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Free will and determinism

ladodgers6

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It's just not a term I'd use. The first definition that comes up is: profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.

Everything that you mentioned is as bad as it gets. Me not using the term 'evil' doesn't mean I think it's not.
Exactly, but to dismiss as just bad or bad choices is absurd, right? Wicked, evil, vile, wretched, sinful, monsters, are all terms that depict a lack of morality. Which leads to the juxaposition between good vs evil. Why have good and evil in the first place. Why must a person be a good citizen and avoid being a criminal? Why did our parent teach us this, in the first place? But we cannot be taught anything without possess the equipment to comprehend both mentally and emotionally. Basically having the parts needed to do what is asked of us. I can't tell a disabled person with no legs how to run a marathon or a person with no arms to climb Mt. Everest. Follow?​
 
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Bradskii

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Exactly, but to dismiss as just bad or bad choices is absurd, right? Wicked, evil, vile, wretched, sinful, monsters, are all terms that depict a lack of morality. Which leads to the juxaposition between good vs evil. Why have good and evil in the first place. Why must a person be a good citizen and avoid being a criminal? Why did our parent teach us this, in the first place? But we cannot be taught anything without possess the equipment to comprehend both mentally and emotionally. Basically having the parts needed to do what is asked of us. I can't tell a disabled person with no legs how to run a marathon or a person with no arms to climb Mt. Everest. Follow?​
Morality is what works. It's a glue that keeps society ticking over. Let me try this as an example. I've used it before. Let's see if you can accept the logic.

Mention incest and everyone baulks at it. There have been isolated examples in a few societies when, under certain conditions it was acceptable, generally between a ruler and a close family member. But it's almost a universal taboo. Because it causes a problem. Genetic disorders are common. Any society that accepted incest would be taking a backward step each and every generation. So it is an evolutionary dead end. It's been selected against.

Now consider if having progeny with a close relative was a biological advantage. Let's say that that was the way that genetics worked. In that case, having sex with someone who wasn't a close relative would then be considered taboo. It would be morally acceptable to have sex with your sister and morally unacceptable to have sex with someone who wasn't related.

Morality isn't something we follow because someone decided an act is right or wrong. An act is right or wrong if it causes harm or not. And we then describe it as moral or immoral.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Morality is what works. It's a glue that keeps society ticking over. Let me try this as an example. I've used it before. Let's see if you can accept the logic.

Mention incest and everyone baulks at it. There have been isolated examples in a few societies when, under certain conditions it was acceptable, generally between a ruler and a close family member. But it's almost a universal taboo. Because it causes a problem. Genetic disorders are common. Any society that accepted incest would be taking a backward step each and every generation. So it is an evolutionary dead end. It's been selected against.

Now consider if having progeny with a close relative was a biological advantage. Let's say that that was the way that genetics worked. In that case, having sex with someone who wasn't a close relative would then be considered taboo. It would be morally acceptable to have sex with your sister and morally unacceptable to have sex with someone who wasn't related.

Morality isn't something we follow because someone decided an act is right or wrong. An act is right or wrong if it causes harm or not. And we then describe it as moral or immoral.

Ah! So, you're a Pragmatist.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I don't think it's a good idea to label people. I do it myself and I end up pigeon holing them. It's not to be recommended.

Ok then. Let's qualify my statement. Your moral position is apparently trending toward some form of, or some inherent subscription to, Pragmatism.

But, since it's never fair to speak for someone else, I'll let you explicate you're own position on Ethics and morality.

How would you like to qualify it then? I have to ask because, frankly, I don't think "true moral principles" work at all times among human beings. From my historical angle, I think human beings are too darn fickle to be morally consistent in such a way as to cite pragmatic undertones as the main moral driver of our species.
 
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Bradskii

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...or some inherent subscription to, Pragmatism.
With a capital P? No, I'd rather not define myself with any concept that begins with a capital letter. Am I pragmatic? Generally so. Am I a Pragmatist. No. Because that excludes nuance.
But, since it's never fair to speak for someone else, I'll let you explicate you're own position on Ethics and morality.
I explain my positions as I go. I've 16,000+ posts on the forum. You've read a lot of them. How you view me is your decision. If you aren't sure on any specific position then ask. I'll answer as honestly as I can.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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With a capital P? No, I'd rather not define myself with any concept that begins with a capital letter. Am I pragmatic? Generally so. Am I a Pragmatist. No. Because that excludes nuance.
It really doesn't exclude nuance. It's not as if there is one and only one position within any particular general category of Ethics. So, so far, I think you qualify as a pragmatist, but we can dispense with the capital P.
I explain my positions as I go. I've 16,000+ posts on the forum. You've read a lot of them. How you view me is your decision. If you aren't sure on any specific position then ask. I'll answer as honestly as I can.

Same here. But I don't usually see anyone knocking on my door asking what I think. In fact, when I see atheists of any stripe on CF, and being that I've spoken to so many of you guys over the past 20 years, 15 here on CF, I get the feeling that most of you couldn't give a rats behind about what I think. Yet, somehow, I'm supposed to gleefully imbibe, digest and assimilate all that you guys bring to the table ... and on that score, I'm going to side with Pascal instead.
 
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partinobodycular

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Look deeper into why or for that matter one finds it personally offensive.

As I've said a couple of times now... I don't find things offensive. So why do you keep asking me this question? As to why other people find things offensive... there's a natural evolutionary tendency to conform to the standard of one's particular group. As an example, some people find it morally reprehensible to purposely harm a dog, others think that it's perfectly acceptable to shoot them, and still others think that they're delicious.

So if you think that morality has a single divine source, then that source certainly has some issues to work out.

But even if one does not adhere to civil Law, their conscience and guilt tell them that it's bad.

Except that my conscience does no such thing. The law is just a human construct. I can understand how some things can be socially beneficial. But from a God's eye view, they're only immoral because we say that they're immoral. Morality is just the evolutionary forerunner of laws. The building blocks of society. No divine authority required. Unless you consider evolution to be God... which wouldn't be an unreasonable assumption... it has all the attributes of God.

You say you love your neighbor, why? What compels you to love your neighbor, in other words where does this originate in your faculties?

I love my neighbor, because hating my neighbor is irrational, stressful, demanding, and offers no personal benefits other than a perceived social acceptance. So, not being concerned with social acceptance, why would I choose to do it?

It's much easier to simply accept my neighbor for what they are, and do unto them what I would have them do unto me. A simple law... without all the sanctimony of morals.

Oddly enough, perhaps I simply love my neighbor because I'm too darn lazy to hate them. A bar that most people find remarkably easy to clear.

But creation has fallen due to sin. This lion eating a gazelle wasn't like this in the Garden. They lived in harmony and death was no where to be found. And this fallen world is going to be restored as it was in the garden through One Man's Act of obedience. He paid the ultimate price with his blood to undo what has been done by another; namely Adam.

Myths and legends can be wonderful things. In this case the tale of the Garden is a rather simple metaphor for man's naivete... and the loss thereof. Evil entered the world when humanity lost its ignorance and with it, its innocence. Humanity recognized the consequences of its own actions. And in recognizing them it categorized them as good and evil... and morality was born.

Unfortunately, the knowledge of good and evil leads to the knowledge of injustice, and humanity ends up fighting against a foe that it's ill equipped to defeat, because it's self perpetuating. One person's just actions, are another person's unjust actions, and the cycle never ends.

Unless you're like me, and you simply choose to end it. Take vengeance to the cross, and leave it there. You won't suddenly go back to the innocence of not seeing the evil, but if you can accept it, like you can accept that lion on the African plains, then you can replace that lost innocence with wisdom... that life is, what life is.

For example: is the following evil acts, The Holocaust, Mass Shootings, Raping children, Murdering Children, 911, Wars where many lives are lost, terrorist attacks and so forth. So, for me to accept that's not evil and it's one person's personal delusion is absurd for me.

To you these things are evil, probably deserving of retribution. To me they're just lions on the African plains... life being life.

My suggestion... stop and think about that lion. If you want him to stop killing gazelles, then don't punish him, make it so that he doesn't have to. People do evil things for a reason, your goal is to remove that reason. And the first step is for you to recognize that your vengeance and retribution is part of the problem.
 
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partinobodycular

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In fact, when I see atheists of any stripe on CF, and being that I've spoken to so many of you guys over the past 20 years, 15 here on CF, I get the feeling that most of you couldn't give a rats behind about what I think.

Personally, what people think, and more importantly why they think it, fascinates me. Yeah, I'm pretty apt to dismiss what people say, but like you and @Bradskii, I've been around a long time. I may dismiss the content of what people say, but the reasoning behind why they say it... ahhhh, that's one of the greatest mysteries in life... how could I possibly dismiss that? It's why I get up in the morning... the remarkable riddle of life.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Personally, what people think, and more importantly why they think it, fascinates me. Yeah, I'm pretty apt to dismiss what people say, but like you and @Bradskii, I've been around a long time. I may dismiss the content of what people say, but the reasoning behind why they say it... ahhhh, that's one of the greatest mysteries in life... how could I possibly dismiss that? It's why I get up in the morning... the remarkable riddle of life.

Just imagine a world where people who don't care what other people think somehow gain political power.
 
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DamianWarS

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I'm sorry, I have no idea what that means.
do you view determinism as not quite able to explain everything but it's better than the rest and are happy with simply not knowing where determinism seems limited?
 
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Bradskii

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do you view determinism as not quite able to explain everything but it's better than the rest and are happy with simply not knowing where determinism seems limited?
No, I think it explains everything in regard to free will.
 
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Bradskii

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What about in regard to everything else?
I don't have a problem with it. I don't want to appear to be avoiding giving a specific answer, but it would help if you were specific about which question you are asking.
 
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DamianWarS

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I don't have a problem with it. I don't want to appear to be avoiding giving a specific answer, but it would help if you were specific about which question you are asking.
it's a response to "everything in regard to free will" so I'm confused. is there in regard to something else where you feel determinism is limited?
 
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Bradskii

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it's a response to "everything in regard to free will" so I'm confused. is there in regard to something else where you feel determinism is limited?
I think we may be talking past each other. How can determinism be limited? The universe is either determinate or it's not (excluding randomness). That's it. Whatever happens has a cause. We're only discussing free will (and its impact on morality), so I haven't discussed how determinism affects anything else.

Because of the near impossibility of maintaining a personal position based on a lack of free will, even amongst the hardest of determinists, then the outcome of a 'free will or no free will' debate is largely academic.
 
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DamianWarS

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Because of the near impossibility of maintaining a personal position based on a lack of free will, even amongst the hardest of determinists, then the outcome of a 'free will or no free will' debate is largely academic.
Haven't your suggested judical reform that is deterministicly driven? Seems to go beyond merely the academic
 
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Fervent

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I think we may be talking past each other. How can determinism be limited? The universe is either determinate or it's not (excluding randomness). That's it. Whatever happens has a cause. We're only discussing free will (and its impact on morality), so I haven't discussed how determinism affects anything else.

Because of the near impossibility of maintaining a personal position based on a lack of free will, even amongst the hardest of determinists, then the outcome of a 'free will or no free will' debate is largely academic.
I'm just curious, but do you believe that your responses in this thread and everyone's responses to yours are determined? If so, what is the purpose of engaging in such a discussion since the content of the discussion has no bearing on its outcome?
 
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Bradskii

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Haven't your suggested judical reform that is deterministicly driven? Seems to go beyond merely the academic
Not 'merely academic'. 'Largely' academic. Not much changes except we might consider judicial reform. And I have already given you my opinion on that. You were asking for 'something else'. What else would you like to discuss?
 
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