with loving anyone. Only God has gotten me to get anything right

At least speaking for me > I have been a perpetual bully whose treasure pleasure was to make unpopular kids cry, then I became a good-goody toe-shoes religious social misfit who was looking down on other people not of my religion. My free will was in swill. I was free from love.

Now my main concern is not doctrine and logic, but however I need to find out how to love any and all people while being pleasing to our Heavenly Father more and more the way Jesus is. So, my attention, in feeding on the Bible, is more about scripture like Ephesians 4:31-5:2, versus drawing conclusions so I can prove my ideas to be right.

We know for sure that God is in control of everything that really matters, the ultimate things. We have no scriptural basis I know of to think He allows us only an illusion of agency though, only an illusion of being able to choose and making choices. There's something else though.... By His Grace, He aids us, guiding us, and with this help, we are able to progress on the path Christ set for us to walk on. The right analogy is that of a Parent holding a small child's hand, and helping them go the right way. We are allowed though to move our own legs! And also to choose whether to hold His hand.

Athée · Nov 14, 2017

Halbhh said:
No, am I that bad a writer??? ha ha Let me try to clarify.

We are in a non-deterministic situation, here on Earth. By His design.

The future is not set ahead of time, except in the indirect sense of only certain things -- that when God has a plan, then when He decided it's time to make something happen, He can.

He is able, regardless of the unpredictable things we've done and regardless of the situation of the moment. Not at all to say He can't see much ahead -- He is perhaps like a very excellent weather man to use an analogy, that's my guess. This guess isn't important, but the basic situation is important -- we have real freedom, because our actions are not pre determined. When He decided it was time for Christ to come to Earth, then He made it happen, in that moment.

The Bible is full of examples of God waiting until the time is right. For all of this kind of thing, you can learn almost nothing by reading an individual verse. Instead, you need to read through full books, multiple. Then you start to see the big picture things like this.

Could Mary have chosen not to be impregnated by God when God decided in that moment to make it happen?

Athée · Nov 14, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
Athée, the notion that a statement such as "God can make a square circle" actually says something clearly and distinctly at a semantic level is itself a very confused notion. I think that once you look at the semantic problem involved here due to the fact that the subjects are way too vague, you'll see that all this kind of playing around is not affirming anything that informs us in regard to the nature of the Biblical God. Can you see the semantic problem in the connotations of the terms?

Personally, I'm not even sure why anyone still bothers to ask these kinds of questions or to debate these kinds of trifling, confused issues, let alone use them as ANALOGIES that supposedly have some bearing upon issues of free will. It's ludicrous, really.

Well the semantic scopes of the refrants don't have much overlap if that is what you mean. They share properties like, being shapes, having 2 dimensions etc but in the main the point could have been made just as easily by saying can God make a reality such that A and not A are true inntbe same way at the same time.
Would that have been less ludicrous?

Good to hear from you as always

com7fy8 · Nov 14, 2017

Halbhh said:
We have no scriptural basis I know of to think He allows us only an illusion of agency though, only an illusion of being able to choose and making choices.

We do make choices, but how much control we really have is what I would question. But we not only choose, but we reap so much more than those little seeds we may sow > Galatians 6:7-8. Whether we reap all which comes with choosing Jesus, or reap otherwise, we get much more than we realized we were choosing.

Halbhh said:
There's something else though.... By His Grace, He aids us, guiding us, and with this help, we are able to progress on the path Chris set for us to walk on.

I also consider how >

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5). His resistance is against our will of pride, but His resistance is caring, because of how God's resistance keeps us from getting into as much trouble as our wrong choices could get for us.

Halbhh said:
The right analogy is that of a Parent holding a small child's hand, and helping them go the right way. We are allowed though to move our own legs! And also to choose whether to hold His hand.

Well, I think we might choose to not hold His hand, but I also think He does not let go . . . like if you know your child is choosing to let go so he or she can run out in the street . . . hopefully, you choose to hold on to your child's hand.

Halbhh · Nov 14, 2017

double post removed

Halbhh · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
Could Mary have chosen not to be impregnated by God when God decided in that moment to make it happen?

I think so, though it would have been so unlikely a choice for someone like her. Mary wasn't someone wanting to go away from God. Instead, she wanted to do God's will.

46And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—

She was indeed blessed, as Elizabeth said.

com7fy8 · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
Could Mary have chosen not to be impregnated by God when God decided in that moment to make it happen?

From another angle, if I may, Athée . . . her character had a lot to do with what she would choose . . . and what she could choose.

And, with this, God's nature is love; so what He destines has to do with love.

And you might have noticed how a human's love . . . whomever and whatever that person prefers . . . can be what destines what that person can choose.

Serving Zion · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
Could Mary have chosen not to be impregnated by God when God decided in that moment to make it happen?

Luke 1:38 shows that she did make that choice: “I am the Lord’s servant,” said Mary. “May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel left her.

It is important to notice that she did not choose this sinfully (so as to be most favoured among women - ego/pride), but she chose to allow God's will in her life, because she was a devoted servant to Him. This is how God gets things done (Matthew 26:39, Philippians 2:8-9, Ephesians 4:8). Please feel comfortable to ask for explanation if you have yet to learn the depths of those scriptures, especially how He "took captivity captive". It's quite essential to the topic, so far as crafting reality with skill.

JIMINZ · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
So some people have free will and others have an illusion of free will?

.
No, those verses are speaking of a Specific set of Choices which God wanted them to make, during a Specific period of time, it wasn't an illusion they were told to choose.

But then again, if you are asked to make a choice, are you really expressing your Free Will?

Now choosing something without being asked to choose, then that doesn't mean a person has Free Will either, as I have previously explained in another post.

JIMINZ · Nov 14, 2017

Athée said:
So some people have free will and others have an illusion of free will?

.
Read my post again, I never said anyone has Free Will.

Athée · Nov 15, 2017

Halbhh said:
I think so, though it would have been so unlikely a choice for someone like her. Mary wasn't someone wanting to go away from God. Instead, she wanted to do God's will.

46And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—

She was indeed blessed, as Elizabeth said.

In that case God would have been mistaken about what would happen in human history. Is that something you also think is possible?

Halbhh · Nov 15, 2017

Athée said:
In that case God would have been mistaken about what would happen in human history. Is that something you also think is possible?

Well, going back again to the weather prediction analogy I used above, which is my own guess about how it works, a good weatherman can know that some day a hurricane will come, even if he doesn't already know precisely which day yet. Later, before it hits, he will indeed know that precise day, as it moves within his range of accurate forecasting. In this analogy, which I'm guessing is how it is, my guess is that His forecasting is rather superb. So, knowing a storm will come, and being ready, then when He sees the exact time approaching finally, He can accomplish whatever He intends, since we do know with clarity from scripture that He is indeed able. Sometimes people wrongly guess this is a very reduced version of all-knowing. It's actually an overwhelmingly amazing level of knowing, being able to see all things in the present tense, everywhere at once, and also able to anticipate all of the near-future, and much of the more distant future, including seeing powerful trends clearly even a great number of years away from culmination, and knowing that is where that trend will arrive some time. Even that alone is very powerful. Altogether, this would be a mighty level of knowing. I don't have to guess correctly on any aspect of this, and it's not even important if I miss something or get something wrong. It's just my best guess at how to fit all of the scriptures together. The one thing we should know we need to avoid is that common practice many do of making an idea, and then carefully selecting a few verses (or many) to support it, and also ignoring other verses that contradict it. I'm ready, and would be delighted, to learn more and differently than these ideas. I might have 2 details correct, and 2 wrong. This wouldn't even matter, but just for my curiosity. Here's an invaluable tip though for reading scripture -- put aside all preconceptions/doctrines/prejudices, all. Try to get the real meanings, from the totality of a book, reading fully and listening well. Be able to have open questions, and be cautious not to trust doctrines people preach, but instead rely on more reading of more books in the scripture. In this way, in time, you will really have a good knowledge of valuable things many just entirely miss, not reading this way.

Free will compatible with Christian Theism?

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