Free will, and original sin --a discussion continued

[Mark Quayle]

Try to stick to my comment rather than agree with your own response to it.
Impossible to reconcile the two.

WHY, then is it impossible? What do you mean by free will, if it is irreconcilable with omniscience and predestination? I want to know more about God, before giving up on this. To me they fit perfectly, and not by God backing off.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Impossible to reconcile the two.
But with God....it is possible.
Logically....no.

Logically, too, though our human logic may fail. We do not operate on God's level, or rather, on his KIND of level.

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Long on hypothesis. Short on Scripture. Just like always. The Scripture support for Calvin's view of election is too ambiguous and general. So it rarely makes an appearance.

 

[SkyWriting]

Long on hypothesis. Short on Scripture. Just like always. The Scripture support for Calvin's view of election is too ambiguous and general. So it rarely makes an appearance.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Psalm 147:4-5
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 139:1-4
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Matthew 10:29-3
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

John 21:17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Psalm 56:8
You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?

Job 34:21
“For his eyes are on the ways of a man, and he sees all his steps.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,

Acts 17:27
That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Matthew 6:8
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Psalm 139:7-10
Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Proverbs 5:21
For a man's ways are before the eyes of the Lord, and he ponders all his paths.

Psalm 139:12
Even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.

Deuteronomy 29:29
“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Psalm 33:13-15
The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

 

[pdudgeon]

But we try. And when we do so with any hint of our participation in our own salvation, being dead spiritually, how can we possibly do something apart from God, to bring some kind of mechanical operation into play, that will cause God to react in our favor?

We do so only by faith.
It's the old "Swing a leg over the side of the boat, repeat" scenario.

 

[pdudgeon]

And there are other teachers as it should be.

Of course there are other teachers.
There will be teachers as long as there are students willing to listen; that's a given.
What matters in the long run is what they are teaching.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Psalm 147:4-5
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 139:1-4
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Matthew 10:29-3
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

John 21:17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Psalm 56:8
You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?

Job 34:21
“For his eyes are on the ways of a man, and he sees all his steps.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,

Acts 17:27
That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Matthew 6:8
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Psalm 139:7-10
Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Proverbs 5:21
For a man's ways are before the eyes of the Lord, and he ponders all his paths.

Psalm 139:12
Even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.

Deuteronomy 29:29
“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Psalm 33:13-15
The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

AMEN!!! And thank you, brother. So beautiful, so sweet, so perfect and untame, God is amazing like no other.

 

[pasifika]

So no free will? Good.

What about choice?

Hello, maybe when there is no free will, then you don't have any choice.....

 

[martymonster]

How can the finite human mind truly reconcile anything with omniscience?

It's all a mystery! Who can know it? Therefore, just accept it!

Gee, I never get sick of hearing this tired old argument, which is nothing but a lazy cop out. I guess God wasn't really serious when he said....

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you can't rap your mind around something, then fine....but please don't think that you speak on behalf of everyone.

 

[SkyWriting]

WHY, then is it impossible? What do you mean by free will, if it is irreconcilable with omniscience and predestination? I want to know more about God, before giving up on this. To me they fit perfectly, and not by God backing off.

They do fit together, Thank God.

- God is in full control of every thought you have and wants the best for you.
- You can choose not to believe that.

This proves that the two can not reconcile.

 

[ABCthings]

Anyone got something like a chart or diagram that highlights this debate?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

- God is in full control of every thought you have. . .

What do you mean by the above?

 

[Dave L]

The Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Free will only reacts to the reasons we base our choices on. That is to say, God controls our free choices through the reasons he provides for us to base our choices on.

Another way to clarify this is; in this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the reasons you base your choices on.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

 

[dqhall]

Jesus did not use the word, “predestination,” in his parables. According to Internet sources fewer than 1/3 of pastors are Calvinist. God knowing some of what what will happen in advance is not the same as God determining everything thing that will ever happen billions of years ago. Amazon improved book shopping for many. God had not taught people such advanced technology in Iron Age Israel. It was not known at that time.

 

[Hawkins]

We are repeating the same arguments of the Jews some 2000 years ago.

Calvinism is basically the view of the Essenes, which states that predestination is absolute thus no true freewill. The Pharisaic view is that predestination can somehow harmonized with freewill. As the term predestination of Christianity is based off what is said by Paul who is a Pharisee, the best bet is thus predestination can somehow harmonized with freewill.

That being said, almost everything is designed for the sake of facilitating freewill. Law is so designed such that the angels will have a choice (2/3 of them pass with 1/3 fall into the captivity of Satan). Similarly covenants are so designed that humans will have a choice (less 1/3 of them will be saved, thus through the narrow gate).

Freewill can go independent of God's knowledge. Under God's omnipotence, He can choose to ignore those dead in hell eternally, that's why it's called a permanent separation from God. On the other hand, God knows who is who before the creation with the names of the saved written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, so that you can verify at a later time who is predicted to be saved. This is somehow comprehended by humans as part of God's predestination, however without completely comprehending what it actually is.

Elect wise,
as said above, Law is to facilitate the freewill granted to the angels. 1/3 of them will fail as expected by how freewill shall work. When the same Law applied, no humans can pass (due to a difference in the degree of freewill and a difference of environment humans are put, plus a difference on intelligence that Satan/angels have the capability to keep humans under captivity when the angels' freewill is exercised).

So in order to save humans at all, a different form of judgment needs to be employed. This change comes with a dear price. A justification is made on the blood of Jesus Christ thus humans can be judged subjectively by Jesus Christ instead of objectively by Law.
Law is more about a clear cut without taking everything into consideration. For an example, a widow killed a person who murdered her husband and all her sons. Law may have to treat them the same, they both will face the same death penalty. God can judge more precisely than Law does, however a justification is needed to switch from the judgment by Law to the judgment by God.

What this switch won't affect is the dead. Whether the judgment is by Law or by Christ, the dead are still the dead. In effect such a switch only benefits the Elect. That's another reason why humans consider salvation being predestined for God's Elect.

God knows everything in advance, however it's not legitimate for Him to save based on His knowledge. He thus needs to set up Law/covenants for angels and humans to undergo a fair trial (the Final Judgment) to identify those being saved (the righteous). Predestination in my opinion, is mostly for His Elect. Predestination is required because it's not easy to identify which human is righteous which is not, as both behave the same in terms of Law (both are sinners). The righteous is thus predestined to be shown as the righteous/saved by the corresponding covenants. To put it another way, it's God's job to show you openly that you are a human of faith, in order for you to be saved through the New Covenant with a fair judgment from Jesus Christ. This "job" is predestination. You are predestined to face a series of choices such that you can be demonstrated openly that you are a person of faith.

On the other hand, Jesus/God has the right to save you even under the circumstance that your faith isn't fully shown, such as the thief on the cross. He doesn't show any works reflecting his faith, as reality didn't provide him with that chance. God/Jesus can save him without him doing anything, as a special case. It is so because the covenant requires humans to be saved by faith alone under a subjective judgment done by Jesus Christ. Most humans' salvation will demonstrate how God's judgment is a fair one, a few can saved without doing anything. Another few (not really it's about whoever qualified to be part of Israel) can be saved as lawfully chosen as God's witnesses.

 

[misput]

The Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Free will only reacts to the reasons we base our choices on. That is to say, God controls our free choices through the reasons he provides for us to base our choices on.

Another way to clarify this is; in this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the reasons you base your choices on.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

So God herds us around like sheep : ) You have not resolved anything.

 

[bling]

Most seem to agree “God is outside of time”, but do not understand the implications or understand how that would work.

If God is within time and there is an infinite amount of time before Adam comes on the scene, then Adam and Eve never happened, since an infinite amount of time has not taken place yet, so we say: God is outside of time and/or time was creation by God.

For the past 100 years it has been experimentally shown: “Time is relative” which supports the idea time being relative to God.

God being outside of time would mean God exists at the end of our time as will as existing at the beginning of our time at the same “time” in God’s perspective of time.

History is locked in and cannot be changed, even if God is the only one who knows something has happened it still happened and cannot be changed. God could redo something that happened, but the first time it happened still is part of history, but why would God ever want to redo history, since everything He did was perfect the first time, so He cannot change the perfect thing He did?

God at the end of human time would know all human choices throughout time as pure unchangeable happenings and be able to communicate that information back to Himself at the beginning of time, so God at the beginning of time knows everything “historically” man did in the future.

Let us say: you know for certain a free will choice a person made yesterday (historically) meaning they are locked in place, but does that mean they cannot be free will choices, just because today you know what they were? God at the end of time would know all free will choices throughout time as pure unchangeable history which does not keep them from being free will choices, so since God is outside of time that information is also known by God at the beginning of time which still does not keep them from being free will choices locked in place.

So how does God know for certainty what man will do in the future and still allow man to make free will choices; seems to be a dilemma, since the “future” is set by God knowing the future? The “future” is only “future” as far as man is concerned, since the future is set by being pure “history” as far as God is concerned. God is not forcing or setting man’s “future” free will choices, but it is man himself setting the man’s future, by the free will choices man “did make” in the future (which is history for God).

At the very moment God decides to make a particular person (which can be billions of years in the future for man) the person was born, lived a life, made free will choices, and went to heaven or hell, since God is not controlled by human time.

 

[misput]

The Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Free will only reacts to the reasons we base our choices on. That is to say, God controls our free choices through the reasons he provides for us to base our choices on.

Another way to clarify this is; in this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the reasons you base your choices on.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

The scripture clearly states, God created evil. Why are most unable to deal with that?

 

[Dave L]

So God herds us around like sheep : ) You have not resolved anything.

I would rather be under God's control than Satan's.

 

[i submitted to the Lord]

So no free will? Good.

What about choice?

There is choice. That is made abundantly clear in the Bible.

But the term "free will" should be taken off of any Christian vocabulary. There is a will in humans, there is certainly a will in God, yes. Nonetheless, all confusion around this subject arises from man's evil desires subject to this world's deceptions that resulted in the syncreting of an ungodly greek philosophy concept and perverted Christian theology, to call it somehow.

If a foreign term to the Bible should be used to describe our ability to choose, desire or will something out of the available alternatives and the inner motivations and influences we may be subject to, it is this: Agency. Nothing else.

The issues is then. Of whom are we agents?

Freedom in the Bible has a very distinct and different meaning to the so-called freedom of this world and which is the "freedom" appended to the word "will" in "free will" . This world freedom is in effect a bondage, even if unbeknownst to the bonded. This deceptive freedom could even maybe be experienced because the people who think they are "free" in fact love so much to be bonded to sin and darkness that they rejoice in their freedom from righteousness.