Free will and determinism

[Neogaia777]

They prefer to suffer. I don't think so, give them credit. Stop reducing them to robots. What about those who give their life to save another. They choose to put themselves in danger and want to die or suffer. Thats just silly.

Some people prefer to suffer for a time, but only so that they can learn from it, and form new programming from it, and know how to do/be/become better, etc.

And as far as people giving up, or laying down their life here, etc, for another, etc, Jesus says it's one of the greatest acts of love that a human being can give, etc, and a lot of us actually want that for us here, but don't truly really ever know it, or realize it here, until we are actually faced with it here most usually, etc.

God Bless.

 

[stevevw]

Please don't say 'we'. I know how things happen (or at least, in my opinion, I know how things happen). I've spent enough time explaining it.

So you know all things, congratulations god. As you said its your opinion and opinions are subjective and not fact.

So what you are saying is that you don't think that you know. Which is fair enough. You don't have an alternative.

Not knowing doesn't mean anything either way. Not being able to articulate an alternative doesn't mean there are none.

But bear this in mind. I can't prove I'm right. But you can prove me wrong. By giving a single example of a decision that was not determined by anything at all. Or even a single event that had no cause (and we've excluded the BB for reasons already given a number of times).

I keep saying that this is a false analogy. Free will is not the absense of pre determined processes. Its the act in opposition to pre determined processes. going against those determinations.

I think the idea of no free will itself is an example. If everything is determined and we have no free will then we are not responsible for the wrong decisions we make or the abilities we have. Yet we all act and live like we are responsible and that individuals are given credit for what they do.

Sometimes the proof is in the pudding and not a test tube.

 

[Neogaia777]

How (can) a neuron can produce subjective experience.

The program is so complex, that it makes every single one of us unique, which is why we can all see things differently, or all have very different and unique experiences, etc.

But regardless of the nigh infinite complexity of the program, it's still very, very much deterministic, and never really ever truly, truly infinite, etc. (But is just very, very close to it, etc).

God Bless.

 

[stevevw]

Some people prefer to suffer for a time, but only so that they can learn from it, and form new programming from it, and know how to do/be/become better, etc.

OK so what about those who died for Christ. They choose to die for Christ rather than live. They went against every cell in their phyical body and the world to suffer and lose their life.

And as far as people giving up, or laying down their life here, etc, for another, etc, Jesus says it's one of the greatest acts of love that a human being can give, etc, and a lot of us actually want that for us here, but don't truly really ever know it, or realize it here, until we are actually faced with it here most usually, etc.

God Bless.

I think the point is that act goes against every cell in our eathly bodies. Thats the reality, the physical reality that bears down on us and we cannot take that away. Yet we act against that. We can spiritually rise above that to where the deterministic physical forces are overcome for a higher purpose.

 

[stevevw]

The program is so complex, that it makes every single one of us unique, which is why we can all see things differently, or all have very different and unique experiences, etc.

But regardless of the nigh infinite complexity of the program, it's still very, very much deterministic, and never really ever truly, truly infinite, etc. (But is just very, very close to it, etc).

God Bless.

We are all different as far as our weak physical and fallen states are concerned. But we are all the same under Christ, spiritual beings, Gods children who can rise above our earthly condition.

 

[Neogaia777]

OK so what about those who died for Christ. They choose to die for Christ rather than live. They went against every cell in their phyical body and the world to suffer and lose their life.

Many of them back then counted it all joy to do it or be counted worthy of that back then duing that time and day and age when the Gospel was very first spreading, or was very first being spread/preached, etc, and very many after that as well, etc.

I think the point is that act goes against every cell in our eathly bodies. Thats the reality, the physical reality that bears down on us and we cannot take that away. Yet we act against that. We can spiritually rise above that to where the deterministic physical forces are overcome for a higher purpose.

It is truly a marvel the way we are made, but it still doesn't mean we were rising above all the determining factors that causes us to do those kinds of things sometimes, etc.

God Bless.

 

[stevevw]

Also, we are not talking about similar, but the exact same, etc. And I do mean "exact same", etc.

God Bless.

I find it hard to believe that say twins who are mostly the same even genetically, are brought up the same but maybe a couple of differences is going to determine big differences later in life. As though a persons life hinged on such small differences. I don't think those small difference have such power over ones life. At least not as much as our ability to change things.

Otherwise we are more or less allowing a small determinism to control our lives. I don't we are programmed to such a point that tiny differences dominant us. More the case that we are also the product of our own determinations which then deminish our freedoms. Its more a combination of forces battling each other with self in the driving seat.

 

[Neogaia777]

We are all different as far as our weak physical and fallen states are concerned. But we are all the same under Christ, spiritual beings, Gods children who can rise above our earthly condition.

We are all very, very different and unique spiritually as well, but are all "one" in God the Father and/or Jesus Christ, etc.

But God the Father already chose/determined the way each one would be from before anything was made, or reaching all the way back to and/or from eternity, etc.

We don't do that, but He already does/did always, etc.

God Bless.

 

[stevevw]

Many of them back then counted it all joy to do it or be counted worthy of that back then duing that time and day and age when the Gospel was very first spreading, or was very first being spread/preached, etc, and very many after that as well, etc.

First people still do it today. Second its not joy as we would know as far as deterministic joy, the joy of music or favourite icecream. Its a higher order joy beyond the earthly ideas which surpasses determinism. Storing up treasures in Heaven not earth.

To this world that joy is madness, goes against our instinct to survive as rational and programmed creatures driven by evolutionary processes. Reducing this to our genes would be reducing Gods power to our earthly bodies.

It is truly a marvel the way we are made, but it still doesn't mean we were rising above all the determining factors that causes us to do those kinds of things sometimes, etc.

God Bless.

Why. I don't think we can say, how the spirit of God works. It is certainly not working as our physical deterministic processes are working. So cannot be judged or measured by such determinations to begin with.

But I am also interested in Gods judgement. If we cannot help what we do then how are we responsible for sin. What is our conscience, just a make believe guilt trip put on us by nature. Or are we made in Gods image as well and more than the sum of our physical determinism.

 

[Neogaia777]

I find it hard to believe that say twins who are mostly the same even genetically, are brought up the same but maybe a couple of differences is going to determine big differences later in life. As though a persons life hinged on such small differences. I don't think those small difference have such power over ones life. At least not as much as our ability to change things.

Otherwise we are more or less allowing a small determinism to control our lives. I don't we are programmed to such a point that tiny differences dominant us. More the case that we are also the product of our own determinations which then deminish our freedoms. Its more a combination of forces battling each other with self in the driving seat.

God specializes in showing us or teaching us how some of the most very smallest, or seemingly most insignificant things, can lead to big changes, or can make a big huge difference in things much of the time, etc.

Have you ever heard of chaos theory? Only it's not chaos, but determinism in action, etc. And that's according to the way God determined it, etc. Very, very small things, causing or altering or changing very big things, is God's speciality.

Don't underestimate the small things, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

But I am also interested in Gods judgement. If we cannot help what we do then how are we responsible for sin. What is our conscience, just a make believe guilt trip put on us by nature. Or are we made in Gods image as well and more than the sum of our physical dedeterminism.

Some are good vessels made for a good use, and some are bad vessels only suited for a bad use, and it's my theory that God needed both for a time, maybe to shape or mold or form (or grow) the good ones into what they were meant to be maybe, but once that process is complete, then there is no further purpose or use for the bad ones after that, other than maybe only being brought back in the same kind of place(s) again, to do the very same kinds of things again, should it or they ever be needed again after that, etc, but the prior good ones will be gone, so it will only be only if other new ones are to be made or shaped or molded or created again after that, etc. I don't think the bad ones are consciously aware of it every single time, etc.

God Bless.

 

[stevevw]

God specializes in showing us or teaching us how some of the most very smallest, or seemingly most insignificant things, can lead to big changes, or can make a big huge difference in things much of the time, etc.

Have you ever heard of chaos theory? Only it's not chaos, but determinism in action, etc. And that's according to the way God determined it, etc. Very, very small things, causing or altering or changing very big things, is God's speciality.

Don't underestimate the small things, etc.

God Bless.

I don't think its the way God designed things. Its a fallen state, But we have the ability with God to rise above our fallen state into the spiritual realm of God. What does Christ say, I am the truth and the truth will set you free. Free from the fallen deterministic forces that inevitably lead to death. We can choose life but not this life but a life beyond this world.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't think its the way God designed things. Its a fallen state, But we have the ability with God to rise above our fallen state into the spiritual realm of God. What does Christ say, I am the truth and the truth will set you free. Free from the fallen deterministic forces that inevitably lead to death. We can choose life but not this life but a life beyond this world.

What you are talking about sounds a lot like the opposite of free will, that by somehow embracing or finding the power in your own will, and your own strength, you will somehow be able to make your own will and strength rise above submitting to God's will, which is in discovering the truth of how you were made by Him, etc?

But, then again, what do I know, but I just know that I have found a lot of peace and very great comfort in this, etc, finally laying down my own life and will and wants for His, etc. No longer struggling in my own will and strength to somehow attain something in my own strength and everything, etc. I'm learning much, much more about how He uniquely made me, etc.

God Bless.

 

[stevevw]

Some are good vessels made for a good use, and some are bad vessels only suited for a bad use, and it's my theory that God needed both for a time, maybe to shape or mold or form (or grow) the good ones into what they were meant to be maybe, but once that process is complete, then there is no further purpose or use for the bad ones after that, other than maybe only being brought back in the same kind of place(s) again, to do the very same kinds of things again, should it or they ever be needed again after that, etc, but the prior good ones will be gone, so it will only be only if other new ones are to be made or shaped or molded or created again after that, etc. I don't think the bad ones are consciously aware of it every single time, etc.

God Bless.

That sounds like the Hindu beliefs of reincarnation. But then the ultimate goal is to achieve Nevarna. So this takes choosing a different life until you reach perfection.

I think theres some truth to this as far as morality is concerned. That we are moral beings and know right from wrong. Our conscience bears witness to this. So its a continual battle against our sinful nature and to overcome it. It requires accountability and it seems this is a fundemental aspect of being human and living together.

But not because of evolution. Evolution is inadequate for explaining morality. You can't inherit moral genes. We are not animals who live off instincts alone. Theres not always a rational answer for morality.

It seems the one thing that defines humans above all else is our ability to be moral, to believe in gods and move ourselves into a higher order of being where we are empathetic to others suffering and have in us ideas like justice, fairness, kindness but also hate and injustice. These ideas speak about accountability, responsibility for ones behaviour.

 

[Neogaia777]

.

That sounds like the Hindu beliefs of reincarnation. But then the ultimate goal is to achieve Nevarna. So this takes choosing a different life until you reach perfection.

I think theres some truth to this as far as morality is concerned. That we are moral beings and know right from wrong. Our conscience bears witness to this. So its a continual battle against our sinful nature and to overcome it. It requires accountability and it seems this is a fundemental aspect of being human and living together.

But not because of evolution. Evolution is inadequate for explaining morality. You can't inherit moral genes. We are not animals who live off instincts alone. Theres not always a rational answer for morality.

It seems the one thing that defines humans above all else is our ability to be moral, to believe in gods and move ourselves into a higher order of being where we are empathetic to others suffering and have in us ideas like justice, fairness, kindness but also hate and injustice. These ideas speak about accountability, responsibility for ones behaviour.

I'm going to retire now for a little bit, but I leave you in peace friend.

God Bless.

 

[Bradskii]

Why, we know we have consciousness but no one can explain how that happens, how a neuron can produce subjective experience. Yet we know its true, we have consciousness. Its just one of those subjective things we cannot fully explain.

But we know what determines our decisions. It isn't subjective. There are objective reasons why we choose. If you disagree, then present a decision that wasn't determined by anything.

This idera that we need an example where determinism is not the cause is a false representation. It may be that free will overcomes the deterministic causes. So there will still be deterministic causes but they can be overidden.

Then give me an example.

They prefer to suffer. I don't think so, give them credit.

Yes, it is their preference. Unless they are coerced in some way, nobody does something that they'd prefer not to do. Don't confuse wanting to do something with preferring to do it. I want to laze around this afternoon, but I prefer to go to the gym.

 

[Bradskii]

As you said its your opinion and opinions are subjective and not fact.

I've not said anything different.

Not knowing doesn't mean anything either way. Not being able to articulate an alternative doesn't mean there are none.

If you don't have an alternative, all you can do is deny the one given.

I keep saying that this is a false analogy. Free will is not the absense of pre determined processes. Its the act in opposition to pre determined processes. going against those determinations.

Then give me an example when a decision wasn't determined. And look, I'm getting really tired of asking this. Either do it or admit that you can't.

I think the idea of no free will itself is an example. If everything is determined and we have no free will then we are not responsible for the wrong decisions we make or the abilities we have.

Correct.

Yet we all act and live like we are responsible and that individuals are given credit for what they do.

Yes, we do.

 

[stevevw]

What you are talking about sounds a lot like the opposite of free will, that by somehow embracing or finding the power in your own will, and your own strength, you will somehow be able to make your own will and strength rise above submitting to God's will, which is in discovering the truth of how you were made by Him, etc?

Actually it seems to be the opposite and thats the strange paradox. Its but submitting, handing over to God that the freedom comes to rise above. The same principle I think applies generally.

We know in AA for example that substance abuse is known as 'self will run riot'. Self will out of control. The addicts life has become unmanagable and they have lost control.

But the first few steps in the 12 step program are about admitting the problem and handing over control to a higher power. That could be the AA or NA group itself or God or any other god so long as its not your will and power and the higher power is good, is positive for you.

In doing so the person regains control over their life and are free from the restraints that caused them to lose control and become unmangable. By giving in they win, by surrender their will they gain free will to make different choices. To choose not to take that first drink or drug that will take their freedom away.

But, then again, what do I know, but I just know that I have found a lot of peace and very great comfort in this, etc, finally laying down my own life and will and wants for His, etc. No longer struggling in my own will and strength to somehow attain something in my own strength and everything, etc. I'm learning much, much more about how He uniquely made me, etc.

God Bless.

I think there is something in surrendering our will to God to then gain the freedom over this world and its deterministic processes. We become more than the sum of our physical makeup and conditions.

Maybe its that we are physical, mental and spiritual beings and we negelect the spiritual. Maslows hierarchy of needs begins with the physical needs but ends with the transcendal and spiritual needs. Maybe its in this level of need that we find true happiness and freedom.

 

[NotreDame]

Please don't say 'we'. I know how things happen (or at least, in my opinion, I know how things happen). I've spent enough time explaining it. So what you are saying is that you don't think that you know. Which is fair enough. You don't have an alternative.

But bear this in mind. I can't prove I'm right. But you can prove me wrong. By giving a single example of a decision that was not determined by anything at all.

Very likely, given the subject under discussion, it is impossible to prove, establish, demonstrate your requested negative of “example of a decision that was not determined by anything at all.”

Now, you might reply establishing “a decision that was” a result of the freedom of a person to act or refrain from acting, necessarily excludes Determinism and renders the free decision to act or refrain from acting as a “decision that was not determined by anything at all.” Yet, considering the inherent metaphysical composition of the subject matter of free will and/or Determinism, then at best a presumption, the degree of confidence for the presumption may vary, free will exists which isn’t strong enough to establish the negative of “giving a single example of a decision that was not determined by anything at all.”

I find the definition of Free Will by the famed Christian apologist, renowned philosophy professor Alvin Plantinga, at my beloved University of Notre Dame, a suitable, adequate, and sensible meaning. From his book, “God, Freedom, and Evil,” Plantinga defined free will as, “If a person is free with respect to a given action, then he is free to perform that action and free to refrain from performing it; no antecedent conditions and/or causal laws determine that he will perform form the action, or that he won't. It is within his power, at the time in question, to take or perform the action and within his power to refrain from it.”

— God, Freedom, and Evil by Alvin Plantinga

I’m unaware of evidence establishing or showing my actions, or refraining from acting, is determined by someone or something else. I’m equally unaware of evidence someone or something other than myself is determining to act or not to act. Ostensibly, I am the entity deciding when to act, how to act, or when to not act as there isn’t any evidence something or someone, is strongly causing, or I am thinking of what to do, or not to do, and then deciding which and then deciding the action or inaction, thereby establishing the Cogito, thanks Des Cartes, and my Cogito the cause for the action/inaction. To be sure, I’m not advocating a lack of evidence for Determinism is evidence for free will and what I did articulate does not make this point.

Preceding causes, such as Big Bang, God created us and is omniscient of what we will do or not, do not necessarily establish or show our actions or inactions are determined for us.

Whether there must exist at least some alternative for free will, to run or not to run/ride a bike/hop/skip, known as Principle of Alternative Possibilities, is a fascinating topic that has occupied academia and philosophy since at least the 70s. William Lane Craig, invoking inspiration from the Frankfurt Case(s)/Illustrations has espoused the interesting proposition alternatives are not necessary to free will.

According to Craig, “I am explicitly a libertarian about freedom of the will, and so there should be no doubt about that. I just deny the so-called Principle of Alternative Possibilities, that the ability to do otherwise in a given situation is a necessary condition of libertarian freedom….This suggests that what is critical to free will is not the ability to choose differently in identical circumstances but rather not being caused to do something by causes other than oneself. It is up to me how I choose, and nothing determines my choice. Sometimes philosophers call this agent causation. The agent himself is the cause of his actions.”

Craig’s POV is fascinating to me, and its logic possesses a persuasive quality but his view isn’t ineluctable. I’m ambivalent as to the veracity of his specific POV but worth sharing given the subject matter.

 

[stevevw]

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I'm going to retire now for a little bit, but I leave you in peace friend.

God Bless.

No worries thankyou and all the best