Free Will challenge

[TedT]

adam, eve weren't sinners.

Adam was created VERY GOOD with a divine nature, and no sin in him whatsoever, but he violated that nature to commit the first sin.

The words of Genesis 2:18 are very familiar to us today: “The Lord God said, ‘It is not good [lo tov] for the man to be alone.’”

Have you ever considered the implication of this NOT GOODNESS being corrected before everything was judged to be VERY GOOD, tov meod, verse 1:31? Does it not imply that GOD created something as not good or at least something has already gone bad...?

How could Adam be alone when GOD was in full fellowship with him? How does the presence of GOD need to be augmented by someone else for Adam to be 'not alone' in a bad ie, not good, way that must be corrected? Did GOD make a mistake or did something change within HIS creation so Adam was alone? Do we not believe that the only thing that can separate us from GOD is the free will choice to be sinful, to rebel against HIM?

And how does GOD fix this lo tov? HE brings the animals to Adam to name them and to see if his helpmeet was among them: Gen 2:20 The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adame no suitable helper was found.

helper: S5828. ezer
Definition: a help, helper

suitable: S5048: neged:
in front of, in sight of, opposite to
Does anyone have a reason so many, ie, most, commentators of this verse leave out any reference to the word suitable, that is, “in front of, in sight of, opposite to” as to its meaning to the verse or to the English, suitable? It seems like a wild guess as to what it means here...

So Adam did not just need a companion (perhaps, wife as most commentators suggest?) but he needed help with something... and the help was not just a general help such as with his gardening job but a specialized, suitable, helping as by a teacher, mentor or example perhaps.

Does this need for a specialized helper impact at all upon the question: "Whose idea was it that Adam look among the animals for his suitable, ie specialized, helper?" GOD knew HE had Eve in the wings for him so it must have been Adam's idea that an animal might be suitable, right, not GOD's? So why did GOD give acquiesce to Adam's wanting to look among the animals for his helper instead of just telling him, "Nope, I got someone special for you!?" It seems like there was some separation between them after all, eh? Some lack of communication between GOD and HIS perfect, faithful, creation? Some miscommunication, perhaps?

Or does it imply that Adam was not as he was created, ie perfect and faithful, but was being a little rebellious to GOD, ie, unfaithful in his heart against what GOD wanted for him? Does this story imply that Adam was sinful at this time in the garden? Was this why he and Eve were characterized as `RM, erm, that is, naked, the exact same word also used of the serpent to describe his being cunning in evil?

If so, then this coming into the garden cannot have been their creation because they had had time after their creation to understand GOD's commands and to break at least one of them to become sinful.

Since the rabbis were convinced Adam and Eve were created in the garden, they rejected the idea they were already sinners when they arrived in the garden [GOD cannot create evil people - at least, not until HE needs to do so for some unknown reason, a reference to the inherited sin fiasco ...another blasphemy altogether...] so they interpreted `rm as naked, not cunning in evil though the spelling was exactly the same. The Church Fathers agreed with the Hebrew scholars and ignored the implications of this story. Eisegesis can sure be fun, eh?

 

[Gup20]

Then you don't understand the Biblical "righteousness" of Genesis 15:6 nor Romans 4:2-3.

I'd be happy to explain it to you.

[Gal 3:6-9, 14-15, 18, 26, 29 NASB20] 6 Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers [and sisters,] I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. ... 26 For you are all sons [and daughters] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
​

Here we see Apostle Paul quotes Genesis 15:6. He says "it is those who are of faith who are the sons of Abraham." It says God "preached the gospel to Abraham." It says that "those who are of faith are blessed (made righteous) with Abraham, the believer in the gospel. The purpose of this promise to Abraham is so that in Christ, the righteousness given to Abraham would come to all who believe so that we, too, could receive the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith (indwelling, regeneration, circumcision of the heart). The "human relations" means human adoption. Specifically, this righteousness comes through Abraham's covenant, but once ratified (as Abraham's covenant was in the latter half of Genesis 15 where God has him split 5 creatures in half - how covenants were ratified in that day) can no longer have conditions added to it, so The Law which was given to Moses 430 years later cannot add conditions to Abraham's covenant of righteousness through faith. This in an inheritable covenant because God said "and to your seed" when making the covenant. In verse 26, 29 we see that our faith FIRST makes us adopted heirs, and if adopted, then qualified as Abraham's descendants and heirs of the promise of righteousness.

[Rom 4:9-14, 16-17 NASB20] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

Paul makes an interesting point - Abraham was made righteous BEFORE he was circumcised, and he was circumcised as a SEAL of that righteousness of faith (more on that in a moment). Paul again quotes Genesis 15:6 here, but says its purpose was "so that Abraham might be the father of all who believe" SO THAT RIGHTEOUSNESS MIGHT BE CREDITED TO THEM. How is it credited to them? When they have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had (while uncircumcised). Abraham's promise that he becomes the father of MANY NATIONS (not just the one nation of Israel) is through this adoption and God's covenant with him of righteousness by faith. Saved by grace through faith means ADOPTED.

[Deu 30:6 NASB20] 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants [seed], to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.​

[Eze 36:26 NASB20] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB20] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.​

So in Abraham's covenant of righteousness through faith in the gospel, a key aspect of it was circumcision. However, it's clear that the "promised intention" was that the circumcision would one day be "of the heart, by the spirit" meaning the indwelling or regeneration of the Holy Spirit. This knowledge makes Paul's distinction in Romans 4 absolutely critical: "faith that he had while uncircumcised." Abraham's faith was not by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit... the Holy Spirit wouldn't be given until the day of Pentecost after Jesus' ascension. Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8, 16) was a human faith without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had - an unregenerate faith - we are qualified as Abraham's descendants and heirs of the righteousness that was credited to Abraham.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

Here we have 2 explicit passages which unequivocally state that the indwelling regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one has believed, not before. Moreover, that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is equivalent to the circumcision Seal of the Righteousness of faith which Paul says Abraham had in Romans 4.

All of this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that faith merely qualifies one for adoption and that is is being a descendant of Abraham which qualifies one for righteousness. As such, Total Depravity is Totally Irrelevant as total depravity is not prohibitive of human adoption.

[Isa 54:1 NASB20] 1 "Shout for joy, infertile one, you who have not given birth [to any child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.​

This wholesale takedown of T in TULIP undermines the entire doctrine. I was able to do this without even mentioning the Bible's most salient chapter on "free will."

 

[Gup20]

The words of Genesis 2:18 are very familiar to us today: “The Lord God said, ‘It is not good [lo tov] for the man to be alone.’”

Have you ever considered the implication of this NOT GOODNESS being corrected before everything was judged to be VERY GOOD, tov meod, verse 1:31? Does it not imply that GOD created something as not good or at least something has already gone bad...?

Many Bible scholars view the style of Genesis 1 & 2 as Genesis 1 being an overview of all of creation and Genesis 2 being a "zoom in" on day 6 - from the perspective of the beginning of Adam's history. God didn't declare the work "good" until the end of each day's work... nor "very good" until after all the work was completed.

[Gen 1:27-28 NASB20] 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."​

 

[TedT]

Adam was created VERY GOOD with a divine nature, and no sin in him whatsoever,

I agree of course but I'm not sure the garden was the place for this perfection. So let's look closely to see if there are any clues about the very good, tov meod, in the garden:

First:
Verse Gen 1:31 And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good (tov meod). refers to everything... which must include the evil angels of the satanic rebellion who were, at that time, being held in chains of darkness in Sheol,

2 Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (literally: Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement. ...and everything is very good. It seems to me that this everything somehow includes these evil angels as very good or everything does not refer to some beings who existed and fell into sin before this earthly creation.

Now there is no proof yet that Adam existed before the garden and fell into sin before his earthly body but IF HE DID he might not be included in the summation the everything that was very good, just like the evil angels are not included.

Second:
It is not proven that very good refers to a state of being and not to a purpose. If the purpose of God's creation of the earth was as a reform school to chasten, convert and sanctify His fallen, sinful Church then HIS creation of the earth for the purpose of the redemption of His church could indeed be called very good even though part of the church was already fallen and not doing so good.

So is there proof that they were sinful in the garden? Just as much as (ie, no more than) any theological stance has...

First, let's look at Genesis 2:18, which says straight out that Adam's situation in Eden was “not good” in GOD's sight. Of course, this is not irrefutable proof [Adam was a sinner], because it is possible to interpret “not good” so that it means something other than “Adam was in rebellion to GOD's will for him”. Genesis 2:18 also says straight out that Adam was “alone” in the omnipresent GOD's garden.

Of course, this is not irrefutable proof because it is possible to interpret “alone” so that it means “unable to produce children”, rather than “separated in spirit from GOD like after a big fall.”

Genesis 2:18 also says that GOD had to make an “help meet”, (NIV - suitable helper), to fix Adam's bad situation, but this is not irrefutable proof either because it is possible to interpret “helper” so that it means “reproductive partner” rather than “someone who would be instrumental in convicting Adam of his spiritual rebellion.”

And “suitable” is not irrefutable proof either, because it too can be interpreted as meaning “better than any animal” rather than “because Adam had already rejected GOD, someone else whom he would accept as a marriage partner so that he could learn about his spiritual marriage to HIM”.

 

[Gup20]

I agree of course but I'm not sure the garden was the place for this perfection. So let's look closely to see if there are any clues about the very good, tov meod, in the garden:

First:
Verse Gen 1:31 And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good (tov meod). refers to everything... which must include the evil angels of the satanic rebellion who were, at that time, being held in chains of darkness in Sheol,

2 Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (literally: Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement. ...and everything is very good. It seems to me that this everything somehow includes these evil angels as very good or everything does not refer to some beings who existed and fell into sin before this earthly creation.

Now there is no proof yet that Adam existed before the garden and fell into sin before his earthly body but IF HE DID he might not be included in the summation the everything that was very good, just like the evil angels are not included.

Second:
It is not proven that very good refers to a state of being and not to a purpose. If the purpose of God's creation of the earth was as a reform school to chasten, convert and sanctify His fallen, sinful Church then HIS creation of the earth for the purpose of the redemption of His church could indeed be called very good even though part of the church was already fallen and not doing so good.

So is there proof that they were sinful in the garden? Just as much as (ie, no more than) any theological stance has...

First, let's look at Genesis 2:18, which says straight out that Adam's situation in Eden was “not good” in GOD's sight. Of course, this is not irrefutable proof [Adam was a sinner], because it is possible to interpret “not good” so that it means something other than “Adam was in rebellion to GOD's will for him”. Genesis 2:18 also says straight out that Adam was “alone” in the omnipresent GOD's garden.

Of course, this is not irrefutable proof because it is possible to interpret “alone” so that it means “unable to produce children”, rather than “separated in spirit from GOD like after a big fall.”

Genesis 2:18 also says that GOD had to make an “help meet”, (NIV - suitable helper), to fix Adam's bad situation, but this is not irrefutable proof either because it is possible to interpret “helper” so that it means “reproductive partner” rather than “someone who would be instrumental in convicting Adam of his spiritual rebellion.”

And “suitable” is not irrefutable proof either, because it too can be interpreted as meaning “better than any animal” rather than “because Adam had already rejected GOD, someone else whom he would accept as a marriage partner so that he could learn about his spiritual marriage to HIM”.

See above:

Many Bible scholars view the style of Genesis 1 & 2 as Genesis 1 being an overview of all of creation and Genesis 2 being a "zoom in" on day 6 - from the perspective of the beginning of Adam's history. God didn't declare the work "good" until the end of each day's work... nor "very good" until after all the work was completed.

[Gen 1:27-28 NASB20] 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."​

 

[TedT]

I agree with you, Paul. Rom 5:12 says "death spread to all mankind" it does not say "sin spread to all mankind."

I agree also:
GOD abhors evil and would not create it by any means, not by fiat, not by a work of sovereignty which serves HIS loving righteousness and cannot trumpt it, not by a surrogate like Adam and not by a system of 'nature' ie, the inheritance of sin like it was some kind of genetic trait, sigh.

IF original sin means that we inherit a sinful nature from Adam and NOT that we are guilty of our own free will decision to sin, then I cannot accept it until some questions are answered to my satisfaction...

1. Sinner only by a free will choice to sin
IF we are created as sinful without any choice to be sinful then it stands to reason that this lack of mens rea means I am not guilty of any sin / crime and should not be held accountable OR IF I am guilty, that I must have intended to sin to get a sinful nature. If I have a sinful nature from Adam then it is either Adam who is guilty of all my sins or it is GOD because HE did not have to create me a member of Adam's family!

2. Against scripture
I need to know how the original sin doctrine doesn't contradict the doctrine so clearly laid out in Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (us) shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked (THOSE WHO CHOSE BY THEIR FREE WILL TO BE WICKED) shall be upon him. How can we say neither the foetus nor the infant dies for their own sin if they have no chance to choose sin? Do we not say they die in Adam's sin? This contradiction must be rethought as original sin is completely inadequate..

3. Death proves sin
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, implies death proves sin. So yes people die at all ages but they must die for their own sin, not anyone else's: Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; says it clearly.

4. Loving righteousness cannot create evil
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. Can darkness come from light? Can stagnant foul water come from a spring of pure life giving water? Of course not and neither can dark (evil ) come from Light (loving righteousness). This foolishness is like striking a match and expecting dark to fill the room!

GOD cannot create evil people by any means including forcing them to be born without their aquiessence into Adam's sin. Orthodoxy only needs this blasphemous doctrine because they have completely accepted the hypothesis that we are created in sin on earth so there is no time for us to sin by our free will in the womb.

1 John 2:16 For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-- comes not from the Father but from the world. To create us with a sin nature means that all these things comes from our nature as HE created it. This verse denies that very openly.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts --murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Is 'heart' another name for our created 'human nature' or 'sinful nature'? Then you know what I think...

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other, they are in conflict! One cannot produce the other as a fulfillment of any purpose whatsoever. How is it reasonable to think GOD creates that which HE is in conflict with...? GOD's Kingdom is not divided by the creation of evil as it would be IF HE created it: Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. ...in the context that Satan will not cast out demons which must extrapolate to therefore Christ would never be involved with creating evil.

IF it is blasphemous to say Jesus cast out demons by the finger of Satan, how much more to say that HE created all human evil by creating us in Adam's evil and liable to judgement?? And this is also in the context of: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. If these things are outside of the Kingdom of God then GOD as the HIGH KING cannot nor would not (if HE could) ever create them or the impulse to do them or a nature that would inevitably lead to them. And does not the creation of evil create dissensions, factions within HIS Kingdom??? Duh, it suddenly creates eternal evil enemies but no dissensions or factions??? <headshake, facepalm> Put this in the context of the sinful good (elect) seed who are born / created sinful yet are sown / born as people of the kingdom, Matt 13:38 and as believers not condemned for their sins, Jn 3:18 though born / created as sinners.

I contend that before we were sown into the earth by the Son of Man, we chose to become people of the kingdom by our free will decision to accept YHWH as our GOD and HIS Son as our saviour from all sin by faith, not proof. Some chose to reject HIS claims to be our GOD and put their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god and by so doing made themselves unable to ever fulfil the purpose for their creation, unable to be redeemed as having put themselves by their free will outside of HIS saving grace and fit only to be banished to the outer darkness. Some of the elect people of the kingdom rejected HIS call for the judgement upon these reprobate and became sinful themselves, forcing the postponement of the judgement until they could be made holy, that is, in total agreement with all HIS plans, especially the judgment, Matt 13, the parable of the good seed and the tares.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. THESE are the things GOD creates - wherein is there any place for sin and evil to be created?

5. HIS Bride as filthy rags
Since the wedding of the Lamb to His Bride finishes the Bible story after all evil is vanished from this reality, it would seem to be the culmination of the story, the whole reason why we were created, the purpose in fact of our creation.

I need to know how this purpose is enhanced by our being created in Adam's sin where we are sick and evil and the best we can do is filthy rags (we all know the allusion here). Orthodoxy claims HE proved HE could create innocents with a free will so there is no reason to put us into Adam's blood line at all unless HE wanted us to be evil in HIS sight and this was HIS method. I have asked this question of orthodox believers for years and have found no reason let alone a good reason for why HE would do this.

It is as if HE could only have a perfect Bride if HE first created her as grossly sick and evil, perhaps the grosser the better. This doctrine severely limits HIS creative ability as if HE ran out of the power to create innocents and could only create sinners.

I say "universal judgement" because God cursed mankind, animal kind, plant kind, and the ground itself... a universal judgement for a single sin.

Please consider:
the curse on all worldly things and systems is not universal at all as proven by the fact of there being elect and holy angels in the universe.

 

[TedT]

See above:

The zoom of Gen 2 does NOT answer the problems of the concepts of very good not good, `rm nor any of the other things I mentioned...

 

[Clare73]

I'd be happy to explain it to you.

[Gal 3:6-9, 14-15, 18, 26, 29 NASB20] 6 Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, recognize that
it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.​

Very thorough. . .
Abraham's righteousness was by faith in the promise (Seed, Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:16) of Genesis 15:5.
And those who are of faith in Jesus Christ (the promised Seed) are children of Abraham.

8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers [and sisters,]

I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. ... 26 For you are all sons [and daughters] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Here we see Apostle Paul quotes Genesis 15:6. He says "it is those who are of faith who are the sons of Abraham." It says God "preached the gospel to Abraham." It says that "those who are of faith are blessed (made righteous) with Abraham, the believer in the gospel. The purpose of this promise to Abraham is so that in Christ, the righteousness given to Abraham would come to all who believe so that we, too, could receive the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith (indwelling, regeneration, circumcision of the heart).

The "human relations" means human adoption.

Actually, by speaking "in terms of human relations" (Gr: "according to man"), Paul is saying that he is giving us a human example, an example from everyday life, regarding human covenants.

Specifically, this righteousness comes through Abraham's covenant,

Actually, Scripture states in Genesis 15:6 that it comes through believing in the Promise of Genesis 15:5 (of Seed, Jesus Christ), not through Abraham's covenant of the land grant (Genesis 15:9-21) and God's pledge to be Abraham's God and the God of his descendants (Genesis 17).
So righteousness is by faith in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ), not through Abraham's covenant.

but once ratified (as Abraham's covenant was in the latter half of Genesis 15 where God has him split 5 creatures in half - how covenants were ratified in that day) can no longer have conditions added to it, so The Law which was given to Moses 430 years later cannot add conditions to Abraham's covenant of righteousness through faith.

So is it righteousness through Abraham's covenant, or righteousness through faith in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ)?

This in an inheritable covenant because God said "and to your seed" when making the covenant. In verse 26, 29 we see that our faith FIRST makes us adopted heirs, and if adopted, then qualified as Abraham's descendants and heirs of the promise of righteousness.

We are not heirs "of a promise of righteousness," we are heirs "according to promise" of Galatians 3:16, wherein all promises were spoken to Christ alone, the promised Seed.
And in Christ, we are heirs of the blessings promised to Abraham, including the eternal (everlasting) land grant (Genesis 17:8, Genesis 48:4), fulfilled to the patriarchs, not in Canaan where they never lived, but in the better country--the heavenly one. Therefore, God did not break his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession" (Hebrews 11:13-16).

There is no "promise of righteousness" in the OT, there is the promise of Christ who, by faith, is our righteousness.

[Rom 4:9-14, 16-17 NASB20] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

Paul makes an interesting point - Abraham was made righteous BEFORE he was circumcised, and he was circumcised as a SEAL of that righteousness of faith (more on that in a moment).

Paul's point there is that Abraham was not justified, declared righteous (Romans 4:2-3) by works (circumcision), but by faith.
Justification is a declaration of, a sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge; forensical.
No guilt means no condemnation.
No condemnation means salvation.
Salvation means rebirth.
Therefore, justification/righteousness by faith actually means regeneration.
So Abraham was born again.
Although the OT saints did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they were nevertheless born again.

Paul again quotes Genesis 15:6 here, but says its purpose was "so that Abraham might be the father of all who believe" SO THAT RIGHTEOUSNESS MIGHT BE CREDITED TO THEM. How is it credited to them? When they have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had (while uncircumcised).

The gospel which Abraham believed was "All nations shall be blessed through you." (Galatians 3:8)
The Abrahamic covenant contained the gospel (Genesis 12:3, Genesis 18:18, Genesis 22:18).

Abraham's promise that he becomes the father of MANY NATIONS (not just the one nation of Israel) is through this adoption and God's covenant with him of righteousness by faith.
Saved by grace through faith means ADOPTED.

Actually, "saved" means salvation from the wrath of God's condemnation (Romans 5:9) on sin,
by the remission of that sin through faith,
resulting in a sentence of acquittal of guilt (justification) and adoption as his son.
"Saved by grace through faith" actually means "saved not by works, but by faith"(Ephesians 2:8-9), which results in adoption.

[Deu 30:6 NASB20] 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants [seed], to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.
[Eze 36:26 NASB20] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
[Rom 2:28-29 NASB20] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.​

So in Abraham's covenant of righteousness through faith in the gospel, a key aspect of it was circumcision.

Circumcision was the symbol, sign of total consecration to God by the covenant, the cutting off of the flesh, as in the NT we die to the flesh in baptism (Colossians 2:11-12).

However, it's clear that the "promised intention" was that the circumcision would one day be "of the heart, by the spirit" meaning the indwelling or regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, "of the heart" was not a new thing, or a NT thing, it was to be of the heart from the beginning (Deuteronomy 30:4-6).

This knowledge makes Paul's distinction in Romans 4 absolutely critical: "faith that he had while uncircumcised." Abraham's faith was not by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit... the Holy Spirit wouldn't be given until the day of Pentecost after Jesus' ascension.

Pentecost was not about rebirth of the apostles. That happened in John 20:22.
It was about special filling (Acts 2:4) and empowerment of them to preach Christ.
For the Holy Spirit operated in the regenerated saints throughout the OT, even though he did not indwell them. . .Saul comes to mind.

Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8, 16) was a human faith without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Abraham's faith was by regeneration and operation of the Holy Spirit in him, as the Holy Spirit operated in other OT saints who were likewise born again.

When we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had - an unregenerate faith - we are qualified as Abraham's descendants and heirs of the righteousness that was credited to Abraham.

There is no unregenerate faith. The OT saints were born again, although the Holy Spirit did not indwell them.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

The seal was a sign of ownership because of regeneration. It was not regeneration itself.

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a special empowering of the Holy Spirit in the regenerate for the work of the gospel, it is not the rebirth.​

Here we have 2 explicit passages which unequivocally state that the indwelling regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one has believed, not before.

Not quite. . .in neither case was it regeneration. One was a mark of ownership and the other was a special empowering for work, both of them in those who were already born again (the apostles) when they received the Holy Spirit previously (John 20:22).

Moreover, that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is equivalent to the circumcision Seal of the Righteousness of faith which Paul says Abraham had in Romans 4.

Again, not quite.
In the NT, sealing by the Holy Spirit is not the same as regeneration.
The seal is a sign of ownership (Ephesians 1:13-14).
While regeneration is so that he may then indwell us.
Likewise, regeneration by him and indwelling of him are also not the same, where the former is a one-time event and the latter is an on-going event.

All of this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that faith merely qualifies one for adoption and that is is being a descendant of Abraham which qualifies one for righteousness.

Scripture specifically states otherwise.
"Abraham believed God and it (belief) was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6)
Actually, faith qualifies one for righteousness, which righteousness then qualifies one for adoption.
Likewise, all those in Christ, a descendant of Abraham, are also the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29)... inheriting all the promises made to the Seed, who is Christ alone. (Galatians 3:16)

As such, Total Depravity is Totally Irrelevant as
total depravity is not prohibitive of human adoption.

Actually, it's not total depravity that keeps one from adoption by God, it is unbelief that keeps one from such adoption, because it keeps one from salvation which results in adoption.

[Isa 54:1 NASB20] 1 "Shout for joy, infertile one, you who have not given birth [to any child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.​

This wholesale takedown of T in TULIP

Hardly. . .you did not demonstrate that faith can be apart from regeneration and the operation of the Holy Spirit.
You assumed it, not taking into consideration the operation of the Holy Spirit in the regenerate OT saints, even though they did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

undermines the entire doctrine. I was able to do this without even mentioning the Bible's most salient chapter on "free will."

Actually, you really weren't able, and you really didn't take it down. . .but you were thorough. . .and what does free will have to do with it?

 

[Gup20]

I agree also:
GOD abhors evil and would not create it by any means, not by fiat, not by a work of sovereignty which serves HIS loving righteousness and cannot trumpt it, not by a surrogate like Adam and not by a system of 'nature' ie, the inheritance of sin like it was some kind of genetic trait, sigh.

IF original sin means that we inherit a sinful nature from Adam and NOT that we are guilty of our own free will decision to sin, then I cannot accept it until some questions are answered to my satisfaction...

1. Sinner only by a free will choice to sin
IF we are created as sinful without any choice to be sinful then it stands to reason that this lack of mens rea means I am not guilty of any sin / crime and should not be held accountable OR IF I am guilty, that I must have intended to sin to get a sinful nature. If I have a sinful nature from Adam then it is either Adam who is guilty of all my sins or it is GOD because HE did not have to create me a member of Adam's family!

I think the scripture is quite clear... we have dual natures.

[Gen 3:22 NASB20] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take [fruit] also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--​

The question is - what is the sin nature and what causes it? I think the Bible actually tells us this:

[Heb 2:14-16 NASB20] 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For clearly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham.

[Rom 8:6, 10, 15-17 NASB20] 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, ... 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. ... 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons [and daughters] by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Adam's judgement was the curse of death, and that death spread to all men. That death is inherited by all of Adam's descendants. Until Christ, all deserved that death because all had their own sins. It is man's fear of death which enslaves him to the sinful nature to obey its desires. Salvation frees us from the fear of death. This is the 'good news' of the gospel. Blessing and not cursing... life and not death.

2. Against scripture
I need to know how the original sin doctrine doesn't contradict the doctrine so clearly laid out in Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (us) shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked (THOSE WHO CHOSE BY THEIR FREE WILL TO BE WICKED) shall be upon him. How can we say neither the foetus nor the infant dies for their own sin if they have no chance to choose sin? Do we not say they die in Adam's sin? This contradiction must be rethought as original sin is completely inadequate..

3. Death proves sin
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, implies death proves sin. So yes people die at all ages but they must die for their own sin, not anyone else's: Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; says it clearly.

Ezekiel and Jeremiah were both prophets and were speaking of a future condition. However, The Law speaks of how it now is under Adam's judgment:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

There is this concept in The Law of Moses where children who have no yet reached the age of decision are under their parents guardianship, and the choices parents make for themselves affect also their underage children. Ezekiel and Jeremiah prophesy of a time when each person who sins will die for their sin and the sin of the father will not be punished in the sons. Paul alludes to this concept in the New Testament as well when he says:

[1Co 7:14 NASB20] 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.​

So there will be a resurrection of EVERY HUMAN BEING who has ever lived when Adam's corporate judgement (the first death) is repealed. There will then be individual judgements at the Great White Throne judgement, and for some this will mean a second death.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

The great white throne judgement is what Ezekiel and Jeremiah were prophesying about... that will be where people are judged individually rather than corporately like Adam's judgement. It is the great white throne judgement where our faith in Christ makes us guiltless before the judge.

[Rev 20:13-14 NASB20] 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Please consider:
the curse on all worldly things and systems is not universal at all as proven by the fact of there being elect and holy angels in the universe.

This is the scripture I had in mind when I said "universal."

[Rom 8:20-22 NASB20] 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected [it,] in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

 

[Gup20]

Very thorough. . .
Abraham's righteousness was by faith in the promise (Seed, Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:16) of Genesis 15:5.
And those who are of faith in Jesus Christ (the promised Seed) are children of Abraham.

I agree... Abraham was made righteous by his faith in the promise - actually, more specifically, his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. For Gal 3:8 says God preached the gospel to him (all the nations will be blessed in you), and 3:16 says that God made covenant with Abraham and his SEED (singular) and that seed was Christ. So God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when Abraham believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, he was made righteous.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB20] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed [zera, singular] be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness.​

The seed God is talking about in Genesis 15:5 is Jesus Christ. So God literally tells Abraham good news about Jesus Christ, and when Abraham believes the gospel, God credits him with righteousness.

Now in Genesis 17 it lays the foundation for ADOPTION as descendants. The covenant is about more than just land rights.

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB20] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall you be named Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.​

So God just gets done saying he would be the "father of a multitude of nations" and then promises an everlasting covenant to Abraham and to his 'seed.' The implication is clear that the 'seed' would be offspring from many nations, not just the nation of Israel.

God just got done making promises to Abraham about his seed in Genesis 15, and makes a blood covenant with Abraham where He has Abraham split 5 animals in half and passes between them as a pillar of fire (how blood covenants were ratified in those days).

Actually, by speaking "in terms of human relations" (Gr: "according to man"), Paul is saying that he is giving us a human example, an example from everyday life, regarding human covenants.

Actually, Scripture states in Genesis 15:6 that it comes through believing in the Promise of Genesis 15:5 (of Seed, Jesus Christ), not through Abraham's covenant of the land grant (Genesis 15:9-21) and God's pledge to be Abraham's God and the God of his descendants (Genesis 17).
So righteousness is by faith in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ), not through Abraham's covenant.

So the promise to Abraham was to Abraham and to his seed (descendants). To be qualified as an inheritor of this promise, you must be Abraham or a descendant of Abraham. I'm not saying faith in this covenant is what qualifies one as a descendant. Abraham had faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.. when we the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we are in essence part of him, and adopted as descendants.

[Rom 4:11-12, 16-17 NASB20] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

Abraham was the only one made righteous directly for their faith. The rest of us INHERIT it from him.

So is it righteousness through Abraham's covenant, or righteousness through faith in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ)?
We are not heirs of a promise of righteousness, we are heirs according to promise of Galatians 3:16, where all promises were spoken to Christ alone, the promised Seed.
And in Christ, we are heirs of the blessings promised to Abraham, including the eternal (everlasting) land grant (Genesis 17:8, Genesis 48:4), fulfilled to the patriarchs, not in Canaan where they never lived, but in the better country--the heavenly one. Therefore, God did not break his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession" (Hebrews 11:13-16).
Paul's point there is that Abraham was not justified, declared righteous (Romans 4:2-3) by works (circumcision), but by faith.
Justification is a declaration of, a sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge; forensical.
No guilt means no condemnation.
No condemnation means salvation.
Salvation means rebirth.
Therefore, justification/righteousness by faith actually means regeneration.
So Abraham was born again.
Although the OT saints did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they were nevertheless born again.
The gospel which Abraham believed was "All nations shall be blessed through you." (Galatians 3:8)
The Abrahamic covenant contained the gospel (Genesis 12:3, Genesis 18:18, Genesis 22:18).

I think Abram's name change is one evidence of his "born again" status... yet... born again in the same sense as he was circumcised in his flesh, and not in the heart by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God was establishing the pattern, though all of it was not yet available (which is why it was promised to come) When Abraham died, he still went to hell to await the death of Christ where Christ's righteousness was fed into the covenant.

[Luk 16:23 NASB20] 23 "And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms.​

Now he was in the paradise part of hell which had no torment, but nonetheless, he was not in heaven. This was because, while he had been credited with righteousness, that righteousness had not yet been paid.

But you mentioned (rightly) that the promise had been made to Christ. Begs the question; why does God need to promise righteousness to Christ?

[Gal 3:9, 14, 19 NASB20] 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

[Heb 13:20 NASB20] 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,

[Act 2:33 NASB20] 33 "Therefore, since [Jesus] has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear.

[Gen 17:7 NASB20] 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​

Jesus Himself, having the full weight of the sin of the world laid upon Him, and having given up His own righteousness to redeem the credit to Abraham would have had no way to resurrect Himself from the dead... for if he insists on His own innocence, then we get back our own guilt as well. But God made Jesus a promise (the seed to whom the promise had been made) that He would receive the blessing of Abraham (life, righteousness). Jesus redeems His righteousness/life by becoming sin, becoming a curse on the cross (for cursed is all who hang on a tree), and when He does, Abraham's covenant comes into effect. All Christ has to do is believe God's promise... is believe the Gospel... and as a qualified heir, he inherits the righteousness now redeemed in full to Abraham and promised to his descendants. Christ becomes the first raised to life by Abraham's eternal covenant and thereby proves its efficacy.

[2Co 5:21 NASB20] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

[Gal 3:13 NASB20] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB20] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons [and daughters] by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

​

 

[Gup20]

Actually, you really weren't able, and you didn't really take it down. . .but you were thorough. . .and what does free will have to do with it?

I'm glad you asked.

This process of having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had qualifying us as his descendants (the elect) by human adoption means that the relationship between faith and righteousness is not DIRECT (as it was with Abraham), but indirect as it comes through inheritance from the Father of Many Nations. So then it is not our faith which motivates God to grant us righteousness, but it is God's promise to Abraham and to his seed which motivates God to grant righteousness to all the descendants. Therefore, Total Depravity becomes a moot point as our faith isn't qualifying us for righteousness, but for human adoption (and we don't need spiritual regeneration for human adoption). Further, that Abraham had faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and when we have that same, uncircumcised & unregenerate faith we qualify as Abraham's descendants and heirs according to the promise.

[Gal 3:29 NASB20] 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

[Luk 19:9 NASB20] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.​

[Heb 2:16 NASB20] 16 For clearly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham.​

So then whether or not one joins the group "the descendants of Abraham" relies on the "free will" of the believer. I use quotes around the term "free will" because 1) I don't see this term in scripture, and 2) I don't actually think we have completely free will. We can't, for example, choose to reject God and still be saved.

I think when it comes to Salvation, God has given man a distinct, binary choice. Believe the gospel or not... Life or death... Blessing or cursing. So I think it is more accurate to say God has given man the choice whether or not to believe.

What I like to call the Bible's chapter on "free will" & Calvinism is Deuteronomy 30.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB20] 1 "So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call [them] to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you, ... 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants (zera, seed, singular), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you could say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, 'Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 14 "On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 "See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants (seed, singular, zera),​

3 times in this chapter it says that the choice for salvation (life & death) is a choice that God sets before man. It says the choice is not made in heaven, and is not too difficult for you to make on your own. It says you do not need heaven to come down and make you hear (the gospel) so that you can believe it and follow it.

Literally, the only defense to this I've ever been able to get from Calvinists (in years of making this argument) is that this is the Old Testament and only applies to the Jews. To curtail that line of reasoning, let me bring in the Apostle Paul's take on Deuteronomy 30 (neverminded the context is "circumcision of the heart").

[Rom 10:5-13 NASB20] 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart [a person] believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

So Paul says the choice discussed in Deuteronomy 30 is regarding the righteousness based on faith, and that it is the word of faith that they are preaching. Paul says "do not say" that you need the Holy Spirit to indwell you to help you hear the gospel and believe. You can make this choice ... it is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

While I wouldn't call it free will... I would say that God has given man a distinct, binary choice between life and death and commanded him to choose. Just in case he is daft, God gives man a hint; choose life.

I like to give an example of this; lets say I tell my child she can have oatmeal or pancakes for breakfast... but FYI, the pancakes are way better. Am I still completely sovereign over my child's breakfast? Yes, because she cannot freely choose, for example, steak and eggs. But does my child have a choice and a say in it? Certainly she does! Does it diminish my authority over breakfast? Not in the least. Does her having a choice change that I am the one providing breakfast? Not in the slightest because I gave her that choice.

Now here is something interesting. I saw an debate once with Dr James White (Calvinist) who argued about the 'monergistic' vs 'synergistic' nature of salvation. He said there wasn't a single verse in the Bible that indicated a synergistic model of salvation. But that seemed off to me... especially given what we know of the binary choice God gives man regarding the righteousness which comes through faith.

[Deu 30:19 NASB20] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB20] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons [and daughters] by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath He made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. Because of inheritance, the 1:1 exchange between Jesus and Abraham can be multiplied to many. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants (those with the same faith in the gospel as Abraham).

 

[Gup20]

Another interesting bit of reading related to this notion of Total Depravity being moot because of how righteousness is indirect through adoption and Abraham, is the words of Christ Himself.

[Jhn 8:31-44, 56-58 NASB95] 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, [then] you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak the things which I have seen with [My] Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from [your] father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? [It is] because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies. ... 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."​

He says "if you were Abraham's descendants as God sees it, you would do what Abraham did" -- what did he do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ when God preached it to him. Remember faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Jesus says they cannot hear His word (meaning they do not believe), so Jesus disqualifies them as descendants of Abraham, and instead says they are of their father, the devil.

 

[Clare73]

I agree... Abraham was made righteous by his faith in the promise - actually,
more specifically, his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

No, Scripture states he was made righteous by belief in the promise of Genesis 15:5, seed; i.e., Jesus Christ (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).
Abraham was made righteous the same way we are, faith in Jesus Christ (the Promise).

For Gal 3:8 says God preached the gospel to him (all the nations will be blessed in you), and 3:16 says that God made covenant with Abraham and his SEED [(singular)

No, God made covenant with Abraham and promises to his seed.

and that seed was Christ.

Yes. . .

So God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham,

Yes. . .the gospel was contained in the covenant.

and when Abraham believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, he was made righteous.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB20] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed [zera, singular] be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness.​

No. . .Abraham was made righteous when he "believed the LORD" in his promise of seed (Jesus Christ), not the gospel.

The seed God is talking about in Genesis 15:5 is Jesus Christ. So God literally tells Abraham good news about Jesus Christ, and when Abraham believes the gospel, God credits him with righteousness.

No, the gospel preached to Abraham was "All the nations will be blessed through you, that God would justify the Gentiles by faith" in the Promise, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:8).
That is the NT gospel--justification (righteousness) is by faith in Jesus Christ.

Now in Genesis 17 it lays the foundation for ADOPTION as descendants. The covenant is about more than just land rights.

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB20] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall you be named Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.​

So God just gets done saying he would be the "father of a multitude of nations" and then promises an everlasting covenant to Abraham and to his 'seed.' The implication is clear that the 'seed' would be offspring from many nations, not just the nation of Israel.

Keeping in mind, however, that all the promises were made to one Seed only, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16).

God just got done making promises to Abraham about his seed in Genesis 15, and makes a blood covenant with Abraham where He has Abraham split 5 animals in half and passes between them as a pillar of fire (how blood covenants were ratified in those days).
So the promise to Abraham was to Abraham and to his seed (descendants).

Nevertheless, it is NT apostolic teaching that the promises of Abraham were made to one Seed, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16).

To be qualified as an inheritor of this promise, you must be Abraham or a descendant of Abraham. I'm not saying faith in this covenant is what qualifies one as a descendant. Abraham had faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.. when we the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we are in essence part of him, and adopted as descendants.

We are descendants of Abraham and heirs according to the promise in one manner only, by belonging to Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:29).

[Rom 4:11-12, 16-17 NASB20] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

Abraham was the only one made righteous directly for their faith. The rest of us INHERIT it from him.

Actually, Abraham is the "father" of the believing uncircumcised (Gentiles) in the sense that he likewise believed and was justified without being circumcised (as did the Gentiles), before the right of circumcision (the mark of Jews) was instituted.
We do not inherit righteousness from Abraham as our father.
Every tub sits on its own bottom. . .we are made righteousness only by faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ).
There is no promise of righteousness, the promise is of the Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13; John 14:16-17; Acts 1:4, 2:33) whereby righteousness is by faith.

I think Abram's name change is one evidence of his "born again" status... yet... born again in the same sense as he was circumcised in his flesh, and not in the heart by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Born again is only one thing for everyone; i.e., spiritual resurrection from spiritual death into spiritual eternal life by the operation of the Holy Spirit, and adoption as a son of God and joint heir with Christ.
Circumcision of the heart is the operation of the Holy Spirit in the born again.

God was establishing the pattern, though all of it was not yet available (which is why it was promised to come) When Abraham died, he still went to hell to await the death of Christ where Christ's righteousness was fed into the covenant.

Nowhere is it presented in Scripture that Christ's righteousness was fed into the covenant.
Nor is righteousness by being in the covenant. There were those in the OT who were in the covenant by birth who were not righteous by faith. . .Saul comes to mind.
Righteousness is only by trusting belief in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5).
There is no promise of the righteousness of Abraham by covenant.

[Luk 16:23 NASB20] 23 "And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms.​

Now he was in the paradise part of hell which had no torment, but nonetheless, he was not in heaven. This was because, while he had been credited with righteousness, that righteousness had not yet been paid.

But you mentioned (rightly) that the promise had been made to Christ. Begs the question; why does God need to promise righteousness to Christ?

Agreed. . .which is why God does not. There was/is no promise of righteousness in the covenant.
There is the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17).
Righteousness is only by the Holy Spirit through faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5), never by promise of a covenant.

[Gal 3:9, 14, 19 NASB20] 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

To whom the promise of Seed was made is Abraham (Genesis 15:5).

[Heb 13:20 NASB20] 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,​

The New Covenant is the eternal (everlasting) covenant (Jeremiah 32:40).

[Act 2:33 NASB20] 33 "Therefore, since [Jesus] has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear.

The Holy Spirit promised to and by Jesus (John 7:38-39, John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26, Acts 1:4, 2:34).

[Gen 17:7 NASB20] 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

That is the everlasting New Covenant (Jeremiah 32:40; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:28), which redeemed us by the blood of the Lamb for all eternity.​

Jesus Himself, having the full weight of the sin of the world laid upon Him, and having given up His own righteousness,

Our sin was imputed to, laid on Jesus, he became our sin bearer, as did the animal sacrifices.
The Greek word used there in 2 Corinthians 5:21 for "sin" is harmatia, which also means "sin offering," as in Romans 8:3; 1 Corinthians 15:3.
Jesus did not become sin himself, he became our sin offering bearing our sins, as did the OT animals (who could not be made sinful).
He did not personally become unrighteous, as the animal sacrifices did not. Both the animals and Jesus were substitutes paying the penalty for sinners.

to redeem the credit to Abraham

Jesus died to pay the penalty owed to God's justice for the sin of all those who believe in Jesus' atoning work (Romans 3:25) for the remission of their sin.
Abraham and all the OT saints received an advance application of that payment to their own sin (Romans 3:25-26).
The atonement is nowhere specifically stated as just for Abraham directly, it is for all believers directly.
Abraham is not our mediator, Christ is our mediator.

would have had no way to resurrect Himself from the dead... for if he insists on His own innocence, then we get back our own guilt as well.

Where is this notion of Jesus' decline to claim innocence found in Scripture?
Where does this narrative come from?
Jesus who is God does not become sin.

But God made Jesus a promise (the seed to whom the promise had been made)
that He would receive the blessing of Abraham (life, righteousness).

The blessing of Abraham included seed as numerous as the stars, fulfilled in the body of Christ.

Jesus redeems His righteousness/life by becoming sin,

Again, the Greek word used there in 2 Corinthians 5:21 for "sin" is harmatia, which also means "sin offering," as in 1 Corinthians 15:3.
Jesus did not become sin himself, he became our sin offering bearing our sins, as did the OT animals (who could not be made sinful).

becoming a curse on the cross (for cursed is all who hang on a tree), and when He does, Abraham's covenant comes into effect. All Christ has to do is believe God's promise... is believe the Gospel... and as a qualified heir, he inherits the righteousness now redeemed in full to Abraham

Ye gads, man! If Jesus were himself unrighteous, he could not qualify as a perfect sin offering for us.
We're all still dead in our trespasses and sins!

and promised to his descendants. Christ becomes the first raised to life by Abraham's eternal covenant and thereby proves its efficacy.

Christ's resurrection was not about proving the efficacy of an eternal covenant to Abraham.
It was about proving his claim to be the Messiah, the Son of God, who gives eternal life.

[2Co 5:21 NASB20] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

And again, the Greek word used there for "sin" is harmatia, which also means "sin offering," as in
Romans 8:3, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
Jesus did not become sin himself, he became our sin offering bearing our sins, as did the OT animals (who could not be made sinful).

[Gal 3:13 NASB20] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--​

Dying on the wooden cross showed that he was the curse for us.

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB20] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons [and daughters] by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Christ is the begotten son of God, we are his adopted brothers who share the inheritance of the begotten son.

Lot of confusion of the gospel here regarding NT:
nature of atonement,
imputed righteousness only by faith in Jesus Christ,
justification only by faith in Jesus Christ,
regeneration,
promise of the covenant,
sin-bearing, etc.​

 

[Gup20]

No. . .Abraham was made righteous when he "believed the LORD" in his promise of seed (Jesus Christ), not the gospel.
No, the gospel preached to Abraham was "All the nations will be blessed through you, that God would justify the Gentiles by faith" in the Promise, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:8).
That is the NT gospel--justification (righteousness) is by faith in Jesus Christ.

The passage Paul specifically quotes in Galtians 3:8 as being "the gospel" is Gen 12:

[Gen 12:3 NASB20] 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
​

This chapter doesn't specifically state it was part of the covenant, but a case could be made that it was part of the covenant story.

However, God specifically tells Abraham something about Jesus in Genesis 15, and when Abraham believes what God tells him (specifically about Jesus), God credits him with righteousness. This is the same as believing the good news of the gospel. From Gen 15:18, we know Gen 15 is definitely part of the covenant.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB20] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness.​

I can be argued that this "good news" about Jesus Christ (since as Galatians 3:16 says, the seed is Christ) is another summery of the gospel, as God is promising life from death (that Abraham would have many descendants from his wife Sarah's barren womb).

Keeping in mind, however, that all the promises were made to one Seed only, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16).

Nevertheless, it is NT apostolic teaching that the promises of Abraham were made to one Seed, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16).

I think a strong argument can be made that God honored multiple meanings and interpretations ... certainly a literal one and a spiritual or allegorical one.

[Gen 17:7 NASB20] 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.​

While the promise is being made about (and to) Christ, it includes all of the descendants in their generations, not only Christ. Otherwise the name "Father of Many Nations" wouldn't make sense. I do agree with you... the promise is being made to Christ, and to those who are "in Christ."

Actually, Abraham is the "father" of the believing uncircumcised (Gentiles), because he likewise believed and was justified without being circumcised (as were the Gentiles), before the right of circumcision (the mark of Jews) was instituted.
We do not inherit righteousness from Abraham.

Don't forget Paul's discussion on this from Romans 4:

[Rom 4:11-12, 16-17 NASB20] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.
​

Now that the Holy Spirit is come, circumcision of the heart takes the place of circumcision of the flesh in the covenant.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

Every tub sits on its own bottom. . .we are made righteousness only by faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ).
There is no promise of righteousness, the promise is of the Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13; John 14:16-17; Acts 1:4, 2:33) whereby righteousness is by faith.

Rom 4:11 ... a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

[Gal 3:29 NASB20] 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Luk 19:9 NASB20] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

[Heb 2:16 NASB20] 16 For clearly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham.​

​

Born again is only one thing for everyone; i.e., spiritual resurrection from spiritual death into spiritual eternal life by the operation of the Holy Spirit, and adoption as a son of God and joint heir with Christ.
Circumcision of the heart is the operation of the Holy Spirit in the born again.

Perhaps I didn't my perspective well here. What I meant to convey is that there are some "old testament placeholders" as it were which represent a prophetic pattern of the future promise. For example, circucmsion of the flesh represents circumcision of the heart. It was in the flesh until the Holy Spirit was given and it could become of the heart. Similarly, you see some name changes in Abram and Jacob (to Abraham and Israel) to allegorically represent the future state of being born again or being a new creation.

There is no promise of the righteousness of Abraham by covenant.

[Heb 11:12-13, 39-40 NASB95] 12 Therefore there was born even of one man (Abraham), and him as good as dead at that, [as many descendants] AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. ... 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

[Col 1:18 NASB95] 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.​

[2Co 5:21 NASB95] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

[Gal 3:13 NASB95] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"​

Christ became sin (was imputed with sin) and we became righteous (were imputed with righteousness). By what mechanism is this transfer facilitated? We know that The Law is definitely capable of cursing someone... but it is not capable of blessing or imparting life to someone.

[Gal 3:14, 21 NASB95] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham (blessing is life/righteousness Deu 30:19) might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Having given this some thought, I concluded that Christ gives up his life - his righteousness - by being cursed (the opposite of blessed) by The Law ... for the law says anyone hung on a tree is cursed (Deu 21:23) . But then that blessing (life/righteousness) has to go somewhere... it doesn't just disappear into nothingness. 2Co 5:21 and Gal 3:13 seem to indicate some kind of exchange (redemption) took place. Gal 3:14, Rom 4:11 say that it is credited to those who believe through the Abrahamic covenant. So Christ was cursed through the law and blessed through Abraham's covenant.

[Heb 9:15 NASB95] 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were [committed] under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.​

Begs the question; what exactly is inherited which can overcome transgressions committed under the first covenant?

Jesus did not become sin himself, he became our sin offering bearing our sins, as did the OT animals (who could not be made sinful).
He did not personally become unrighteous, as the animal sacrifices did not. Both the animals and Jesus were substitutes paying the penalty for sinners.

[2Co 5:21 NASB95] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

I looked at 15 different translations of the Bible, and all of them say God made Him "to be sin." It goes on to compare that state with our state of becoming righteous. So to say Jesus didn't actually become unrighteous is to say we also don't actually become righteous. At some literal point God had to look at Jesus and see sin, and at some literal point God had to look at us and see righteousness.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me." The sin laid upon Him caused God to turn away and separate Himself from Christ. That's about as real and literal as it gets for those in sin. Psalms 22 and 69 are both fantastic Psalms which give us insight into the thoughts and feelings of Christ on the cross (for one passage talks about giving Him vinegar to drink, and another talks about them dividing his clothes... so we know these are both prophetic about Christ). They paint a picture of a smitten man waiting on God for salvation and rescue. He doesn't rescue himself. God resurrects him. So the question is, how?

[Heb 13:20 NASB95] 20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord,​

We know that Noah's covenant is eternal, we know that David's covenant is eternal, and we know that Abraham's covenant is eternal. We also know that The Law is not eternal, for the writer of Hebrews says:

[Heb 8:8-9, 12-13 NASB95] 8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. ... 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13 When He said, "A new [covenant,]" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

So the only covenant left which seems capable in any way, shape or form of bringing up Jesus from the dead is Abraham's covenant of righteousness through faith. The only covenant capable of imparting life is Abraham's covenant... the Law is not capable of imparting life to the dead... only capable of imparting death to the living for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

[Luk 10:25 NASB95] 25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"​

[Mat 25:34 NASB95] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.​

[Heb 1:14 NASB95] 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?​

It's clear from scripture that eternal life or salvation is an inheritance. We are "fellows heirs" with Christ, according to Romans 8:16. I'm just trying to understand the mechanics of this inheritance. It seems logical to start with the Father of Many Nations with whom an eternal covenant was made.

[Luk 19:9 NASB20] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.​

[Heb 2:16 NASB20] 16 For clearly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham.​

Jesus died to pay the penalty owed to God's justice for the sin of all those who believe in Jesus' atoning work (Romans 3:25) for the remission of their sin.
Abraham and all the OT saints received an advance application of that payment to their own sin (Romans 3:25-26).
The atonement is not specifically for Abraham directly, it is for all believers directly.
Abraham is not our mediator, Christ is our mediator.

Agreed.

The blessing of Abraham included seed as numerous as the stars, fulfilled in the body of Christ.

Agreed.

Jesus did not become sin himself, he became our sin offering bearing our sins, as did the OT animals (who could not be made sinful).

[Lev 16:21-22 NASB95] 21 "Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send [it] away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who [stands] in readiness. 22 "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.​

The laying on of hands implies the sin is transferred to the animal, and the animal is sent away - bearing all the iniquity.

Ye gads, man! If Jesus were himself unrighteous, he could not qualify as a perfect sin offering for us.
We're all still dead in our trespasses and sins!

The sacrifice has to be spotless and blameless BEFORE the sacrifice ... but once it has the sin of the world laid upon it, it bears their iniquity.

Dying on the wooden cross showed that he was the curse for us.
Christ is the begotten son of God, we are his adopted brothers who share the inheritance of the begotten son.​

[Deu 21:23 NASB95] 23 his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.​

Of course at Jesus' death, the sky turned dark for 3 hours, meaning his body did hang "all night" on the tree causing the land of Israel to be cursed as well which was left desolate for 2000 years and it wasn't until 1947 when Israel was reconstituted as a nation when they returned to their ancestral land of promise. But clearly, Jesus was accursed of God by the Law of Moses. It is interesting that it was 2000 years between Adam and Abraham, and then 2000 years between Abraham and Christ, and then 2000 years between Christ's death and the destruction of Israel to the return of Israel in present day.

 

[Clare73]

I'm glad you asked.

This process of having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had qualifying us as his descendants (the elect) by human adoption means that the relationship between faith and righteousness is not DIRECT (as it was with Abraham), but indirect as it comes through inheritance from the Father of Many Nations.
So then it is not our faith which motivates God to grant us righteousness,

And you've gone off the NT rails.

but it is God's promise to Abraham and to his seed which motivates God to grant righteousness to all the descendants.

Is this the teaching of a denomination?
.

 

[Gup20]

And you've gone off the NT rails.

Ive posted more scripture than 99% of people you have discussion with. Just because salvation is indirect (through adoption) doesn’t mean faith doesn’t result in righteousness and salvation. It simply means God doesn’t need to cause us to believe, it is a choice He requires us to make for ourselves.

Hebrews 6:13-19 (NASB20) 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear an oath by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “INDEED I WILL GREATLY BLESS YOU AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU.” 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For people swear an oath by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath serving as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil,​

You shouldn’t balk when I say God is motivated by His oath to Abraham.

Is this the teaching of a denomination?
.

No, it’s what I plainly read from scripture. This started in my own study & God revealed to me Gal 3:8, 16 and Gen 15:5-6 meant that God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and believing the gospel is why He made him righteous. The rest flowed from that root. So I studied to understand the whole of Galatians 3, then Genesis 15-17, then Romans 4 since it paralleled Gal 3. It wasn’t until later that I realized these mechanics of salvation now properly understood resolve the dispute between Calvin & Arminius. It also unifies the Old and New Testament like never before.

[Gal 3:14-18 NASB95] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

This should be the END of all works-based doctrines. When you realize that we are being made righteous through the Abrahamic covenant of faith rather than the Mosaic covenant, it should break off all chains. Salvation is truly apart from The Law. It also shows how the Torah testifies (repeatedly) about righteousness which comes through faith. This means it had to be established BEFORE the law was given (so it would be apart from the law), and put into effect AFTER the law was given (so it could overcome the curse of law). It should also bring Jews and Christians into a much greater unity of faith (for all Jews hold desperately to Abrahams covenant for the land promises). Abraham is not only the father of all Jews, also the father of all who believe.

 

[Clare73]

Ive posted more scripture than 99% of people you have discussion with. Just because salvation is indirect (through adoption) doesn’t mean faith doesn’t result in righteousness and salvation. It simply means God doesn’t need to cause us to believe, it is a choice He requires us to make for ourselves.

Hebrews 6:13-19 (NASB20) 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear an oath by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “INDEED I WILL GREATLY BLESS YOU AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU.” 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For people swear an oath by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath serving as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil,​

You shouldn’t balk when I say God is motivated by His oath to Abraham.

No, it’s what I plainly read from scripture.
This started in my own study & God revealed to me

Okay, omitting the "motivated" part,

you are comfortable with denying NT authoritative apostolic teaching that righteousness comes by God "through faith in Jesus Christ" (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7)
in your stating: it is not our faith which motivates God to grant us righteousness,
it is God's promise to Abraham and to his seed which motivates God to grant righteousness?

Gal 3:8, 16 and Gen 15:5-6 meant that God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and believing the gospel is why He made him righteous. The rest flowed from that root. So I studied to understand the whole of Galatians 3, then Genesis 15-17, then Romans 4 since it paralleled Gal 3. It wasn’t until later that I realized these mechanics of salvation now properly understood resolve the dispute between Calvin & Arminius. It also unifies the Old and New Testament like never before.

[Gal 3:14-18 NASB95] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

This should be the END of all works-based doctrines. When you realize that we are being made righteous through the Abrahamic covenant of faith rather than the Mosaic covenant, it should break off all chains. Salvation is truly apart from The Law. It also shows how the Torah testifies (repeatedly) about righteousness which comes through faith. This means it had to be established BEFORE the law was given (so it would be apart from the law), and put into effect AFTER the law was given (so it could overcome the curse of law). It should also bring Jews and Christians into a much greater unity of faith (for all Jews hold desperately to Abrahams covenant for the land promises). Abraham is not only the father of all Jews, also the father of all who believe.

 

[Gup20]

Okay, omitting the "motivated" part,

you are comfortable with denying NT authoritative apostolic teaching that righteousness comes by God "through faith in Jesus Christ" (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7)
in your stating: it is not our faith which motivates God to grant us righteousness,
it is God's promise to Abraham and to his seed which motivates God to grant righteousness?

I do not deny that righteousness comes through faith. I'm saying that righteousness is an INDIRECT result of faith, rather than a DIRECT result of faith. Faith qualifies us the descendants of Abraham. Descendants of Abraham inherit the promises of God including the promise of the Spirit. The Spirit is life and peace. Just as God found Abraham faithful and made a promise to him that he and his descendants would see life from death (in Sarah's womb), so we too when we are qualified as his heirs receive from God life from death.

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

[Eze 37:14 NASB95] 14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

[Rom 8:2, 11 NASB95] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. ... 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

This list of peoples in NEH 9:7 is from Genesis 15, not Genesis 17 - it was included with the faith promise and is connected to the Father of Many Nations promise in Genesis 17 - the eternal covenant - when God references this part of the promise in verse 8. It shows Genesis 15-17 is all one promise/covenant.

Faith qualifies us for adoption. Being a descendant qualifies us for righteousness. So righteousness comes through faith.

[Rom 4:11 NASB95] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

[Gal 3:7, 9 NASB95] 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. ... 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Deu 30:19 NASB95] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Calvin and Arminius both believed that righteousness was a direct result of faith. Calvin couldn't see how an unregenerate man's faith could motivate God to bless him. Arminius couldn't see that God wasn't being motivated by man's will, but rather by His own promise. Both Calvin and Arminius were wrong because of the exact same incorrect assumption - that faith and righteousness had a direct relationship instead of an indirect relationship.

Jesus once said "which is easier to say - be healed or your sins are forgiven." In other words, the affect is the same. To say "be healed" means that death (the wage of sin) is removed from the body. Just because God doesn't delineate all the steps doesn't mean the affect isn't the same. Similarly, to say faith leads to righteousness, whether it is indirectly or directly, the affect is the same. And what is easier to say? The simplest form of the gospel is "believe in Christ and you will have eternal life." Knowing how the process works in getting from faith to righteousness isn't required... only faith is required (as is obvious in Abraham).

But knowledge of how it works is how we avoid major errors in doctrine (such as Calvinism). To avoid being swayed by these false doctrines, it is important to know the why and how of salvation. But this is not necessary for salvation or righteousness as Abraham didn't even know the name of Jesus or Messiah, but his unregenerate faith in what Gold said about the messiah was enough for God to grant him righteousness.

Colossians 1:26
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been revealed to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.​

I say false doctrine because Calvinism has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, circumcision of the heart, and regeneration coming before faith. The Bible is explicit that regeneration and indwelling come AFTER faith, not before. We do not need the Holy Spirit to help us hear the gospel and believe. Our faith leads to righteousness (justification) and God comes and dwells and has communion with the righteous granting His Holy Spirit and regeneration as a first installment or down payment of our inheritance.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (first installment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

I noticed you shied away from the Deuteronomy 30 analysis in post #94. I pray God is using it to reveal truth to you. May the Spirit of Truth open the eyes of your heart.

 

[Clare73]

I do not deny that righteousness comes through faith. I'm saying that
righteousness is an INDIRECT result of faith, rather than a DIRECT result of faith.
Faith qualifies us the descendants of Abraham.

And yet, this righteousness is stated in the NT to be "through faith in Christ," not through Abraham by faith in Christ (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7).

We inherit the blessings to Abraham and his descendants, not by being in the Abrahamic covenant, but by being in Christ, to whom all the promises were exclusively made (Galatians 3:16).
No descendant of Abraham receives the promises who is not in Christ.
God took Abraham out of the loop completely when he made all the promises to Christ only.

So that it's not about righteousness through descendancy from Abraham by faith in Christ,
it's about righteousness through being in Christ.
It's not about faith qualifying us to be descendants of Abraham, wherein is our righteousness,
it's about faith in Christ as our righteousness.
It is NT doctrine that Abraham has nothing to do with it. . .he is not, and never was, in the loop.

Descendants of Abraham inherit the promises of God including the promise of the Spirit. The Spirit is life and peace. Just as God found Abraham faithful and made a promise to him that he and his descendants would see life from death (in Sarah's womb), so we too when we are qualified as his heirs receive from God life from death.

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

[Eze 37:14 NASB95] 14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

[Rom 8:2, 11 NASB95] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. ... 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

This list of peoples in NEH 9:7 is from Genesis 15, not Genesis 17 - it was included with the faith promise and is connected to the Father of Many Nations promise in Genesis 17 - the eternal covenant - when God references this part of the promise in verse 8. It shows Genesis 15-17 is all one promise/covenant.

Faith qualifies us for adoption. Being a descendant qualifies us for righteousness. So righteousness comes through faith.

[Rom 4:11 NASB95] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

[Gal 3:7, 9 NASB95] 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. ... 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Deu 30:19 NASB95] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Calvin and Arminius both believed that righteousness was a direct result of faith. Calvin couldn't see how an unregenerate man's faith could motivate God to bless him. Arminius couldn't see that God wasn't being motivated by man's will, but rather by His own promise. Both Calvin and Arminius were wrong because of the exact same incorrect assumption - that faith and righteousness had a direct relationship instead of an indirect relationship.

Jesus once said "which is easier to say - be healed or your sins are forgiven." In other words, the affect is the same. To say "be healed" means that death (the wage of sin) is removed from the body. Just because God doesn't delineate all the steps doesn't mean the affect isn't the same. Similarly, to say faith leads to righteousness, whether it is indirectly or directly, the affect is the same. And what is easier to say? The simplest form of the gospel is "believe in Christ and you will have eternal life." Knowing how the process works in getting from faith to righteousness isn't required... only faith is required (as is obvious in Abraham).

But knowledge of how it works is how we avoid major errors in doctrine (such as Calvinism). To avoid being swayed by these false doctrines, it is important to know the why and how of salvation. But this is not necessary for salvation or righteousness as Abraham didn't even know the name of Jesus or Messiah, but his unregenerate faith in what Gold said about the messiah was enough for God to grant him righteousness.

Colossians 1:26
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been revealed to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.​

I say false doctrine because Calvinism has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, circumcision of the heart, and regeneration coming before faith. The Bible is explicit that regeneration and indwelling come AFTER faith, not before. We do not need the Holy Spirit to help us hear the gospel and believe. Our faith leads to righteousness (justification) and God comes and dwells and has communion with the righteous granting His Holy Spirit and regeneration as a first installment or down payment of our inheritance.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (first installment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

I noticed you shied away from the Deuteronomy 30 analysis in post #94. I pray God is using it to reveal truth to you. May the Spirit of Truth open the eyes of your heart.

 

[Clare73]

What I like to call the Bible's chapter on "free will" & Calvinism is Deuteronomy 30.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB20] 1 "So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call [them] to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you, ... 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants (zera, seed, singular), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you could say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, 'Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 14 "On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 "See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, ...​

19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants (seed, singular, zera),

3 times in this chapter it says that the choice for salvation (life & death) is a choice that God sets before man.

Deuteronomy 30:1, 6 are God's provision for repentance in the covenant (29:1).
Deuteronomy 30:11-15 refers back to the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy 28, which are a matter of natural life and death (v.15), not salvation.

Literally, the only defense to this I've ever been able to get from Calvinists (in years of making this argument) is that this is the Old Testament and only applies to the Jews.

It is OT, it does apply to the Jews, and it is about choice of natural life and death, according to the blessings and curses of the covenant back in Deuteronomy 28, not about salvation and eternal life.