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Perhaps if we're talking about extrinsic conditioning, but in context the discussion was an intrinsic encouragement. So perhaps I should have made it clearer that I was specifically addressing the "you'll use that as an encouragement" rather than a more general understanding of behavior modification.(en/dis)couragement is a form of stimulus. Behavior can be affected by either whether there is free will or not.
There seems to be a mental block with this.This is a distinctly different question from what I asked, which is should a person strive to be a good person? How could they do so if they lack free will?
If you have an intrinsic desire to improve (that's the type of person that you are) then it'll likely happen whether there is free will or not.Perhaps if we're talking about extrinsic conditioning, but in context the discussion was an intrinsic encouragement. So perhaps I should have made it clearer that I was specifically addressing the "you'll use that as an encouragement" rather than a more general understanding of behavior modification.
Only because the concept you're expressing is incoherent.There seems to be a mental block with this.
I don't think we could evaluate the moral character of mechanical processes, so it matters a lot when we're talking about what it means to be a "good" person. There is no moral or immoral character to the nitrogen cycle, or the diesel cycle, or whatever other mechanical process we decide to look at. It's only when a moral agent is involved that morality becomes a question, which if we don't have free will there is no agent involved. Just a machine, and the fact that you keep talking about an active role in these things shows that deep down you don't really believe the nonsense you claim to believe...so why do you persist in it?If you are a good person, then you'll make decisions that reflect that. Whether free will exists or not. Seriously, it won't matter one way or the other.
If it exists, then there's some 'you' somewhere that somehow is making the decisions. If it doesn't exist then you'll still feel like that the 'you' somewhere is somehow making the decisions, but it's the antecedent conditions determining what you decide. The result will be the same.
If you're not a good person then tough luck. The decisions you make will reflect that. Whether free will exists or not. So you'll end up stealing wallets. Are you doomed to do that for ever? No. As Hans said above, if you are punished that might be a cause that will effect a change in your personality. And that could happen whether free will exists or not.
It's rather strange you seem to think there's some superiority in coming to this conclusion, but there's no way to arrive at it without compromising the entire process of rational thought. You choke on a gnat, but swallow camels.But yeah, I understand. We all want to be the moral determinator of our decisions. You want to be in control of yours. But don't worry. It will always feel exactly like you're in control.
No free will doesn't prevent us from labelling an act as good or bad. Why would it? If the universe has determined that you are the person who steals wallets then you are a bad person. Stealing wallets is a bad thing. There's no other way to describe it. And we'll stop you from doing it because it's a bad thing. We'll imprison you as a discouragement to both you and others. If you keep going it we'll keep locking you up. Hopefully we can rehabilitate you so you won't do it again.I don't think we could evaluate the moral character of mechanical processes...
These things are value-statements, and such judgments can only belong to a moral agent.No free will doesn't prevent us from labelling an act as good or bad.
So now the universe is making value judgments, in addition to "deciding" your life and making all of your decisions for you?Why would it? If the universe has determined that you are the person who steals wallets then you are a bad person.
Oh? Some call it taxation.Stealing wallets is a bad thing. There's no other way to describe it.
All of these active agent nouns and verbs. Why aren't you describing it as if these are just mechanistic happenings of a material universe, but a deliberate course of action by a thinking public?And we'll stop you from doing it because it's a bad thing. We'll imprison you as a discouragement to both you and others. If you keep going it we'll keep locking you up. Hopefully we can rehabilitate you so you won't do it again.
I don't care whether you believe or not. It's a conclusion that I've come to. It only affects me. No-one else. There's no changes I'm demanding you make. And you won't notice any changes in me either. Don't worry about it.So why are you fighting what you claimed all of us want to believe?
How does "it makes me feel good/bad" differ from external en/dis-couragement? Again both are stimuli.Perhaps if we're talking about extrinsic conditioning, but in context the discussion was an intrinsic encouragement. So perhaps I should have made it clearer that I was specifically addressing the "you'll use that as an encouragement" rather than a more general understanding of behavior modification.
This is precisely why I have thought about objecting to the term "determinism" for awhile. (I held back because it is apparently the standard term in philosophy.) It leads people to think that determinism requires a determinizer. It does not. As far as I can tell, it is nothing more than the events of now are "determined" by the prior state of things, i.e., contingent and causal, including any randomness that arises from the indeterminancy of physical systems. So no, your belief in free will in a universe without free will of the kind you think you have does not need to be the result of some being or entity deciding anything about you.Look, as I've repeatedly said I really don't get why you're arguing for such a ridiculous idea. For me it really comes down to a simple truth, if I don't have free will the universe(or God) has decided I must believe in free will. And if I do have free will, then I have no reason to even bother considering the ridiculous proposition that I don't. So either I either use my free will to believe in free will, or I have no basis to trust any of the considerations I have made over my beliefs and actions.
I don't care whether you believe or not. It's a conclusion that I've come to. It only affects me. No-one else. There's no changes I'm demanding you make. And you won't notice any changes in me either. Don't worry about it.
You seem to misunderstand, because what I have stated doesn't require a determinizer. The notion that my choices are pre-determined, whether or not that includes random chance, rather than being an act of my agency, is enough for my objection to stand. Because either I have no say in what I believe, and so will believe I have free will purely because of prior states in the universe, or I have the choice to reject an understanding of causality that purports I make no genuine choices.This is precisely why I have thought about objecting to the term "determinism" for awhile. (I held back because it is apparently the standard term in philosophy.) It leads people to think that determinism requires a determinizer. It does not. As far as I can tell, it is nothing more than the events of now are "determined" by the prior state of things, i.e., contingent and causal, including any randomness that arises from the indeterminancy of physical systems. So no, your belief in free will in a universe without free will of the kind you think you have does not need to be the result of some being or entity deciding anything about you.
I didn't ask why are you trying to convince me, I asked why are you willing to accept a conclusion that you yourself admit you want to reject? Especially since the only thing it takes to reject it is making the choice to reject it, since making that choice demonstrates you do in fact have free will.I don't care whether you believe or not. It's a conclusion that I've come to. It only affects me. No-one else. There's no changes I'm demanding you make. And you won't notice any changes in me either. Don't worry about it.
Sure, but if my conscious experience is an illusion cast by the physical object of my brain then there can be no causal link between my feelings and my actions. It's only when my feelings cause me, as an agent, to act differently that such encouragement/discouragement matters. If the hypothesis that my experience of agency is an illusion were actually true, my feelings would be ephemeral to the whole experience. Since my choices aren't playing any causal part in the drama, intrinsic motivation is simply irrelevant.How does "it makes me feel good/bad" differ from external en/dis-couragement? Again both are stimuli.
It would help if you didn't name the preported determinizer then.You seem to misunderstand, because what I have stated doesn't require a determinizer.
I renew my objection to "pre-determined" for the prior reasons implying agency in determination.The notion that my choices are pre-determined, whether or not that includes random chance, rather than being an act of my agency, is enough for my objection to stand.
Now you're going to will free will into existence. LOL.Because either I have no say in what I believe, and so will believe I have free will purely because of prior states in the universe, or I have the choice to reject an understanding of causality that purports I make no genuine choices.
If I can choose to believe in free will, then that choice alone is evidence that I have free will.
If free will does not exist, than my beliefs are not in my power to change and so I will believe free will because of prior states.
I'm making any of those arguments, not against free will or for brains in jars.In either case, I have no reason to accept any argument that claims I don't have free will, anymore than I would accept an argument that I was a brain in a vat. The statement is patently absurd, but people take it seriously because of prior philosophical commitments require they must.
That's more of a matter of convenience, rather than to imply that those things were actually active in decision-making.It would help if you didn't name the preported determinizer then.
If my decisions are purely the result of prior states, the term we use to describe the situation makes no difference. No matter how we describe it, it's functionally equivalent.I renew my objection to "pre-determined" for the prior reasons implying agency in determination.
If I have any genuine choice, then it demonstrates that the hypothesis that my agency is an illusion is a false conclusion. And if I don't, it really doesn't matter because the prior conditions are such that I'm going to believe I have agency no matter what. In either case, it makes no sense to argue that I don't.Now you're going to will free will into existence. LOL.
Didn't say it does, simply that it's absurd to argue that I don't. Because arguing that I don't implies I have the power to make decisions about what is most reasonable to conclude, rather than my choices being causally fixed by prior states of my brain.If there is no free will, but the prior state of your brain and its inputs convinces you that you have free will that does not mean that you do.
Neither indeterminancy, nor determinancy is sufficient to explain the phenomenon of deliberate choice. Though if I understand what you're saying here, I see no reason to object to the statement as presented. Simply because people have convinced themselves that free will does not exist, is not a reason to accept that it doesn't.If there is free will and you interpret things around you to indicate that you do not have free will (perhaps you heard some "clockwork universe" talk), that does not mean that you don't.
Except in the one case we're involved in its operation when we dispute it. So while it certainly could be the case that free will somehow doesn't exist, the implication of that conclusion is that my foundation for engagement in the question is undermined. If I don't have free will, I will believe whatever the prior states dictate. So my making the choice to believe is sufficient grounds for me to believe, because there's no reason to consider the alternative as a serious possibility.Just like the belief/non-belief in a god, belief/non-belief in free will does not determine that it exists or not.
The question isn't whether it actually exists, the question is what is more reasonable to believe. As you seem to have indicated, the hypothesis is on the same order as brains in jars. Which, while possible, is a ludicrous conclusion to come to. So any metaphysical commitments that result in such belief are suspect. Though the statement of that orator is self defeating, since he claims not to know but then seems to imply that it doesn't by denying the reality of choice in the matter. As is clear from this thread, people choose to believe that free will does not exist and people choose to believe that free will does exist. The question is, why would someone defend something that is functionally equivalent to believing they were a brain in a jar? Why is one treated as philosophical garbage, and the other as a serious proposition when they are on the same order as each other?I'm making any of those arguments, not against free will or for brains in jars.
As a great orator once said "I don't know if there is free will or not, but I have no choice in the matter, and neither do you."
But that's the problem, demonstration of genuine choice about anything. It's my understanding that the genuine debate is if the perception of free will is genuine or not and it remains undecided.That's more of a matter of convenience, rather than to imply that those things were actually active in decision-making.
If my decisions are purely the result of prior states, the term we use to describe the situation makes no difference. No matter how we describe it, it's functionally equivalent.
If I have any genuine choice, then it demonstrates that the hypothesis that my agency is an illusion is a false conclusion. And if I don't, it really doesn't matter because the prior conditions are such that I'm going to believe I have agency no matter what. In either case, it makes no sense to argue that I don't.
Your arguments and mine are based on the the various things that have been fed into our minds and how we process them with our brains. Making arguments is not evidence for free choice of argument.Didn't say it does, simply that it's absurd to argue that I don't. Because arguing that I don't implies I have the power to make decisions about what is most reasonable to conclude, rather than my choices being causally fixed by prior states of my brain.
A couple more statements that being able to make an argument on one side of something is evidence you made a free choice. It doesn't make it so.Neither indeterminancy, nor determinancy is sufficient to explain the phenomenon of deliberate choice. Though if I understand what you're saying here, I see no reason to object to the statement as presented. Simply because people have convinced themselves that free will does not exist, is not a reason to accept that it doesn't.
Except in the one case we're involved in its operation when we dispute it. So while it certainly could be the case that free will somehow doesn't exist, the implication of that conclusion is that my foundation for engagement in the question is undermined. If I don't have free will, I will believe whatever the prior states dictate. So my making the choice to believe is sufficient grounds for me to believe, because there's no reason to consider the alternative as a serious possibility.
That is weird. The title of the thread is "free will and determinism". It sure sounds like the existence of free will is a question of importance to someone.The question isn't whether it actually exists, the question is what is more reasonable to believe.
Woah there pal. I have not. "Brains in jars" is a silly fantasy of an idea, right down there with "the Universe is a simulation". It has zero evidence behind it. Just dumb fantasy. The existence of free will not only seems possible, but we certainly *think* we have free will. I just don't know how natural causality works to make it possible in minds generated by brains.As you seem to have indicated, the hypothesis is on the same order as brains in jars.
I find all "metaphysics' suspect. P)Which, while possible, is a ludicrous conclusion to come to. So any metaphysical commitments that result in such belief are suspect.
No, it isn't. I think you might misunderstand. It is just the same statement I just made in a more pithy form. It says nothing more than that the reality of the existence/non-existence of free will (or in the same vein, a god) is not affected by what you or I believe to be the case. It either is or isn't independent of what our current opinion is.Though the statement of that orator is self defeating, since he claims not to know but then seems to imply that it doesn't by denying the reality of choice in the matter.
They certainly *think* they have that choice. It is the unanswered question, perception, or reality?As is clear from this thread, people choose to believe that free will does not exist and people choose to believe that free will does exist.
Oh, come on! Even if we take "brains in jars" seriously for a second, it only involves tricking the sensory inputs and motor feedback of the central nervous system. It doesn't change whether the mind created by that brain has free will or not.The question is, why would someone defend something that is functionally equivalent to believing they were a brain in a jar?
Because brains with active minds come inside skulls, not jars. (Are "brains in jars" a philosophical argument? I thought it was some sort of sci-fi based fantasy. I kind of hope that is the philosophical garbage of which you speak, the alternative is not a good look.)Why is one treated as philosophical garbage, and the other as a serious proposition when they are on the same order as each other?
If the debate were ontological, then it's bound to result in a stalemate. But the debate is epistemological, and it boils down to the question of whether our experiences are trustworthy. If they are trustworthy, than we can have confidence that free will exists and the problem becomes explaining how that could be so. If they are not, then any epistemological conclusions we make are suspect.But that's the problem, demonstration of genuine choice about anything. It's my understanding that the genuine debate is if the perception of free will is genuine or not and it remains undecided.
It is completely irrational to argue that the arguments themselves are irrelevant to our conclusions. Which is the case if it is purely a matter of prior conditions, rather than our agency. And there's more at stake then just free will because the questions boil down to basic epistemology and metaphysics. It seems abundantly clear that there is no material mind, and so if we adopt materialist/physicalist metaphysical commitments we must reduce the mind to the physical operations of the brain either directly or indirectly. Which means the content of the arguments must be irrelevant, since they belong to the mind. What we ate for breakfast would have a larger causal influence than the abstract content of our thoughts, because it may alter the physical constitution of our thinking organ.Your arguments and mine are based on the the various things that have been fed into our minds and how we process them with our brains. Making arguments is not evidence for free choice of argument.
No, you're right. Our experience of choice could be completely illusion. But it is irrational to believe such a thing, just as even though it could be that our experience of the physical world is completely illusion but it is irrational to believe such a thing. Our experience of agency is fundamental to our experience of self, so if it is illusion than so must be our experience of self.A couple more statements that being able to make an argument on one side of something is evidence you made a free choice. It doesn't make it so.
Which we must first flesh out the metaphysical and epistemological commitments in order to decide. It's not that it is not an end goal, but we haven't done the leg work necessary to make any kind of inferences. We must first work out the epistemics, then the metaphysics.That is weird. The title of the thread is "free will and determinism". It sure sounds like the existence of free will is a question of importance to someone.
What makes it a silly fantasy idea? How did you make that determination?Woah there pal. I have not. "Brains in jars" is a silly fantasy of an idea, right down there with "the Universe is a simulation". It has zero evidence behind it. Just dumb fantasy. The existence of free will not only seems possible, but we certainly *think* we have free will. I just don't know how natural causality works to make it possible in minds generated by brains.
We all have metaphysical commitments, if we haven't examined them then we have simply adopted a metaphysical position uncritically.I find all "metaphysics' suspect. P)
Nope, it implies that there is no choice in what we believe on the matter. It isn't "my belief has no effect" but equivalent to not having any input on the belief.No, it isn't. I think you might misunderstand. It is just the same statement I just made in a more pithy form. It says nothing more than that the reality of the existence/non-existence of free will (or in the same vein, a god) is not affected by what you or I believe to be the case. It either is or isn't independent of what our current opinion is.
And how can we move from perception to reality, if not to take our perceptions as essentially trustworthy? If we must be suspicious of our perceptions, we simply can't determine anything is true. So why is external world skepticism less rational than internal world skepticism?They certainly *think* they have that choice. It is the unanswered question, perception, or reality?
When did we establish that the mind was created by the brain? Seems to be a metaphysical statement, which you claimed you found all such things suspect.Oh, come on! Even if we take "brains in jars" seriously for a second, it only involves tricking the sensory inputs and motor feedback of the central nervous system. It doesn't change whether the mind created by that brain has free will or not.
Again, why is external world skepticism less rational than internal world skepticism when the only basis we have for certainty of our own existence is our internal sense, not our external sense?Because brains with active minds come inside skulls, not jars. (Are "brains in jars" a philosophical argument? I thought it was some sort of sci-fi based fantasy. I kind of hope that is the philosophical garbage of which you speak, the alternative is not a good look.)
I'm not debating you about free will. I'm debating your assertions that choosing free will demonstrates free choice. (And apparently about brains in jars.)If the debate were ontological, then it's bound to result in a stalemate. But the debate is epistemological, and it boils down to the question of whether our experiences are trustworthy. If they are trustworthy, than we can have confidence that free will exists and the problem becomes explaining how that could be so. If they are not, then any epistemological conclusions we make are suspect.
Arguments are pointless without evidence to back them up. I need data. The data on free will is inconclusive.It is completely irrational to argue that the arguments themselves are irrelevant to our conclusions. Which is the case if it is purely a matter of prior conditions, rather than our agency. And there's more at stake then just free will because the questions boil down to basic epistemology and metaphysics. It seems abundantly clear that there is no material mind, and so if we adopt materialist/physicalist metaphysical commitments we must reduce the mind to the physical operations of the brain either directly or indirectly. Which means the content of the arguments must be irrelevant, since they belong to the mind. What we ate for breakfast would have a larger causal influence than the abstract content of our thoughts, because it may alter the physical constitution of our thinking organ.
If the experience of choice could be an illusion why would it be *irrational* to come to that conclusion (believe it)?No, you're right. Our experience of choice could be completely illusion. But it is irrational to believe such a thing, just as even though it could be that our experience of the physical world is completely illusion but it is irrational to believe such a thing. Our experience of agency is fundamental to our experience of self, so if it is illusion than so must be our experience of self.
Brain jars don't exist.Which we must first flesh out the metaphysical and epistemological commitments in order to decide. It's not that it is not an end goal, but we haven't done the leg work necessary to make any kind of inferences. We must first work out the epistemics, then the metaphysics.
What makes it a silly fantasy idea? How did you make that determination?
No, I don't think you're getting the logic correctly.We all have metaphysical commitments, if we haven't examined them then we have simply adopted a metaphysical position uncritically.
Nope, it implies that there is no choice in what we believe on the matter. It isn't "my belief has no effect" but equivalent to not having any input on the belief.
Are you going to invoke an unsupported concept, the disembrained mind, in support of free will? If you are, just say so, and this will be over, because then we're not talking about the possibility of free will in humans, but some religious concepts instead.And how can we move from perception to reality, if not to take our perceptions as essentially trustworthy? If we must be suspicious of our perceptions, we simply can't determine anything is true. So why is external world skepticism less rational than internal world skepticism?
When did we establish that the mind was created by the brain? Seems to be a metaphysical statement, which you claimed you found all such things suspect.
'cause we looked and there aren't any brains in jars except at the Head Museum.Again, why is external world skepticism less rational than internal world skepticism when the only basis we have for certainty of our own existence is our internal sense, not our external sense?
I made no such assertion, perhaps you should take the time to actually understand my argument.I'm not debating you about free will. I'm debating your assertions that choosing free will demonstrates free choice. (And apparently about brains in jars.)
The "data" is our sense experience directly. Because if our sense perceptions are untrustworthy, then we can't make any a posteriori conclusions.Arguments are pointless without evidence to back them up. I need data. The data on free will is inconclusive.
Because the so-called illusion is required in coming to a conclusion at all. If our conclusions are the result of being swayed by reasoning, we must have some form of agency for that reasoning to mean anything at all.If the experience of choice could be an illusion why would it be *irrational* to come to that conclusion (believe it)?
Oh? And how did you come to that conclusion? How did you determine the external world existed and wasn't an illusion?Brain jars don't exist.
I can only go by what is stated, which is that we "don't have a choice." Now, if you want to read that as affirming that we have a choice, but that choice is simply irrelevant then that's your prerogative, but it seems a rather tortured read.No, I don't think you're getting the logic correctly.
Yes, but that doesn't make the conclusion a rational conclusion. Someone may believe that they have free will, but that belief is inherently irrational. Just as someone may believe that the external world is an illusion, but such a belief is irrational. And both because they are unliveable.If there is free will one could based on the various things they have learned and experiences had, come to believe they don't have free will. (Lot's of people believe in "fate" after all.) Though incorrect it would be a freely made choice.
"the mind?" Why the mind-brain dichotomy if ultimately the mind is just a by-product of the brain?Likewise, if there is not free will the stimuli, etc., could leave the mind to conclude that it had free will when it didn't.
No, but there is a reason to believe that a belief that requires denying the basic trustworthiness of our experiences is self-defeating. Which is what I am arguing, not that free will categorically exists but that the rational belief is that it does exist based purely on our sense perceptions. It's a ground-level belief, and denying it renders any epistemology suspect because it raises the queston that all of our perceptions are ultimately untrustworthy.There is no reason to think the belief state is categorically tied to the truth of the belief claim. Since this "belief claim" is about the capability to make free choices, we do have a sort of weird interaction, but it is still the case that the ability to make a free choice (reflective of reality or not) is dependent entirely on whether free choice exists or not. It does not imply there is no choice in belief.
I am more holistic in the matter, in that it appears clear to me that there is some immaterial aspect of our cognitive capacities but they are tied to our physical bodies in some way. But someone who adopts materialist/physicalist metaphysical commitments must deny that any such thing is possible, and deny the one statement that is essentially entirely undoubtable in our own existence. If the mind is an illusion cast by a physical brain, and has no existence of its own in some fashion then "I think, therefore I am" becomes "I have the illusion of thinking, therefore I imagine I am." Which I hope we both agree is an irrational thought.Are you going to invoke an unsupported concept, the disembrained mind, in support of free will? If you are, just say so, and this will be over, because then we're not talking about the possibility of free will in humans, but some religious concepts instead.
Looked where? How'd you determine that the physical world existed, and wasn't an illusion created in your thoughts?'cause we looked and there aren't any brains in jars except at the Head Museum.
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