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Free will, and original sin --a discussion continued

fhansen

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If God created us to sin, to disobey, then there is no other direct cause of sin/evil/disobedience than Him, regardless of His "transcendence". And He'd be less good and trustworthy than satan. It's only due to the free will of created beings that moral evil (sin) is even possible.
 
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BarnyFyfe

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Mighty nice of you to prove my point so quickly and thoroughly.
 
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BarnyFyfe

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And if you don't feel like putting in the meager effort necessary to follow a thread discussion....please don't reply out of context.
 
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SkyWriting

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Anyone got something like a chart or diagram that highlights this debate?
Both sides have scripture that they throw at each other.
The two cannot be reconciled.


 
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Cis.jd

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Nothing in this "response" answers the question I gave in that other thread. It's just "your logic is wrong" out of nothing.


But based on your arguments about free will and predestination in that thread, then we do have a problem with certain things in the Bible such as sin. Even the Lord's prayer becomes a problem.

I'm not interested in taking your round 2, i'm not going to beat a dead horse. God does help lead us to the right path – brilliantly paving the roads for us, at the end of the day we still chose whether to accept him or not.
 
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Clete

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The theological term for what you are presenting here is "Antinomy". It's a way for theologians to get around logical inconsistencies in their doctrine. Every single time that anyone (it's almost always Calvinists) deploys the "antinomy" trump card, I always make a point of thanking them for conceding the debate. Thanks!

The worst part of your tactic is that you begin by telling your opponent, who made a brilliant argument by the way, that he's the one who's logic is wrong! That's really rich because the very next thing you do after telling him that his logic is bad is to throw logic completely out the window and down the street!

Tell me this - and this is a serious question that I'd really like for you to try to respond too - what heretical doctrine(s) are we NOT allowed to call an "antinomy"? Just name any wacky doctrine at all that it wouldn't work on.

If I wanted to start preaching that God and Satan are the same being and that they're really just two sides of the same coin (which some nut cases actually believe, by the way). How would you prove me wrong if, in response to any argument you make to the contrary, I can just slip the old antinomy trump card out of my back pocket and slap it down on the table and tell you that your logic is wrong? In what fundamental way would that be any different that what you are doing here?

I think that whether you make an attempt to answer that or not, the question pretty much answers itself, right?

The fact is that there is no such thing as "human logic". I mean, there is, of course, a manner in which people think that isn't rational and that is based on emotionalism or something other than sound reason which could be rightly called "human logic" if you wanted to employ a figure of speech, but plain reason isn't what "human logic" is! If it were, we literally couldn't know anything at all.

Many in the Christian community seem to be gravitationally pulled toward this idea of real, actual, sound reason being "human logic". Those in the Charismatic movement are probably the group that does this most flagrantly. They'll just straight up tell you to your face that you should stop thinking about it and just believe it. And that's the whole entire point of adopting the attitude! Christians don't ever adopt this anti-intellectual attitude about anything else in their life. A Christian won't show up to a Home Owners Association meeting and employ such a tactic and tell the board that the broken leafless tree in their yard might appear dead but they answer to a higher authority than the board's ability to see and analyze evidence. When the transmission in their car goes out, they don't think that it's going to fix itself, they take it to a mechanic. When they bake a cake, they preheat the oven. When they put their pants on, its happens one leg at a time. Two plus two equals four. Etc. For every other aspect of their lives, reason works! It's only when it comes to matters of doctrine that they seem willing to toss their brains right down the sewer and sacrifice the singular tool that exists by which anyone has ever understood anything. They come up with a seemingly endless parade of reasons why they should ignore reason never noticing that they are using reason to pronounce every syllable of their self-defeating "arguments".

The truth is that there is no such thing as an irrational truth, nor could there be. There could not be a more blatantly obvious oxymoron than a truth that is not rational. Reason is utterly irrefragable. No truth can be uttered without it and no utterance of truth can be understood without it. Any attempt to undermine the veracity of reason, uses reason to do it and thus defeats itself the moment any such stupidity is uttered.

Okay, well I'm out of time. I could go on for some lengthy period of time on the subject but this will have to do for now. I'll be traveling tomorrow and out of town for several days and so it may be a while before I can post anything else.

Merry Christmas to you all and may God bless you and yours!

Clete
 
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rnmomof7

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I actually saw a thread here claiming that God Himself is not free to choose. Talk about your rabbit holes.

Could have been something I wrote...I asked if God has free will?
That is something to contemplate because He can not sin, He can not violate His attributes and He can not divide Himself or He ceases to be God..
 
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rnmomof7

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Can you explain how that justifies predestining a soul to hell before it is born?

Romans 9:
10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand,12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”c 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”d14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.


The question is ..does anyone deserve to be saved?
 
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SkyWriting

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- God planned, executes, and controls the location of each electron in the Cosmos.
- You can choose not to believe that.

This illustrates that the two sides are not able to be reconciled.

Except by God.

 
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Mark Quayle

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I have yet to see what it is you are claiming as "antinomy" on my part. But yes, Merry Christmas to you and yours, too!
 
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Mark Quayle

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None of this is a problem with God. If God says he predestines, then indeed he does so. He does NOT say he gives us free will, though he does imply choice. If Scripture is the authority, above our arguments, then you are on the losing side to say that free will determines his predestination.

He does not "help lead us to the right path". He leads us. Whether we follow (obey) him or not, as a matter of fact. For the elect, he leads in the ways of righteousness, FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE. This is not about us. But ok. enough, Cis.jd. God bless you.
 
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