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Free Will challenge

Gup20

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And yet, this righteousness is stated in the NT to be "through faith in Christ," not through Abraham by faith in Christ (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7).

[Gal 3:14 NASB20] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

To be clear, we are talking about the righteousness of Christ being given to Abraham so that all of those with faith (including Christ himself) can inherit that righteousness and be freed from the curse. How else is the righteousness of one man multiplied to many? The blessing of Abraham is the promise of the spirit through faith.

[Act 2:33 NASB20] 33 "Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear.

[Heb 13:20 NASB20] 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,

[Luk 19:9 NASB20] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.​

We know, then, Christ was raised from death to life through the eternal covenant given to Abraham... the same as we who believe will also. If you don't believe this was through Abraham's covenant, then what eternal covenant is Heb 13:20 talking about?

We inherit the blessings to Abraham and his descendants, not by being in the Abrahamic covenant, but by being in Christ, to whom all the promises were exclusively made (Galatians 3:16).
And if you are in Christ, then are you Abraham's descendants and heirs according to the promises given to Abraham and his descendants.

[Gal 3:7, 26, 29 NASB20] 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. ... 26 For you are all sons [and daughters] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

I agree with you... we are not "in Abraham's covenant" ... we are blessed BECAUSE OF Abraham's covenant. We are made righteous BECAUSE OF Abraham's covenant. According to verse 29 here of Galatians 3 it flows from Christ to Abraham and we inherit it from our father Abraham. Otherwise, why call him the father of all who believe or the father of many nations?

No descendant of Abraham receives the promises who is not in Christ.
Agreed.
God took Abraham out of the loop completely when he made all the promises to Christ only.
As I showed you above, Christ overcame the curse because of the Abrahamic covenant.

So that it's not about righteousness through descendancy from Abraham by faith in Christ,
it's about righteousness through being in Christ.
It's not about faith qualifying us to be descendants of Abraham, wherein is our righteousness,
it's about faith in Christ as our righteousness.
Abraham has nothing to do with it.
It is about faith qualifying us to be descendants of Abraham, wherein is Christ's righteousness. Christ's righteousness went to Abraham (Gen 15:5-6, Gal 3:14) and through Abraham we all inherit the righteousness of Christ. It is through this inheritance that the righteousness (life) of ONE (Christ) is multiplied to MANY, just as the death of ONE (Adam) was inherited by all his descendants.

Christ is the righteous savior, not the father of all who believe. We are fellow heirs with Christ.
As we see from Galatians 3:29, we are Abraham's descendants and therefore heirs according to the promise. Being adopted as descendants referred to within Abraham's covenant (those who are in Christ) means we become the named beneficiaries of the Abrahamic covenant.
 
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Clare73

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[Gal 3:14 NASB20] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​
To be clear, we are talking about the righteousness of Christ being given to Abraham so that
all of those with faith (including Christ himself) can inherit that righteousness and be freed from the curse.
Christ did not inherit his righteousness (acquittal of guilt), he was born with it.
He had no guilt of which to be acquitted.
How else is the righteousness of one man multiplied to many?
It's not multiplied to many, it is imputed/credited to many (Romans 4:1-11).
The blessing of Abraham is the promise of the spirit through faith.
[Act 2:33 NASB20] 33 "Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear.
[Heb 13:20 NASB20] 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,​
The eternal covenant being the everlasting New Covenant (Jeremiah 32:40), not the covenant with Abraham.
[Luk 19:9 NASB20] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
Yes, salvation was for the Jews, until they rejected and killed him.​
We know, then, Christ was raised from death to life through the eternal covenant given to Abraham... the same as we who believe will also. If you don't believe this was through Abraham's covenant, then what eternal covenant is Heb 13:20 talking about?
The everlasting new covenant (Jeremiah 32:40), promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 (Hebrews 8:8-12).
And if you are in Christ, then are you Abraham's descendants and heirs according to the promises given to Abraham and his descendants.
In the text that's "promise," singular--heir of the world (Romans 4:13), everlasting possession (Genesis 17:8, 48:4).

Remembering that all the promises to Abraham's descendants are shut up in Christ (Galatians 3:16).
[Gal 3:7, 26, 29 NASB20] 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. ... 26 For you are all sons [and daughters] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​
I agree with you... we are not "in Abraham's covenant" ... we are blessed BECAUSE OF Abraham's covenant. We are made righteous BECAUSE OF Abraham's covenant.
In my Bible, I am made righteous through faith in Christ, not through Abraham.
It's righteousness through faith in Christ, by faith in Christ.
It is not through Abraham by Christ.
According to verse 29 here of Galatians 3 it flows from Christ to Abraham
In my Bible (Galatians 3:29) the promise flows from Abraham to Christ, who is Abraham's seed,
making me, by being in Christ, Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise, the promise being an everlasting possession (Genesis 17:8, 48:4), heir of the world (Romans 4:3), adoption, divine glory (Romans 9:4), the gospel (Romans 1:2). . .
and we inherit it from our father Abraham. Otherwise, why call him the father of all who believe or the father of many nations?
That (Romans 4:11) refers to the Gentiles, previously explained.
As I showed you above, Christ overcame the curse because of the Abrahamic covenant.

It is about faith qualifying us to be descendants of Abraham, wherein is Christ's righteousness. Christ's righteousness went to Abraham (Gen 15:5-6, Gal 3:14) and through Abraham we all inherit the righteousness of Christ. It is through this inheritance that the righteousness (life) of ONE (Christ) is multiplied to MANY, just as the death of ONE (Adam) was inherited by all his descendants.
Abraham was credited with righteousness from God (Romans 1:17) because he believed in God who brought life from the dead (Romans 4:19), and so we will be justified (made righteous) with righteousness from God (Romans 3:21-22) by believing in God who raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 4:20-24).
Righteousness is directly from God by faith, it is not "through" Abraham.
Christ is the righteous savior, not the father of all who believe. We are fellow heirs with Christ.
As we see from Galatians 3:29, we are Abraham's descendants and therefore heirs according to the promise.
We are Abraham's descendants in Christ.
Being adopted as descendants
We are in Christ, and Christ is not adopted by Abraham.
referred to within Abraham's covenant (those who are in Christ) means we become the named beneficiaries of the Abrahamic covenant.
That is, we receive the promise of the Abrahamic covenant--everlasting possession (eternal life) and heir of the world (Romans 4:13), new heavens and new earth.
 
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Gup20

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Christ did not inherit his righteousness (acquittal of guilt), he was born with it.
He had no guilt of which to be acquitted.
No guilt of His own... but all of our guilt rested upon him.

[Isa 53:6 NASB95] 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.​

You must not hold to "once saved always saved." It would be accurate to say that our sin was imputed to Christ. If Jesus can simply put off our imputed guilt, then we can also lose His imputed righteousness. If Jesus can say "yeah, I was imputed their guilt, but really I'm righteous" then it can be said of us "yeah, I was imputed Christ's righteousness, but really I'm guilty of sin... so no eternal life for me."

By what mechanism can Jesus overcome our imputed guilt without taking back from us His imputed righteousness? Clearly Christ was cursed by The Law, so the Law cannot make Him righteous again once it has cursed Him. That is the weakness of The Law. He must overcome our imputed guilt apart from The Law. By what means or mechanism is our imputed guilt overcome?

Remembering that all the promises to Abraham's descendants are shut up in Christ (Galatians 3:16).
In my Bible, I am made righteous through faith in Christ, not through Abraham.
It's righteousness through faith in Christ, by faith in Christ.
It is not through Abraham by Christ.
In Christ, the blessing of Abraham goes to the descendants. This means it flows from Christ to Abraham to be distributed to the descendants.

In my Bible (Galatians 3:29) the promise flows from Abraham to Christ, who is Abraham's seed,
making me, by being in Christ, Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise, the promise being an everlasting possession (Genesis 17:8, 48:4), heir of the world (Romans 4:3), adoption, divine glory (Romans 9:4), the gospel (Romans 1:2). . .
Yes, Jesus was the principle descendant, so Christ gave up his righteousness and became sin, His righteousness flowing to Abraham. Because of God's promise to Abraham, that righteousness flows to Abraham's seed - Jesus being the primary inheritor. But now, not only can it flow from Abraham to Christ, but it can flow from Abraham to those who are in Christ through the same oath of inheritance. Ultimately it is Christ's righteousness, but it had to flow through a 3rd party and come through a promise so that it could flow forward and not backward... otherwise our sin would also flow backward. So righteousness had to flow back to Christ not because He deserved it (which He did), but out of the grace of a promised inheritance. Otherwise, God would have no need to make the Promise to Christ... Christ having deserved His own righteousness would just take it up again as something He was owed ... as something he had a right to... no promise necessary... it was His to take.

The only reason to make a promise to Christ is if Christ was giving it up with the possibility of not getting it back again. Having been cursed by the Law, and having the iniquity of all of us laid upon Him, I could see how that was a possibility. But throughout the OT God gave Him assurances. For example, through David, God promised not to leave His soul in Hades.

[Act 2:31-36 NASB95] 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY (cross ref: Psa 16:10). 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified."​

Abraham was credited with righteousness from God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) because he believed in God who brought life from the dead, and so we will be justified (made righteous) with righteousness from God by believing in God who raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 4:20-24).
Righteousness is directly from God by faith, it is not "through" Abraham.

But whose righteousness was given to Abraham? God doesn't just create it and hand it out like cotton candy. If that were the case, there would have been no need for Jesus to die and give up His life (righteousness), and there would have been no need for Jesus to live a sinless life.

We are Abraham's descendants in Christ.
Agreed.
We are in Christ, and Christ is not adopted by Abraham.
No need when He was a direct descendant... the genealogies make that clear. Yet Jesus did believe everything God promised Him... so he was both a physical and spiritual descendant - the unified man through whom both Jews and Gentiles can be saved.
That is, we receive the promise of the Abrahamic covenant--everlasting possession (eternal life) and heir of the world (Romans 4:13), new heavens and new earth.
I agree.
 
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Clare73

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No guilt of His own... but all of our guilt rested upon him.
[Isa 53:6 NASB95] 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.​
You must not hold to "once saved always saved." It would be accurate to say that our sin was imputed to Christ.
If Jesus can simply put off our imputed guilt, then we can also lose His imputed righteousness.
Who made that rule?

You're comparing apples to oranges, comparing the righteous divine to the sinful human.

Nope. . .Jesus didn't "put off" guilt imputed to him, he paid the penalty for it and, therefore, the guilt was justly required to be removed from him, and also from all those who apply his payment, by faith in that atonement for them.
No one gets to "put off" guilt, they get only to pay for it.

And having no guilt of his own, he was not made personally righteous through Abraham, for he was never personally unrighteous, as we were. He had to be righteous to qualify as the perfect sacrifice.
Jesus is the divine son of God, therefore, he is neither unrighteous nor is he under Abraham, receiving Abraham's righteousness for himself.
If Jesus can say "yeah, I was imputed their guilt, but really I'm righteous" then it can be said of us "yeah, I was imputed Christ's righteousness, but really I'm guilty of sin... so no eternal life for me."
Who made that rule?

You have neither the power to impute righteousness, nor the power to remove it.
That is God's sovereign domain, and he has revealed in the NT how he administers it through faith.
By what mechanism can Jesus overcome our imputed guilt
The same way the guy down at the prison "overcomes" his earned/just guilt--by paying the penalty (prison time), so Jesus paid the penalty of death, which in justice removes the guilt.

That is the Greek meaning of (the righteousness of) justification (dikaiosis)--a declaration, a sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge, who is God (because the fine/penalty has been paid, nothing is owed to justice anymore). It is not a transformation of character, it is simply the removal of guilt--forensical.
without taking back from us His imputed righteousness? Clearly Christ was cursed by The Law, so the Law cannot make Him righteous again once it has cursed Him.
Correct, the Law makes no one righteous, it was not given to make righteous, it was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). "All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10).
Christ himself was never made unrighteous, he was made a sin offering (Romans 8:3, as previously explained), our sin was laid on him, as sin was laid on the animal sacrifice (the animal did not become a sinner, animals cannot sin, it became a sin bearer). If he were not completely righteous, he could not qualify to be our perfect sacrifice.
That is the weakness of The Law. He must overcome our imputed guilt apart from The Law. By what means or mechanism is our imputed guilt overcome?
Who made that rule?

He doesn't "overcome" anything, he pays the penalty for it, just as the guy down at the prison doesn't "overcome" his guilt, he pays the penalty for it (incarceration) and it is removed by the Judge (justifi-
cation)--he is no longer "guilty." It is all forensical, it is not about character transformation, personal change or personal goodness. It is simply about paying a fine owed to avoid its penalty (eternal death).
The sinner, then being free of guilt, God imputes Christ's righteousness to him (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-21, Romans 4:1-11).
In Christ, the blessing of Abraham goes to the descendants. This means it flows from Christ to Abraham to be distributed to the descendants.
The blessing of Abraham is Christ (Seed, Genesis 15:5), which is the Seed (Galatians 3:16).
Yes, Jesus was the principle descendant, so
Christ gave up his righteousness and became sin,
As previously explained. . .Christ did not give up his personal righteousness, he became a sin bearer.
(1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:28).
His righteousness flowing to Abraham.
The righteousness that Christ "gave up" then "flowed to Abraham"?
You've really gone off the NT rails here.

The righteousness that Christ is and has, was never "given up," it was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) who shared in it through faith.
Because of God's promise to Abraham, that righteousness flows to Abraham's seed - Jesus being the primary inheritor.
Jesus does not inherit righteousness from sinful man (Romans 5:18).
We're talking about the divine Son of God here! God partakes in no sin, he bears the sin of others.
Jesus is divine righteousness himself.
But now, not only can it flow from Abraham to Christ, but it can flow from Abraham to those who are in Christ through the same oath of inheritance. Ultimately it is Christ's righteousness, but it had to flow through a 3rd party and come through a promise so that it could flow forward and not backward... otherwise our sin would also flow backward.
Actually, this is simply a personal notion from the mind-of-man as a solution to the problem created by his faulty theology.
So righteousness had to flow back to Christ not because He deserved it (which He did), but out of the grace of a promised inheritance. Otherwise, God would have no need to make the Promise to Christ...
The promised inheritance to Christ was not righteousness.
Christ never lost righteousness, he is God, it never needed to "flow back" to him, it was his all along.
The promised inheritance to Christ is seed, the church, which is his reward, inheritance, and more importantly, his perfectly spotless Bride, prepared for him by his own Father.
Christ having deserved His own righteousness would just take it up again as something He was owed ... as something he had a right to... no promise necessary... it was His to take.
The divine Son of God is not in the business of owning, losing and taking up again.
That flawed notion could come only from the mind of man.
The only reason to make a promise to Christ is if Christ was giving it up with the possibility of not getting it back again.
The promise to Christ was not about righteousness, it was about seed (Genesis 5:15).
You've gone off the NT rails here because you misunderstand the promise to Christ.
Having been cursed by the Law, and having the iniquity of all of us laid upon Him, I could see how that was a possibility. But throughout the OT God gave Him assurances. For example, through David, God promised not to leave His soul in Hades.
[Act 2:31-36 NASB95] 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY (cross ref: Psa 16:10). 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified."​
But whose righteousness was given to Abraham? God doesn't just create it and hand it out like cotton candy.
The righteousness of Jesus Christ was imputed to Abraham and the OT saints in advance of his atonement, in anticipation of that atonement (Romans 3:25-26).
If that were the case, there would have been no need for Jesus to die and give up His life (righteousness), and there would have been no need for Jesus to live a sinless life.
Agreed.
No need when He was a direct descendant... the genealogies make that clear. Yet Jesus did believe everything God promised Him... so he was both a physical and spiritual descendant - the unified man through whom both Jews and Gentiles can be saved.
I agree.
 
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Gup20

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Who made that rule?

You're comparing apples to oranges, the righteous divine to the sinful human.

Nope. . .Jesus didn't "put off" guilt imputed to him, he paid the penalty for it and, therefore, the guilt was justly required to be removed from him, and also from all those who apply his payment, by faith in that atonement for them.
No one gets to "put off" guilt, they get only to pay for it.

And having no guilt of his own, he was not made personally righteous through Abraham, for he was never personally unrighteous, as we were. He had to be righteous to qualify as the perfect sacrifice.
Jesus is the divine son of God, therefore, he is neither unrighteous nor is he under Abraham, receiving Abraham's righteousness for himself.
Who made that rule?
If Christ is never made personally unrighteous by our sin, then we are never made personally righteous by His obedience.

You have neither the power to impute righteousness, nor the power to remove it.
That is God's sovereign domain, and he has revealed in the NT how he administers it through faith.
You should read any of Paul's epistles in the NASB some time... not so much for sentence structure, but because the NASB capitalizes NT passages which are quotes from the OT. You will see that all of Paul's doctrines come from the Old Testament. You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

The same way the guy down at the prison "overcomes" his just guilt--by paying the penalty (prison time), so Jesus paid the penalty of death, which in justice removes the guilt.
Thats all fine and dandy except that the punishment for sin is death. The question is how does Jesus "survive" death due to Him for our sin?

Correct, the Law makes no one righteous, it was not given to make righteous, it was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). "All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10).
Christ himself was never made unrighteous, he was made a sin offering (as previously explained), our sin was laid on him, as sin was laid on the animal sacrifice (the animal did not become a sinner, animals cannot sin, it became a sin bearer). If he were not completely righteous, he could not qualify to be our perfect sacrifice.
Christ Himself (personally) was cursed by The Law when he was hung on a tree. The law says plainly anyone hung on a tree is accursed of God. Jesus was hung on a tree. The lamb had to be without spot or wrinkle. Once the sacrificial slaughter began, do you think the priest stopped and said "oh ... this sacrifice is unworthy because it's bleeding now." No the sacrifice had to be spotless to qualify as the substitution, not spotless throughout the atonement process. Clearly, by the laying on of hands, the sin of individuals and nations is laid upon the sacrifice and it bares their sin, making it no longer pure. The death of the animal then satisfied justice (which says that sinful things die).

The righteousness that Christ is and has, was never "given up," it was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) who shared in it through faith.
Righteousness and life are synonymous (see Gal 3:21, Rom 5:17). If Christ never gave up His righteousness, then He never died. But He did die, and God separated from Him and 'forsook' Him (unless you think Christ lied on the cross). Christ then spent 3 days in Hades where he lead captivity captive before being raised from the dead, and being seen by Mary Magdalene and ascending to the right hand of the Father.

Jesus does not inherit righteousness from sinful man (Romans 5:18).
We're talking about the divine Son of God here! God partakes in no sin, he bears the sin of others.
Jesus is divine righteousness himself.

How weak you must view Christ's righteousness that it cannot cleanse a single person (Abraham) from their sin. You still consider Abraham, having been given the righteous of God, to be a sinful man.
 
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Clare73

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If Christ is never made personally unrighteous by our sin,
then we are never made personally righteous by His obedience.
Who made that rule?

Previsouly addressed.
You should read any of Paul's epistles in the NASB some time... not so much for sentence structure, but because the NASB capitalizes NT passages which are quotes from the OT. You will see that all of Paul's doctrines come from the Old Testament.
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
Strawman. . .please demonstrate where I dismiss Paul's doctrine.
Actually, I don't dismiss Paul's doctrines, I defend them against your misunderstanding of them.
Thats all fine and dandy except that the punishment for sin is death.
The punishment for sin is physical death (Genesis 2:16).
The question is how does Jesus "survive" death due to Him for our sin?
He chose to become our sin bearer, and he rose again from that physical death.
Christ Himself (personally) was cursed by The Law when he was hung on a tree. The law says plainly anyone hung on a tree is accursed of God. Jesus was hung on a tree. The lamb had to be without spot or wrinkle. Once the sacrificial slaughter began, do you think the priest stopped and said "oh ... this sacrifice is unworthy because it's bleeding now."
No the sacrifice had to be spotless to qualify as the substitution, not spotless throughout the atonement process.
No, the sacrifice had to be without natural physical defect or deformation.
Nothing in the process of sacrificing (dying by shedding of blood) would change that.
Clearly, by the laying on of hands, the sin of individuals and nations is laid upon the sacrifice and it bares their sin, making it no longer pure. The death of the animal then satisfied justice (which says that sinful things die).
Making it a sin-bearer, not a sinner. . .for two reasons:
1) Goes does not become sin. . .that is blasphemy.
2) Animals cannot become sinners. . .sin is spiritual, they are not.
Both became sin-bearers (1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:28).
Righteousness and life are synonymous (see Gal 3:21, Rom 5:17).
Righteousness and eternal life are synonymous.
If Christ never gave up His righteousness, then He never died.
But Christ did not give up his own eternal life, so he did not give up his own righteousness.
But He did die,
He died physically.
and God separated from Him and 'forsook' Him (unless you think Christ lied on the cross). Christ then spent 3 days in Hades where he lead captivity captive
He led captivity (those who had made others captives) as captives (Colossians 2:15).
before being raised from the dead, and being seen by Mary Magdalene and ascending to the right hand of the Father.
None of which demonstrates he lost eternal life.
We likewise do not lose eternal life between death and resurrection (Philippians 1:21, 23).
How weak you must view Christ's righteousness that it cannot cleanse a single person (Abraham) from their sin. You still consider Abraham, having been given the righteous of God, to be a sinful man.
Let's unpack Abrahams' imputed righteousness.

Christ's righteousness has also been imputed to me, just as it was to Abraham (Romans 4:1-11).
Am I therefore sinless?
If so, then why does the NT teach that I am not without sin, which I must confess (1 John 1:8-10)?
And does my imputed righteousness put me in a position for anyone to inherit my imputed righteousness, which is the same righteousness as Abraham's?

The divine Christ does not inherit righteousness (from Abraham), it is his nature as divinity.
God took Abraham out of that loop (post #104).
Christ cannot be both unrighteous and divine, that is blasphemy.
He is not and was not made a sinner, he was a sin-bearer (1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:28), and was made a sin offering (harmatia, Romans 8:3) by his own Father (Romans 3:25), as in Abraham and Isaac.

You are not letting NT doctrine form your theology, you are letting your theology form your contra-NT doctrine.
 
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Gup20

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Who made that rule?

Previsouly addressed.
God said so.

[Isa 53:6 NASB20] 6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the wrongdoing of us all To fall on Him.​

[2Co 5:21 NASB20] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

[Gal 3:13 NASB20] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--​

Strawman. . .please demonstrate where I dismiss Paul's doctrine.
I don't dismiss Paul's doctrines, I defend them against your misunderstanding of them.
Sure:
What I like to call the Bible's chapter on "free will" & Calvinism is Deuteronomy 30.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB20] 1 "So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call [them] to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you, ... 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants (zera, seed, singular), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you could say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, 'Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 14 "On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 "See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants (seed, singular, zera),
3 times in this chapter it says that the choice for salvation (life & death) is a choice that God sets before man. It says the choice is not made in heaven, and is not too difficult for you to make on your own. It says you do not need heaven to come down and make you hear (the gospel) so that you can believe it and follow it.

Literally, the only defense to this I've ever been able to get from Calvinists (in years of making this argument) is that this is the Old Testament and only applies to the Jews. To curtail that line of reasoning, let me bring in the Apostle Paul's take on Deuteronomy 30 (neverminded the context is "circumcision of the heart").

[Rom 10:5-13 NASB20] 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart [a person] believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
So Paul says the choice discussed in Deuteronomy 30 is regarding the righteousness based on faith, and that it is the word of faith that they are preaching. Paul says "do not say" that you need the Holy Spirit to indwell you to help you hear the gospel and believe. You can make this choice ... it is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

While I wouldn't call it free will... I would say that God has given man a distinct, binary choice between life and death and commanded him to choose. Just in case he is daft, God gives man a hint; choose life.

I like to give an example of this; lets say I tell my child she can have oatmeal or pancakes for breakfast... but FYI, the pancakes are way better. Am I still completely sovereign over my child's breakfast? Yes, because she cannot freely choose, for example, steak and eggs. But does my child have a choice and a say in it? Certainly she does! Does it diminish my authority over breakfast? Not in the least. Does her having a choice change that I am the one providing breakfast? Not in the slightest because I gave her that choice.

Now here is something interesting. I saw an debate once with Dr James White (Calvinist) who argued about the 'monergistic' vs 'synergistic' nature of salvation. He said there wasn't a single verse in the Bible that indicated a synergistic model of salvation. But that seemed off to me... especially given what we know of the binary choice God gives man regarding the righteousness which comes through faith.

[Deu 30:19 NASB20] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
[Rom 8:15-17 NASB20] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons [and daughters] by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
In Romans 10:5-13 Paul CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY calls passages from Deuteronomy 30 "the righteousness based on faith" and "the word of faith we are preaching" and you have dismissed Paul's teaching of Deuteronomy 30 as "Deuteronomy 30:11-15 refer to natural life and death (v.15), not salvation" when Paul unequivocally says Deuteronomy 30 is talking about the righteousness based on faith and salvation. You should have know this already since Deuteronomy 30:6 speaks of circumcision of the heart. Therefore, the choice offered 3 times in Deuteronomy 30 is in regards to salvation.

[Deu 30:19 NASB20] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The punishment for sin is physical death (Genesis 2:16).
He chose to become our sin bearer, and he rose again from that physical death.

Making it a sin-bearer, not a sinner. . .for two reasons:
1) Goes does not become sin.
2) Animals cannot become sinners.
Both became sin-bearers.
Where is that in scripture. The scripture clearly says that Jesus BECAME sin (with over 95% of Bible translators agreeing that BECAME is the correct verb).

Additionally,
Righteousness and eternal life are synonymous.

But Christ did not give up his own eternal life, so he did not give up his own righteousness.
But He did die,
He died physically.
If He only died physically and not spiritually, then He only atoned for us physically and not spiritually.

None of which demonstrates he lost eternal life.
Let's unpack Abrahams' imputed righteousness.

Christ's righteousness has also been imputed to me, just as it was to Abraham (Romans 4:1-11).
Am I therefore sinless?
If so, then why does the NT teach that I am not without sin, which I must confess (1 John 1:8-10)?
And does my imputed righteousness put me in a position for anyone to inherit my imputed righteousness, which is the same righteousness as Abraham's?

The divine Christ does not inherit righteousness (from Abraham), it is his nature as divinity.
He cannot be both unrighteous and divine, that is blasphemy.
He is not and was not made a sinner, he is a sin-bearer, and was made a sin offering (harmatia) by his own Father (Romans 3:25), as in the case of Abraham and Isaac.
If Christ didn't die spiritually, then how could He have been "forsaken" by God on the cross? If Christ didn't die spiritually, why did He require the "promise of the Spirit by faith" having been the one to whom the promise of the Spirit by faith was made? If Jesus didn't die spiritually, why didn't He go to be with the Father for 3 days?

You are not free from sin and death because you walk by faith, and not by sight... you have not yet died. Once you die, your living, righteous spirit survives the death of your body and you are immediately with God, free from your flesh which bears your sin. We have only the first installment of our full inheritance (the Holy Spirit) which brings our spirit to life, though we live in sinful, condemned outer flesh. At the resurrection, we will have our full inheritance and get our glorified, resurrected, cleansed bodies.

[Rom 8:10 NASB20] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

[2Co 5:6, 8 NASB20] 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- ... 8 but we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

[Heb 1:2, 4 NASB20] 2 in these last days has spoken to us in [His] Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. ... 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they.​

Jesus first descended into Hell so that he could take the keys of death from the devil. Also, if Jesus was spiritually alive, He would have no need to wait on God to raise Him from the dead... He would have resurrected Himself since He was never dead. But a spiritually dead man cannot resurrect himself. Further, spiritually alive people do not go to Hades.

[Rev 1:18 NASB95] 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.​

[Eph 4:8-10 NASB95] 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this [expression,] "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

[Rom 6:4 NASB95] 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

[Gal 1:1 NASB95] 1 Paul, an apostle (not [sent] from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),​

So as a human, Jesus was dead, but now He has eternal life.
 
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Clare73

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God said so.
[Isa 53:6 NASB20] 6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the wrongdoing of us all To fall on Him.​

[2Co 5:21 NASB20] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

[Gal 3:13 NASB20] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--​

Sure:

In Romans 10:5-13 Paul CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY calls passages from Deuteronomy 30 "the righteousness based on faith" and "the word of faith we are preaching" and you have dismissed Paul's teaching of Deuteronomy 30 as "Deuteronomy 30:11-15 refer to natural life and death (v.15), not salvation" when Paul unequivocally says Deuteronomy 30 is talking about the righteousness based on faith and salvation. You should have know this already since Deuteronomy 30:6 speaks of circumcision of the heart. Therefore, the choice offered 3 times in Deuteronomy 30 is in regards to salvation.

[Deu 30:19 NASB20] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​
Where is that in scripture. The scripture clearly says that Jesus BECAME sin (with over 95% of Bible translators agreeing that BECAME is the correct verb).
That "sin" (harmatia) there means "sin offering," as it is translated in Romans 8:3, has been previously addressed. . .more than once.
If He only died physically and not spiritually, then He only atoned for us physically and not spiritually.
If Christ didn't die spiritually, then how could He have been "forsaken" by God on the cross? If Christ didn't die spiritually, why did He require the "promise of the Spirit by faith" having been the one to whom the promise of the Spirit by faith was made? If Jesus didn't die spiritually, why didn't He go to be with the Father for 3 days?

You are not free from sin and death because you walk by faith, and not by sight... you have not yet died. Once you die, your living, righteous spirit survives the death of your body and you are immediately with God, free from your flesh which bears your sin. We have only the first installment of our full inheritance (the Holy Spirit) which brings our spirit to life, though we live in sinful, condemned outer flesh. At the resurrection, we will have our full inheritance and get our glorified, resurrected, cleansed bodies.

[Rom 8:10 NASB20] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

[2Co 5:6, 8 NASB20] 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- ... 8 but we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

[Heb 1:2, 4 NASB20] 2 in these last days has spoken to us in [His] Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. ... 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they.​

Jesus first descended into Hell so that he could take the keys of death from the devil. Also, if Jesus was spiritually alive, He would have no need to wait on God to raise Him from the dead... He would have resurrected Himself since He was never dead. But a spiritually dead man cannot resurrect himself. Further, spiritually alive people do not go to Hades.

[Rev 1:18 NASB95] 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.​

[Eph 4:8-10 NASB95] 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this [expression,] "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

[Rom 6:4 NASB95] 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

[Gal 1:1 NASB95] 1 Paul, an apostle (not [sent] from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),​

So as a human, Jesus was dead, but now He has eternal life.
God is eternal (Romans 16:16).
Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is eternal life (John 14:6).
Jesus is the source of our eternal life (John 10:28).
Eternal life is spiritual.
Eternal life is eternal, it does not die.

Jesus did not die spiritually, by the death of his own eternal life, thereby ceasing to be God (John 1:1).

Your understanding of the Trinity is contra-Biblical, and the source of all your Biblical error regarding Jesus' atonement.
 
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Gup20

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Which is not in him, thereby making him a sinner.
He was a sin-bearer, (1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:28), not a sinner himself.​
I agree with you. The punishment is the same either way - death.
Previously addressed.
The Greek word for sin there is harmatia, which also means "sin offering" (sacrifice) as in Romans 8:3.Cursed for our sin which be bore, but not sin in himself, a sinner. Divinity cannot partake of sin, and Christ did not lose his divinity, or his sacrifice would be inadequate.​

1) You have not shown that the above Scriptures mean Christ took our sin within himself, becoming a sinner himself, rather than being the sin-bearer of 1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:8.​

Of the 15 top translations, only the NLT translates it as "offering for sin." So while it can mean "offering for sin" it CAN also mean to "be sin" which is how the vast majority of Bible scholars translate it. Further, you have yet to show that the affect is any different. For example, I don't see any verses which say that the offering for sin is not "as guilty" as the sinner himself. Further, I don't see any sacrificed animals coming back to life once they have finished serving the purpose of the sacrifice because they were not actually guilty of the sin placed upon them, so you are still left explaining how a sacrifice, once dead, comes back to life.

In fact, ALL animals and people are described as having Nehpesh Chayah - soulish life. Plants do not have this kind of life. Not one animal has ever been guilty of sin, yet all animals die and have never been resurrected. The actual innocence, then, of the sacrifice is irrelevant beyond qualifying them as an acceptable sacrifice.

You are incorrect about Deuteronomy 30:11-15.
It refers to Deuteronomy 28:11-20, the earthly curses for disobedience, which are natural life and natural death (Deuteronomy 30:15).
You must demonstrate from Deuteronomy 28 and 30 that it does not mean natural life and natural death for your argument to have merit.
Paul doesn't describe Deuteronomy 28 as being "the word of faith we are preaching" or "the righteousness based on faith." He does describe Deuteronomy 30 that way. So you are directly contradicting Paul.

2) You have not demonstrated, only asserted, that Deuteronomy 30:11-15 refers to salvation.
False.
[3) You have not demonstrated that Jesus became sin.
Strawman. . .
He made him who knew no sin TO BE sin on our behalf that we might BECOME the righteousness of God in Him. Further, Jesus was CURSED by the law... not indirectly, but DIRECTLY. For we did not die on a tree - He did. He, having died on a tree - is personally and individually cursed. That wasn't one of ours laid upon Him ... that was something He, Himself, did.

Granted, Jesus was only in that position as a substitutionary atonement for us. Yet still, that wasn't our works laid upon Him... that was something He did. He was hung on a tree, not us. The Bible doesn't say "he who is hung on a tree is accursed, unless he didn't deserve to be on the tree."

Physical death and spiritual death are not of the same order.
Spiritual death is no eternal life.
Jesus is eternal life (John 14:6; John 1:28).
God did not annihilate Jesus on the cross causing him to die spiritually--to lose eternal life,
nor did Jesus annihilate himself on the cross.

The following from the NT teaching on the consequential difference between physical death and spiritual death is going to take some serious thinking through:

I. Physical death is to be without natural life, spiritual death is to be without eternal life.
We are born in spiritual death--without eternal life.
We are spiritually reborn into eternal life by the sovereign operation of the Holy Spirit (John 3:7-8).
I agree.
Jesus did not atone for the spiritual death into which we were born.
He atoned for the guilt of sin, imputed to us from Adam at our conception, and for our own guilt of sin.
In rebirth from spiritual death (which is not caused by our sin) into eternal life, at whatever age,
the sin/guilt of both Adam and ourselves is remitted (forgiven - cancellation of our sin penalty/debt) by faith in and trust on Jesus' atonement (Romans 3:25).
I disagree. By his appearing (not his death and resurrection) he eliminated Adam's judgement of spiritual death.

[2Ti 1:10 NASB20] 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
.

Because no righteous man was in the world, Adam's judgement was just and justified. We all sinned, and since no pure one was found, a corporate, universal judgement was just. However, at the appearance of a righteous man, it necessitates a whole repeal of Adam's corporate judgement. At this, ALL humanity is resurrected - be they righteous or wicked - to face the Great White Throne Judgment which shall by an individual judgment. Therefore, the death and guilt in Adam will become irrelevant to eternity. It will be how you fare in the White Throne judgement which will determine your eternal destiny. It is the INDIVIDUAL judgement where the righteousness of Christ is applied to the believer. So Adam's guilt & judgement will not play a role in our eternal life.

[Rev 5:3-5 NASB20] 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 And one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome [so as to be able] to open the scroll and its seven seals."


As shown in the above, Jesus' atonement (salvation) is not directly related to our rebirth from eternal death into eternal life.
That rebirth is an operation of the Holy Spirit before faith. . .which results in faith as a gift
(Philippians 1:29; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; 2 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3)
---rebirth being freely-bestowed by a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit. . .we have nothing to do with it (John 3:7-8)---
which faith results in salvation by Jesus' atonement being applied to us.
Jesus atonement does not directly cause our spiritual rebirth.

None of the scriptures you listed actually show the order. These two scriptures unequivocally say the Holy Spirit comes AFTER faith, not before faith as you have incorrectly asserted:

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

Further, we see Jesus clarify His statement from John 6:44 by showing a cause and effect relationship between faith and coming to the Father:

[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB20] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

So the CAUSE (the reason) of not being able to come to the Father is the faith of the individual, not the other way around as all calvinists assert for John 6:44. Jesus knew "from the beginning" or "from the foundation of the world" who would believe, and it is their faith which was the cause of election.
 
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Clare73

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I agree with you. The punishment is the same either way - death.
Of the 15 top translations, only the NLT translates it as "offering for sin." So
while it can mean "offering for sin" it CAN also mean to "be sin" which is how the vast majority of Bible scholars translate it.
"Sin offering" is more in agreement with 1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:28, of sin-bearer.
Further, you have yet to show that the affect is any different. For example, I don't see any verses which say that the offering for sin is not "as guilty" as the sinner himself. Further, I don't see any sacrificed animals coming back to life once they have finished serving the purpose of the sacrifice because they were not actually guilty of the sin placed upon them, so you are still left explaining how a sacrifice, once dead, comes back to life.
He came back to life because God raised him from the dead (Acts 2:24; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:20, etc.), his work having been finished (John 19:30), he could now return to the Father.
In fact, ALL animals and people are described as having Nehpesh Chayah - soulish life. Plants do not have this kind of life. Not one animal has ever been guilty of sin, yet all animals die and have never been resurrected. The actual innocence, then, of the sacrifice is irrelevant beyond qualifying them as an acceptable sacrifice.

Paul doesn't describe Deuteronomy 28 as being "the word of faith we are preaching" or "the righteousness based on faith." He does describe Deuteronomy 30 that way. So you are directly contradicting Paul.

False.
He made him who knew no sin TO BE sin on our behalf that we might BECOME the righteousness of God in Him.
In a marvelous exchange, Christ took our sin upon himself as a sin offering (harmatia)
and gave us his righteousness.
Further, Jesus was CURSED by the law... not indirectly, but DIRECTLY. For we did not die on a tree - He did. He, having died on a tree - is personally and individually cursed. That wasn't one of ours laid upon Him ... that was something He, Himself, did.

Granted, Jesus was only in that position as a substitutionary atonement for us. Yet still, that wasn't our works laid upon Him... that was something He did. He was hung on a tree, not us. The Bible doesn't say "he who is hung on a tree is accursed, unless he didn't deserve to be on the tree."


I agree.

I disagree. By his appearing (not his death and resurrection) he eliminated Adam's judgement of spiritual death.

[2Ti 1:10 NASB20] 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
.

Because no righteous man was in the world, Adam's judgement was just and justified. We all sinned, and since no pure one was found, a corporate, universal judgement was just. However, at the appearance of a righteous man, it necessitates a whole repeal of Adam's corporate judgement. At this, ALL humanity is resurrected - be they righteous or wicked - to face the Great White Throne Judgment which shall by an individual judgment. Therefore, the death and guilt in Adam will become irrelevant to eternity. It will be how you fare in the White Throne judgement which will determine your eternal destiny. It is the INDIVIDUAL judgement where the righteousness of Christ is applied to the believer. So Adam's guilt & judgement will not play a role in our eternal life.

[Rev 5:3-5 NASB20] 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 And one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome [so as to be able] to open the scroll and its seven seals."​
None of the scriptures you listed actually show the order. These two scriptures unequivocally say the Holy Spirit comes AFTER faith, not before faith as you have incorrectly asserted:
[Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
There is no faith apart from the Holy Spirit.
1) having believed, 2) you were sealed
Faith precedes the sealing, which faith is only by the Holy Spirit.
They were born again by the Holy Spirit before they believed.
And then following that belief, they were sealed with the mark of ownership, the promised Holy Spirit.
The rebirth by the Holy Spirit, and the sealing by the Holy Spirit are two different events.
14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
Further, we see Jesus clarify His statement from John 6:44 by showing a cause and effect relationship between faith and coming to the Father:
[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB20] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have told you that
no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
So the CAUSE (the reason) of not being able to come to the Father is the faith of the individual, not the other way around as all calvinists assert for John 6:44.
Actually, according to Jesus, the cause of not being able to come to the Father is that
it (faith to come) has not been granted him from the Father.
It corresponds to "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65). . .
which is precisely
"as all calvinists assert for John 6:44."
Jesus knew from the beginning. . .who would believe
and it is their faith which was the cause of election.
"From the beginning" meaning when he called them to be apostles.

In conclusion:

God is eternal (Romans 16:16).
Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is eternal life (John 14:6).
Jesus is the source of our eternal life (John 10:28).
Eternal life is spiritual.
Eternal life is eternal, it does not die.

Jesus did not die spiritually, by the death of of his own eternal life, thereby ceasing to be God (John 1:1).

Your understanding of the Trinity is contra-Biblical, and the source of all your Biblical error regarding Jesus' atonement.
 
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Gup20

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God is eternal (Romans 16:16).
Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is eternal life (John 14:6).
Jesus is the source of our eternal life (John 10:28).
Eternal life is spiritual.
Eternal life is eternal.
Eternal life does not die.

Jesus did not die spiritually, losing eternal life, thereby ceasing to be God (John 1:1).

Your understanding of the Trinity is contra-Biblical.
I didn't mention the Trinity. Quick question: did Adam have spiritual life (eternal life) before he sinned and was judged with death? Did sin directly affect that life?

What do you suppose is meant by "my God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?"


[Psa 22:1 NASB20] 1 For the music director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my help are the words of my groaning.

[Psa 37:25 NASB20] 25 I have been young and now I am old, Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken Or his descendants begging for bread.​

[Isa 6:12 NASB20] 12 The LORD has completely removed people, And there are many forsaken places in the midst of the land.​

[Act 2:27 NASB20] 27 FOR YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR WILL YOU ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.

[Mat 27:46 NASB20] 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"​

When Jesus says "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me, the word "forsaken" is the Greek egkataleipō and means "abandoned" or "deserted". The Hebrew version is āzaḇ which means to leave, depart from, or abandon. The clear implication here is that God separated from Christ when the sin of the world was laid UPON Him - spiritual death.

If you can offer a semi-cogent reason why I shouldn't take the straight forward meaning of this, please let me know.
 
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Clare73

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I didn't mention the Trinity.
And?. . .you thoroughly trounced it with your handling of the doctrine of the divine Christ, who is God.
Quick question: did Adam have spiritual life (eternal life)
Was Adam divine?

Was Adam "the way, the truth and the life"?

Jesus and Adam are not equivalent in nature, the former being also divine while the latter only human.
Their relation to sin is not equivalent.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .
before he sinned and was judged with death? Did sin directly affect that life?

What do you suppose is meant by "my God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?"
The separation, breaking, tearing asunder of the relationship, as God regarded and treated him as a vile criminal and enemy (which we were, Romans 5:10).

And that is not spiritual death.
Spiritual death is loss of eternal life. We are born in spiritual death, without eternal life, until we are reborn into eternal life.
Jesus did not lose eternal life, Jesus is eternal life, he cannot lose it without ceasing to be God.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

[Psa 22:1 NASB20] 1 For the music director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my help are the words of my groaning.

[Psa 37:25 NASB20] 25 I have been young and now I am old, Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken Or his descendants begging for bread.​

[Isa 6:12 NASB20] 12 The LORD has completely removed people, And there are many forsaken places in the midst of the land.​

[Act 2:27 NASB20] 27 FOR YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR WILL YOU ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.

[Mat 27:46 NASB20] 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"​
When Jesus says "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me, the word "forsaken" is the Greek egkataleipō and means "abandoned" or "deserted". The Hebrew version is āzaḇ which means to leave, depart from, or abandon. The clear implication here is that God separated from Christ when the sin of the world was laid UPON Him - spiritual death.
That is not spiritual death, spiritual death is the loss of eternal life.
We are born in spiritual death, and must be reborn into eternal life.
This is abandonment of relationship, a turning against Jesus, regarding him as an enemy.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .
If you can offer a semi-cogent reason why I shouldn't take the straight forward meaning of this, please let me know.
The straight-forward meaning regards abandonment and desertion,
not your assertion of it being "spiritual death;" i.e., loss of eternal life.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

The cross was not about eternal life which Jesus, as divine, cannot lose,
the cross was about desertion and enmity.
 
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Mark Quayle

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And?. . .you thoroughly trounced it with your handling of the divine Christ.

Was Adam divine?

Was Adam "the way, the truth and the life"?

Jesus and Adam are not equivalent in nature.
Their relation to sin is not equivalent.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

The separation, breaking, tearing asunder of the relationship, as God regarded and treated him as a vile criminal and enemy (which we were, Romans 5:10).

That is not spiritual death.
Spiritual death is loss of eternal life. We are born in spiritual death, without eternal life, until we are reborn into eternal life.
Jesus did not lose eternal life, Jesus is eternal life, he cannot lose it.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

That is not spiritual death, spiritual death is the loss of eternal life.
We are born in spiritual death, and must be reborn into eternal life.
That is abandonment of relationship, a turning against Jesus, regarding him as an enemy.

The straight-forward meaning regards abandonment and desertion,
not your assertion of that being "spiritual death;" i.e., loss of eternal life.

Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

The cross was not about eternal life which Jesus, as divine, cannot lose,
the cross was about desertion and enmity.
As an aside, not altogether off-topic, this has been a beautiful proof against the notion that a mere angel, or any other being but God himself, could have been the sacrifice for the sins of the Elect.
 
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Gup20

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And?. . .you thoroughly trounced it with your handling of the divine Christ.

Was Adam divine?

Was Adam "the way, the truth and the life"?

Jesus and Adam are not equivalent in nature, the former being also divine while the latter only human.
Their relation to sin is not equivalent.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

The separation, breaking, tearing asunder of the relationship, as God regarded and treated him as a vile criminal and enemy (which we were, Romans 5:10).

That is not spiritual death.
Spiritual death is loss of eternal life. We are born in spiritual death, without eternal life, until we are reborn into eternal life.
Jesus did not lose eternal life, Jesus is eternal life, he cannot lose it without ceasing to be God.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

That is not spiritual death, spiritual death is the loss of eternal life.
We are born in spiritual death, and must be reborn into eternal life.
This is abandonment of relationship, a turning against Jesus, regarding him as an enemy.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

The straight-forward meaning regards abandonment and desertion,
not your assertion of it being "spiritual death;" i.e., loss of eternal life.
Mishandling of the Trinity again. . .

The cross was not about eternal life which Jesus, as divine, cannot lose,
the cross was about desertion and enmity.
[Isa 54:6-8 NASB20] 6 "For the LORD has called you, Like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, Even like a wife of [one's] youth when she is rejected," Says your God. 7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you, But with great compassion I will gather you. 8 "In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting favor I will have compassion on you," Says the LORD your Redeemer.

[Jhn 4:24 NASB20] 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Don't be foolish. God the Father does not have physical form. God cannot abandon someone physically, He is Spirit, and can only abandon them Spiritually. Further, Jesus was alive when he said "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" ... so it wasn't physical death he was talking about, but Spiritual death. Further still, He went to Hades for 3 days. Spiritually alive people don't go to Hades.

[Gal 3:14 NASB20] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

[Act 2:33 NASB20] 33 "Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear.​

Why would God need to promise Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit if he never spiritually died or never was separated from the Holy Spirit?
 
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Clare73

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[Isa 54:6-8 NASB20] 6 "For the LORD has called you, Like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, Even like a wife of [one's] youth when she is rejected," Says your God. 7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you, But with great compassion I will gather you. 8 "In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting favor I will have compassion on you," Says the LORD your Redeemer.
[Jhn 4:24 NASB20] 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."​
Don't be foolish. God the Father does not have physical form. God cannot abandon someone physically, He is Spirit, and can only abandon them Spiritually.
And if you don't think that is personally (physically) experienced, then you don't understand what Jesus was talking about.
Further, Jesus was alive when he said "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" ... so it wasn't physical death he was talking about, but Spiritual death. Further still, He went to Hades for 3 days. Spiritually alive people don't go to Hades.
Previously addressed, any error of which has not been Biblically demonstrated.
[Gal 3:14 NASB20] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles,
so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
That blessing was the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33, 39).
[Act 2:33 NASB20] 33 "Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear.
Why would God need to promise Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit if he never spiritually died or never was separated from the Holy Spirit?
Previously addressed, any error of which has not been Biblically demonstrated.
 
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Gup20

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And if you don't think that is personally (physically) experienced, then you don't understand what Jesus was talking about.

Previously addressed, any error of which has not been Biblically demonstrated.
That blessing was the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33, 39).

Previously addressed, any error of which has not been Biblically demonstrated.
In other words, you still can’t answer any of these points.
 
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Clare73

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In other words, you still can’t answer any of these points.
Can you Biblically demonstrate any errors in my previous responses to those points?
.
 
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Gup20

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"Sin offering" is more in agreement with 1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:28, of sin-bearer.

God is eternal (Romans 16:16).
Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is eternal life (John 14:6).
Jesus is the source of our eternal life (John 10:28).
Eternal life is spiritual.
Eternal life is eternal, it does not die.

Revelation 20:11-14 (NASB20) 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB20) 1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

Death & Life are both eternal my friend. Death doesn’t, nor has it ever, mean anihilation. It means separation from God. Those in everlasting contempt will live forever separated.
 
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Clare73

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Revelation 20:11-14 (NASB20) 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB20) 1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​
Death & Life are both eternal my friend. Death doesn’t, nor has it ever, mean anihilation. It means separation from God. Those in everlasting contempt will live forever separated.
Relevance to my responses?

.​
 
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Gup20

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Relevance to my responses?

.​
You argued that since life was eternal, someone with eternal life cannot die.

this is an error because death is also eternal. Someone with eternal death can change from one eternal reality to another just as someone with eternal life can change (as Adam did). Adam was spiritually alive & would have remained so eternally had he not sinned. He moved from eternal life to eternal death… spiritual life to spiritual death.


Genesis 3:22 (NASB20) Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”--

John 4:14 (NASB20)
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

Revelation 22:1 (NASB20)
And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,

that fountain comes from the throne & was promised & then given to Christ after his death to effect his resurrection. God has also promised that Christ would never die again, after God abandoned & forsook him and subsequently gathered him back in.

You ignored that passage in Isaiah 54 which spoke of Christ, but it’s pretty clear.

why also was the fiery serpent the image of Christ on the cross? Because he became sin spiritually (obviously Christ didn’t physically become a serpent.


Numbers 21:8 (NASB20)
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and put it on a flag pole; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, and looks at it, will live.”

John 3:14 (NASB20)
“And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
 
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