stevevw
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- Nov 4, 2013
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Its different to experiences with psychedelic drugs. For one the person is awake and is rather distorting real life experiences whereas the NDE is person is unconscious or dead.Parnia explains that this means the traditional NDE, where the subject thinks they are dying or have died and experiences stereotypical events such as life events recalled and assessed, meeting deceased relatives who tell them to return, a tunnel with a light at the end, and so on. He describes these as involving "lucid-vast-hyperconsciousness, separation, recognition of death, moral/ethical re-evaluation of life (all intentions/actions), and return".
He does not define or explain what 'lucid-vast-hyperconsciousness' means - though it is reminiscent of the lucid sense of universe-encompassing consciousness that can be experienced with psychedelic drugs, but with a death or near-death motif.
Parnia does explain 'lucid-vast-hyperconsciousness'. Its a stronger and more real consciousness that experiencers say is more real than everyday conscious experiences and a place they feel more at home with than real life.
That is part of the evidence that the experiencers truely believe that their experience was the most real thing they had ever experienced to the point that it profoundly changes them and is remembered in vibid detail for years if not the rest of their life. As opposed to a dream or imagination which is fragmented, hazy and easy to forget deatils.
Except the NDE are different from dream like states and Parnia points this out several times. Theres destinct differences in dream like recall and NDE in clarity, richness and recall of specific details which are often consistent.Parnia says these are different from other kinds of recalled experiences (the others involved memories or perceptions of being conscious during cardiac arrest (CA), or non-death-related dream-like experiences).
IOW, when some people are dying of CA, they have vivid dream-like experiences of dying or being dead.
Actually 10 to 20 seconds after the heart stops oxygen stops to the brain and it flatlines. There may be some activity in the brain stem for a couple of minutes but that cannot account for the rich consciousness that occurs in the conscious regions of the outer brain.Brain function typically continues for around 3 minutes after circulation stops; the EEG may become undetectable well before that.
Yes but the point is the conscious activity was happening in a compromised and flatlined brain which should not be possible.The conclusion suggested that "The emergence of normal EEG may reflect... a biomarker of consciousness, lucidity and Recalled Experience of Death...". IOW, a normal EEG may indicate consciousness, lucidity and RED.
Yes and he also states that NDE are different to delusions and distortions caused by excitotoxicity/mitochondrial dysfunction/oxidative stress, inflammation and apoptosis.Parnia notes elsewhere that "... resuscitation causes ischemia–reperfusion injury (IRI) – a cascade of excitotoxicity/mitochondrial dysfunction/oxidative stress, inflammation and apoptosis – with brain hemodynamic/vascular, no-reflow, cerebrovascular, microthrombotic, intracranial pressure derangements." IOW, severe physiological brain trauma.
Toxicity, oxidative stress and other compromises to the brain result in fragmented, detached and confused states. Whereas NDE are the complete opposite, clear, vivid and organised and a positive experience as opposed to scary and reactionary.
As mentioned NDE is different, has a different fingerprint to dreamlike and delusional states from toxicity and hallucinogens. Parnia and others propose that consciousness may be fully released from its inhibitors that allow us to function in real life thus allowing hyperconsciousness.Parnia also says, "Neuroscientifically, body/brain dysfunction causes inhibition/disinhibition of inherent pathways". This is similar to the effect of psychedelics which also inhibit/disinhibit inherent pathways, resulting in crosstalk between normally isolated areas of the brain.
Thats why for example that NDE sight transcends ordinary sense sight and NDE'ers can have supervision, see 360 degrees, at a distance, see through physical substrates and the blind having supervision.
Parnia and others clearly state that the dreamlike and delusional states caused by toxicity, lack of oxygen ect are different to NDE. They even tested the brain waves associated and found that the brain waves of NDE are like real lived events in the higher order and consciuous areas of the brain. While dreamlike and delusional memories and experiences are fragmented, scary and easily forgotten.In all cases, recall of the experience necessarily occurred after recovery from this reperfusion trauma, so it is plausible that some of the experiences recalled may not be (only) a product of CA-induced hypoxia, but (also) of the reperfusion trauma.
And like I keep saying this is different to NDE. Just use logic. Something that poisons or deprives the body and brain is not going to be well integrated and clear as produced by NDE.This does not follow. Hyper-vivid experiences occur in other situations where the brain is compromised, including the influence of psychedelics, and there is evidence of a flood of brain activity that occurs both during extreme hypoxia and during reperfusion injury.
I am not sure what you mean. The post-hoc recolections of NDE'ers is not fragmented but clear as day. Thats the difference to the confused, fragments memories of those affected by toxins, a compromised brain without NDE.The structuring of fragmented experience is typically post-hoc, by narrative generation plausibly threading 'events' together.
In fact as opposed to delusions and dreams which are never clearly remembers and easily forgotten or realised as being delusions NDE'ers will clearly remember in vivid detail their experiences for the rest of their life and never deminishing. While believing that it was not a dream but more real that everyday life.
Yes and in these cases its usually as we would expect if the physical brain caused consciousness. We see recall of a variety of events and people that are important in the present day. Often those alive who mean the most. Whereas NDE'ers mainly meet deceased loved ones even those they have never met which are later verified.It's also possible that such a disinhibited rush of brain activity could include salient memories (of important events, friends & relatives, etc).
Many of NDE happen in an instant, transportation to a distant place in an instant. A life review in an instant. Such rich and wide knowledge in what amounts to an instant of time in the real world.Further, our sense of the passage of time is tied to the number of salient experiential events rather than a regular internal clock, so a vivid flood of memories might well be interpreted as occurring over an extended time.
Do you honestly think that any study into the realness of NDE would not look at the objections that claim NDE is just the result of dreams, imaginations and delusions from other causes.I don't claim any certainty that these suggestions apply to the reports of Parnia's subjects, but that they are possible and/or plausible.
But the whole point is to factor out those with hypoxia compared to those who had a genuine NDE. Why would he expect more to have NDE associated with hypoxia when they have said that hypoxia effects are different to NDE. Seems a strange thing to say.Without access to the original published papers, I can't comment - I read the van Lommel paper abstract, and the only interesting finding was that "Depth of the experience was affected by sex, surviving CPR outside hospital, and fear before cardiac arrest. Significantly more patients who had an NDE, especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR" which could suggest that the more severe the episode the deeper the NDE. He was also puzzled by how few NDEs there were when all had suffered hypoxia, as if he expected everyone who suffered hypoxia to have an NDE(!)
I agree the AWARE study was to try and sort out the genuine NDE from other causes that may have some similarities. Being such a controversial and easily misrepresented issue there needs to be some scrutiny and verification. Its a bit like the alien and UFP issue.With regards to reports of NDEs of real events (that could not have been experienced by the patient through normal means) the reason for Parnia's AWARE I & AWARE II studies was the morass of unverifiable hearsay stories, but no definitive account that had held up under close investigation. That's why he put images in the CA rooms, out of direct sight (which were not reported in any experience).
But as far as I understand the reserach is still ongoing but there is a growing body of supporting evidence. Like the brain activity tests which show NDE activity is happening in the higher though and conscious regians with brain waves similiar to real lived events rather than dreams or delusions.
Parnia has worked with NDERF. They have many verified testimonies of NDE. These are not dreams or hallucinations from a compromised system.
Archives
www.nderf.org
Ok I have included a link above to NDERF which has both personal testimoney and research studies.But if you have any recent verifiable reports of such 'impossible' NDE experiences, post a link or reference. I spent considerable time looking a few years back, and found only unsubstantiated claims (some proactive journalist researchers debunked some of the 'best' examples around at the time).
Personal testimonies are another piece of evidence. A different type to objective evidence though aspects of experiences can be verified. But the quality, believability, consistency, detail and effects give insight into the qualitative aspect of NDE and consciousness that objective analysis cannot give.
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